Subraces now count as their proper racial type for favored enemy.

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Terenfel
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Subraces now count as their proper racial type for favored enemy.

Post by Terenfel » Tue Aug 06, 2019 7:01 pm

this worries me as a Ranger. i picked only halfling as a favorite enemy be better able to fight the player monsters.. would we be able to change some of our favorite enemies with this change?

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Re: Subraces now count as their proper racial type for favored enemy.

Post by Irongron » Tue Aug 06, 2019 7:05 pm

Yes, I understand the worry, but it is something we really needed to do.

Perhaps one of our more enterprising devs will devise a way for ranger players to reselect their favoured enemies, it would definitely be welcome.

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Re: Subraces now count as their proper racial type for favored enemy.

Post by Sockss » Tue Aug 06, 2019 7:18 pm

The easiest route would be to increase the extra (studied) favoured enemies ranger gets to compensate.
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Re: Subraces now count as their proper racial type for favored enemy.

Post by Hunter548 » Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:25 pm

Irongron wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 7:05 pm
Yes, I understand the worry, but it is something we really needed to do.

Perhaps one of our more enterprising devs will devise a way for ranger players to reselect their favoured enemies, it would definitely be welcome.
Adding a way to change studied favored enemies is an imperfect solution. If it's a one-time affair (That is to say, letting existing rangers adjust their SEs to pick more fitting ones), it doesn't solve the problem of rangers being too-narrow.

If you allow rangers to change their SEs on the fly, that helps more.. except then rangers have to do a lot of maintenance to get access to their core class features. This isn't really viable for grinding or doing dungeons - since by the time you've killed 100 creatures, you're probably close to leaving. That's also not to mention that rangers aren't *that* much more effective vs a favored enemy than classes like WM or rogue are in general and can often times be worse depending on the exact scenario.

Adding more studied enemies is a better option since it solves the problem for all rangers (current and future), and doesn't mean rangers have a larger burden than other classes to get the same benefits.
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Re: Subraces now count as their proper racial type for favored enemy.

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:36 pm

Would definitely be interested to see what would happen if you get a new Studied Enemy slot every 4 levels, versus every 5. Or some other new ratio.
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Re: Subraces now count as their proper racial type for favored enemy.

Post by Sea Shanties » Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:49 pm

For one thing current favored/studied enemy categories could overlap. There's no reason you should have to take half-elves as a FE/SE if you already have elf and human, as one glaring example.

Maybe chosen studied enemies could be bundled in themes or something to cover more ground.

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Re: Subraces now count as their proper racial type for favored enemy.

Post by Ork » Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:57 pm

Honestly why don't we decrease subtypes. Humanoid should qualify for a large majority of player races, and allow players to choose other more flavored selections.

Another option could be granting favored enemies as an action through some sort of ability similar to Hunter's Mark in 5e. Give it a cooldown but allow Rangers to change favored enemy designations.

1 minute cooldown with every five levels of ranger reducing it by a round.

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Re: Subraces now count as their proper racial type for favored enemy.

Post by Terenfel » Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:42 am

with Studied being every 4 level would only mean one more favorite enemy, that only helps a little bid.. against the need for 3 more. but if you removed half-orc and half-elf and moved them under orc and elf. that would fix the last three and it would be back to how it was before..

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Re: Subraces now count as their proper racial type for favored enemy.

Post by aergnist » Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:17 am

While rangers definitely have been weakened a bit by the change of actual races, I think there is a tiny bit of overreaction. Some large blanket coverage has been lost, but that also means that some of the usually picked favored enemies are now less relevant (depending on your ranger's hunting grounds, I guess).

* Both halflings are half-orcs are now races that any ranger can easily just choose to not pick, opening up spaces for goblinoids (and a choice of orcs/reptilians, depending on how much you hate kobolds and respect orogs).
* Half-elf is also a slightly less useful pick now that you might subtract for something else.

And also?
* Giant (which was always handy) is now just more useful.
* Outsiders (which was always handy) is also probably more useful.

I think that in the long run this is a largely harmless shift of what choices are optimal, and that it's still within fair bounds of how large a percentage of the player races you can feasibly cover. Should never be able to get all of them, anyway.

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Re: Subraces now count as their proper racial type for favored enemy.

Post by Sea Shanties » Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:08 pm

I don't think you should be able to get all of them in PVE. I think a case could be made for being more generous in PVP to keep them competitive.

Heck I would say let rangers treat all PVP encounters as favored enemies at a certain point (like level 23 and with Bane of Enemies feat or something like that.) Especially if, as it appears is happening, PC races are going to be recategorized.

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Re: Subraces now count as their proper racial type for favored enemy.

Post by mourisson1 » Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:25 pm

Here is a table of most races selectable on Arelith, with their base race as they have it with haks.

Image

Races in italics are most likely reward races, so rare to see, and most of them also with the possibility of select different base races at creation.
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Re: Subraces now count as their proper racial type for favored enemy.

Post by The Kriv » Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:10 am

As a Ranger, I do find it odd that I can choose "animal" as a favored enemy, and doing so be able to use the bonus from it vs: Bears, wolves, deer, rats, panthers, crag cats, great-white snowbears, etc.. etc.. etc..


"Animal" as a racial group gives me access to them all.

Meanwhile... when it comes to elves... under these changes, if I chose "elf" the benefit is split, and now there is a difference between "moon elf" and "wood elf" when it comes to my favored enemy bonus.


with the subrace dividing my favored enemy choice, it would be like forcing me to choose "Animal: Brown Bear" and "Animal: Grizzly" in order to get both... as an example of choosing a specific subrace of elves instead of ALL elves.

I think this kind of breaks the Ranger Favored Enemy in a fundamental way... well, not that choosing "halfling" and getting access to "goblin" wasn't already a bit busted.. so it would be good that it fixes things like that.
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Re: Subraces now count as their proper racial type for favored enemy.

Post by Ork » Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:49 am

I think you misread that. Under the racial type elf is all those additional subraces. When you select elf, you get your favored bonuses for all of them.

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Re: Subraces now count as their proper racial type for favored enemy.

Post by Mattamue » Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:54 am

Ork wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:49 am
I think you misread that. Under the racial type elf is all those additional subraces. When you select elf, you get your favored bonuses for all of them.
Agreed. Tested on PGCC and there's no "Favored Enemy: Wild Elf" -- for example -- in the favored enemy list or study enemy list.

I had enough lore on the test character to see sub-races of FE and I was able to see a Drow an a Wild Elf sub-race with just the Elf FE.

Who is the audience for this post?


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Re: Subraces now count as their proper racial type for favored enemy.

Post by Terenfel » Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:26 am

still.. now all the player races are spread over 13 favorite enemies from 7 before..

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Re: Subraces now count as their proper racial type for favored enemy.

Post by aergnist » Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:07 am

Just like no one ever picks gnome, now everyone can choose to never pick halflings. You never covered all of the player races, and for some rangers this is even a change for the better, lumping some player races in with PvE mobs that is nice to have covered (giants and goblinoids).

Consider the following comparison, assuming a ranger with 8 FE/SE (levels 1, 5, 5, 10, 10, 15, 15, 20).

Previously: Humans, Elves, Outsiders, Undeads, Giants, Halflings, Half-orcs, Aberrations/Dragons/Dwarves/Half-elves
Now: Humans, Elves, Undeads, Outsiders, Giants, Goblinoids, Orcs/Reptilians, Aberrations/Dragons/Dwarves/Half-elves/Half-orcs

It's really not that bad. I'm even still fitting some largely/purely PvE stuff like outsiders and undeads.

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Re: Subraces now count as their proper racial type for favored enemy.

Post by Terenfel » Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:41 pm

i picked gnome.. xD now i wish i did not and took goblin or orc with it instead..

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Re: Subraces now count as their proper racial type for favored enemy.

Post by Hazard » Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:29 pm

Terenfel wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:41 pm
i picked gnome.. xD now i wish i did not and took goblin or orc with it instead..
Gnome was the right choice >:)

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Re: Subraces now count as their proper racial type for favored enemy.

Post by Hunter548 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:36 pm

Basillicum wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:07 am
Just like no one ever picks gnome, now everyone can choose to never pick halflings. You never covered all of the player races, and for some rangers this is even a change for the better, lumping some player races in with PvE mobs that is nice to have covered (giants and goblinoids).

Consider the following comparison, assuming a ranger with 8 FE/SE (levels 1, 5, 5, 10, 10, 15, 15, 20).

Previously: Humans, Elves, Outsiders, Undeads, Giants, Halflings, Half-orcs, Aberrations/Dragons/Dwarves/Half-elves
Now: Humans, Elves, Undeads, Outsiders, Giants, Goblinoids, Orcs/Reptilians, Aberrations/Dragons/Dwarves/Half-elves/Half-orcs

It's really not that bad. I'm even still fitting some largely/purely PvE stuff like outsiders and undeads.
Picking gnome was absolutely something someone did, though. And picking halflings is still something you'll probably want if you're on surface. It's not like there's a lack of halflings, or something.

Treating this 'change' as anything other than a nerf is sort of strange.

Fortunately, the 'fix' for it is also pretty simple. Just up the number of Studied Enemies rangers get from 1/5 levels to something like 1/3. Your "average" ranger will pick up four extra, which still doesn't mean they can cover literally everything, but it does help narrow the gap.
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Re: Subraces now count as their proper racial type for favored enemy.

Post by Terenfel » Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:38 pm

agreed

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Re: Subraces now count as their proper racial type for favored enemy.

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:23 pm

Why arnt vampires under undead? My joey the vampire/monster slayer doesnt care about killing living humans, just all monsters including undead.

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Re: Subraces now count as their proper racial type for favored enemy.

Post by Scraps » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:10 pm

To be clear there was a recent update that did increase the Ranger Favored Enemies.


Feat Gained Favored Enemies:_____________________________________1__5__10___15___20___25________30
Trained:_______________________________________________________________5__10____15__20___25___27___30x2
Bonus Trained (with 12/14/16 Hard wisdom respectively.)________________10________20______________30


So a basic 21 or 23 level Ranger with 14 Wisdom has 2 more Enemies to select than before for a total of 11

A 27/3 Ranger build has up to 14 (Depending if you use the 25 Feat on an Epic Bonus Feat instead)

And a pure 30 Ranger with 16 Base Wisdom would have a maximum of 18 Favored Enemies to choose from.

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