I have played many warlocks. Currently I play a 24/6 rogue.
Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks
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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks
".. the other number that isn't 18." - Jack Oat
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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks
Do you play a monk?
".. the other number that isn't 18." - Jack Oat
".. but- someone is still pumping the brakes sometimes, right? ...right?" - Batcountry
Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks
Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks
Why is the balor on top of you? Why are you fighting a warlock without warding the place against summoning / banishing his summon first?Tarkus the dog wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:43 pmI mean, sure, but also no. The balor will deal damage to you, and you will slowly but surely lose the fight. Especially if the warlock gets to shoot a grease or two in there. I really want to see a 66 AC rogue ( whose AC drops to 56 by the way, because he just used a scroll ) spending his time re-reading the same scroll over and over again while there is a balor on top of him.
".. the other number that isn't 18." - Jack Oat
".. but- someone is still pumping the brakes sometimes, right? ...right?" - Batcountry
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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks
And let's say you caught him with his pants down and dropped a dismissal on top. He runs away, or just manages just fine because as a dex character you don't deal any serious damage to him, and then he eventually brings up the balor ( or more likely, he outright beats you). Even better, you enter the "Me shadow conjuration, you mords" loop, dismissal times out and he brings up the Balor.
Or, you know, while you are busy trying to dismissal/mords/WoF he uses Balagarn's and kills you.
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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks
Furthermore, the Horn has limited range. Any dex range character would laugh at balgarns horn via called shot etc.
If we really wanted to push the meta, the des character could have quickslotted items with str on them. This is a bit over top imo though, but a dex character should not be stuck in a 1 vs 1 fight unless they want to be there. With stuff like blinding speed a d stealth. They can avoid till more favourable conditions or use the fact that summons follow you through stealth to get out of range of horn and or lure into traps.
If it was say multiple rogues agaisnt multiple warlocks. Balgarns horn can do friendly fire and crippling strike can bring down str scores. If warlocks spread out then rogues all Gank same target at once and said target better hope they live and their horn knocks all the rogues down at once.
In general dex based characters tend to be subpar in comparison to str ones and have always had to rely on being creative to have the edge.
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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks
Agreed. Globes (even the Lessers) of invulnerability shut down a lot of their options, and while globes can be breached, that's a resource war (a pretty even one at that). Lesser globes can even be wanded, so if they want to trade a mord for a wand charge every round I'm okay with that.LIonGraphiK wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:30 pmDisagree with the CD.
Warlocks aren't great in PvP as it is lol. They might look good on pen and paper but there are so many ways to counter them.
Edit: According to the NWN wiki minor globe can't be wanded, but I think Arelith worked around that?
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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks
Banishment and dismissal makes it impossible to summon creatures for a set amount of time.Tarkus the dog wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:57 pmOkay, you waste your time trying to dispel the summon ( mords + word of faith ), that's 12 seconds of you being a sitting duck ( on top of that, there is a good chance it doesn't even remove a summon ). He summons a glabrezu, and after a while he can summon the balor again.
And let's say you caught him with his pants down and dropped a dismissal on top. He runs away, or just manages just fine because as a dex character you don't deal any serious damage to him, and then he eventually brings up the balor ( or more likely, he outright beats you). Even better, you enter the "Me shadow conjuration, you mords" loop, dismissal times out and he brings up the Balor.
Or, you know, while you are busy trying to dismissal/mords/WoF he uses Balagarn's and kills you.
".. the other number that isn't 18." - Jack Oat
".. but- someone is still pumping the brakes sometimes, right? ...right?" - Batcountry
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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks
Just adding this for the sake of clarity. :)malcolm_mountainslayer wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:01 pmDude its only dc 20. Str base 12 or 14 plus bullstr potion and skleen if you are worried should put you at around 50% chance of success. If you suceed, the warlock wasted time he could have been hitting your with something else.
It's not DC20. It's an opposed strength check.
(Source: https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Balagarn's_iron_horn)NWNWiki wrote:The strength check of this spell is (creature's strength + d20) vs. (20 + d20). Ties go to the creature. The creature's strength is its actual strength score rather than strength modifier, e.g., a creature with 20 strength would get 20 + d20 rather than 5 + d20 to oppose the knockdown.
TL;DR: With 20STR, you'll get knocked down 50% of times, and only with 39 or more STR, you're entirely immune.
Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks
you realize there are breach wands, right?Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:12 pmAgreed. Globes (even the Lessers) of invulnerability shut down a lot of their options, and while globes can be breached, that's a resource war (a pretty even one at that). Lesser globes can even be wanded, so if they want to trade a mord for a wand charge every round I'm okay with that.LIonGraphiK wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:30 pmDisagree with the CD.
Warlocks aren't great in PvP as it is lol. They might look good on pen and paper but there are so many ways to counter them.
Edit: According to the NWN wiki minor globe can't be wanded, but I think Arelith worked around that?
and you have to banishment/dismissal before their summon comes out, when very often that's the first thing they do.
i think a lot of people participating in this discussion aren't very informed.
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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks
I hate repeating myself, so I haven't a clue why are you ignoring my points.
Not really. Discipline / Freedom / True Strike / Grease / Balor running at the archer to beat him to a pulp. We went over this already.Any dex range character would laugh at balgarns horn via called shot etc.
Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks
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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks
No hard feelings.
".. the other number that isn't 18." - Jack Oat
".. but- someone is still pumping the brakes sometimes, right? ...right?" - Batcountry
Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks
Dont be sorry for it...you were right...Good arguments...And once I read all your post I know, I dont need to write anything...you said all what I wanted toSzaren wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:47 pmWell do excuse me for not agreeing with you and pointing out why. I guess things would be easier/better if everyone shared your opinion. In any case - I'll leave this, if all you want is for others to be echoing your own opinion. Thanks for the back and forth!
No hard feelings.
Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks
The issue with your argument is that the mechanics you quote fall limp against experienced players. Banishment/dismissal require a will save, and the DC is routinely low for UMD implements. In order for these options to be effective you need to cast them before a Warlock can pop off their summon - but that isn't crippling. They can leave the area and return with their balor.Szaren wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:47 pmWell do excuse me for not agreeing with you and pointing out why. I guess things would be easier/better if everyone shared your opinion. In any case - I'll leave this, if all you want is for others to be echoing your own opinion. Thanks for the back and forth!
No hard feelings.
Ghostly visage, globe spells can be breached with relative ease, and UMD implements such as these are rarely prepared and warded before PvP engages. While ghostly visage is low on the breach list, I recommend reading the breach list to see if you've witnessed rogues running around with premo, spell mantle and acid sheath to buffer the removal of ghostly.
Balagran's can utterly disable certain builds allowing the Warlock's summon to clean up flat footed opponents with relative ease. Your arguments aren't sufficient to say they provide a hard counter to balagran's spam. Since it attacks strength and only strength, all characters without a high strength are vulnerable. And that's a lot of characters.
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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks
Or you're overlooking context in your own argument. If you throw lesser breach vs a dedicated caster (which a level 30 lock qualifies as, edit: as does any mage with globe prepped) you can pretty much guarantee you won't get the buffs down you want. Since we're discussing pvp, it's a safe bet that the 'lock will have quite a few buffs to eat through, a large number of them item based.Zavandar wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:18 pmyou realize there are breach wands, right?Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:12 pmAgreed. Globes (even the Lessers) of invulnerability shut down a lot of their options, and while globes can be breached, that's a resource war (a pretty even one at that). Lesser globes can even be wanded, so if they want to trade a mord for a wand charge every round I'm okay with that.LIonGraphiK wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:30 pmDisagree with the CD.
Warlocks aren't great in PvP as it is lol. They might look good on pen and paper but there are so many ways to counter them.
Edit: According to the NWN wiki minor globe can't be wanded, but I think Arelith worked around that?
and you have to banishment/dismissal before their summon comes out, when very often that's the first thing they do.
i think a lot of people participating in this discussion aren't very informed.
Once you mord them down you can trade breach for globes, but if you're trying to get rid of globes with breach wands in the opening volley, you're losing, because globe shuts down all your offense until it's gone.
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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks
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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks
What's up with the attitude? Who hurt you?
cringe
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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks
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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks
The summon can get wrecked by any mage that can cast their own banish, or a WoF scroll, which is still cheaper than mords. Banish followed by WoF and now the lock has no summons until the banish timer is gone.
Presume the lock starts fight with summon means possible both sides have times to cast before the fight. Wards and globes up. Warlock uses mords , other uses banish, then WoF to start the next round if resisted. No fiend, no globe, fiend on cooldown timer.
Warlock closes distance, globe back up.
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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks
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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks
UMD is more prolific on arelith than any other server I've ever been on. The same tactics above work with scrolls.
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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks
warlock summons have 32 sr
you will have to mords it first to have more than a 10% chance of succeeding if you are using a scroll, and even then it's not guaranteed.
going to repeat my point about people in this debate not being informed. bowing out because of that.
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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks
If the lock has scrolls to burn, so does the other side, Caster or not.
Changing the debate points from OP doesn't make you more informed than anyone else, and your exit is tasteless for claiming otherwise. It's a very underhanded way to call the rest of us ignorant because you couldn't railroad a point.
I was fine with the debate until that.
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