Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

An area to facilitate free-form feedback on systems (in-game or out) related to Arelith.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Active DMs, Contributors

User avatar
Ork
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 2488
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 8:30 pm

Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Ork » Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:35 am

I'd argue that we were talking specifically about rogues since that's the example that Tarkus presented in the beginning. I don't really understand why we're going off on other tangents. Mages TOO can be locked down, but they have more tools in their toolbox than a rogue or dex-based melee character.

Here's what I got out of this discussion:
• Warlocks can spam Balagarn's to disable indefinitely dex based characters
• There are some counterplays (ghost visage, ethereal, globe, etc.)
• These counterplays can, and will be breached by experienced Warlock players
• Due to Balagarn's spam, non-str based characters have no chance against an experienced warlock (exceptions: well-played caster*, monk**)
*Well-played Casters gain exemption because their DC for dismissal and banishment are superior to the UMD implements.
**Monks gain exemption because of their atrociously high SR that really no one can penetrate.


Is my last point off here? So far we haven't really found an answer for rogues or dex-based meleers to confront warlock characters without getting their teeth kicked in. This wouldn't be the case if there was a cooldown on Balagarn's. If Balagarn's had a cooldown of a round (e.g. use, and then 6 second cooldown) there would be more counterplay options, but perhaps a 12 second cooldown would be more balanced in creating at least some opportunity and threat for warlocks against rogues or sneaks.

SUMMARY: play a sneak, balagarn's spam is your hard counter.

malcolm_mountainslayer
Posts: 1043
Joined: Thu May 16, 2019 5:08 am

Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:57 am

Giving it cool down impacts other things than just the dex melee vs warlock vacuum.

Warlock have a stigma for a reason and completely changing negating certain pve fun so the the melee dex niche dont get shut down from another niche for sake of pvp balance to me is a bit silly. I dont like all classes being able to fight all classes on equal terms.

But that's me and i could care less because i don't plan on relying on spamming balgarns horn anyways. Im just arguing philosophy which i know is a losing battle as the community likes their particular pvp meta. I'm actaully about to take a break from the game, but im a sucker at debating philosophy mechanics

Aelryn Bloodmoon
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 2028
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 4:57 pm

Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:09 am

Ork wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:35 am
Is my last point off here? So far we haven't really found an answer for rogues or dex-based meleers to confront warlock characters without getting their teeth kicked in. This wouldn't be the case if there was a cooldown on Balagarn's. If Balagarn's had a cooldown of a round (e.g. use, and then 6 second cooldown) there would be more counterplay options, but perhaps a 12 second cooldown would be more balanced in creating at least some opportunity and threat for warlocks against rogues or sneaks.

SUMMARY: play a sneak, balagarn's spam is your hard counter.
Your last point isn't off, but my disagreement with the logic is that not every class needs to be able to counter every other class. Balagarns takes out the DeX sneak archetype. But not the str based rogue or against weaponmaster, or casters.

The rogue can also go sd for hips, which makes him untargetable even on his back (does the fiend have ts?)


I would find it similar logic to say TFs need CDs on hand spells because they can disable low strengthers, low con, and low reflex.
Bane's tyranny is known throughout the continent, and his is the image most seen as the face of evil.
-Faiths and Pantheons (c)2002

User avatar
Ork
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 2488
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 8:30 pm

Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Ork » Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:36 am

I get that and I also by and large agree. It's just a cheesy mechanic that could use a loophole plug. Similar to the harm + dmg combo back in the day, there were classes resilient against it ..but if you've ever died by a harm scroll + gonne, you're immediately left with a rotten taste in your mouth.

The only thing I will say is that while your mentioning if TF might be comparable, Bigby's have two saves which typically include a reflex. Balagarn's isn't even a save. It's a straight str check. If it was a save, it'd be fine since it is a level 1 spell.

User avatar
Aren
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 687
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:27 pm
Location: GMT+1

Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Aren » Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:07 am

I couldn't stay away.

Regarding low chances of UMD WoF success, try a superior spell:

https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Banishment - Scroll CL 15.

Also there's book IG that casts Banishment at CL 18.

IF you argue that a well-played warlock can kill any dex-build, I argue that a well-prepared dex-build can kill a warlock, provided you get the drop on them: Banishment/Dismissal,Traps, Paralytic Caltrops ect. (As is one of the strengths of a dex-build, no?). If the summon is already out - perhaps wait until it isn't, and precast dismissal/banishment before engaging?

Scroll of Greater shadow conjuration: Ghostly Visage is not on the breach list. Thus negating the use of breach wands. The warlock would have to use mords to remove it, or spam Greater Dispel against a DC42 vs the warlocks 24+1d20 (A spell that isn't quickened, thus 1 dispel per round). And then we are back to the whole "Who has more UMD than the other fellow"-argument.

I get that it sucks that hard-counters exist for a type of build, but such is the way of D&D. Rock/Paper/Scissors. This design can somewhat be circumvented, provided the player knows what they are doing - but only to a certain extent.
Last edited by Aren on Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

".. the other number that isn't 18." - Jack Oat
".. but- someone is still pumping the brakes sometimes, right? ...right?" - Batcountry


strong yeet
Posts: 292
Joined: Wed May 02, 2018 9:09 pm

Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by strong yeet » Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:10 am

My biggest umbrage with Balagarn's (especially on a fiend warlock) is that it is very unforgiving. You can talk for a while about all the counters to it, but if you mess up just once you're locked into a chastity cage and have to sit there, unable to do anything.

This is a big problem with save-or-die in general, but that's kind of inherent to the d20 system we're dealing with -- and almost everyone, if considering limitless coin, can afford enough gear to at least partially immunise themselves against these spells. With Balagarn's, you don't really have this option. There's no Epic Reflexes feat that gives you 20% chance more to stay on your feet.

EDIT: Banishment scrolls are not better than WOF scrolls. Banishment has a save that must be failed, and a DC 16 scroll is just not going to cut it.

User avatar
Aren
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 687
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:27 pm
Location: GMT+1

Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Aren » Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:12 am

strong yeet wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:10 am
EDIT: Banishment scrolls are not better than WOF scrolls. Banishment has a save that must be failed, and a DC 16 scroll is just not going to cut it.
Use it before the warlock summons his thing then. :-)

".. the other number that isn't 18." - Jack Oat
".. but- someone is still pumping the brakes sometimes, right? ...right?" - Batcountry


Nitro
Posts: 2800
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:04 pm

Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Nitro » Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:52 am

Szaren wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:12 am
strong yeet wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:10 am
EDIT: Banishment scrolls are not better than WOF scrolls. Banishment has a save that must be failed, and a DC 16 scroll is just not going to cut it.
Use it before the warlock summons his thing then. :-)
That's extremely circumstantial and relies both on you being able to open up the engagement with your scroll AND that the warlock doesn't already have a summon out.

malcolm_mountainslayer
Posts: 1043
Joined: Thu May 16, 2019 5:08 am

Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:08 pm

strong yeet wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:10 am
My biggest umbrage with Balagarn's (especially on a fiend warlock) is that it is very unforgiving. You can talk for a while about all the counters to it, but if you mess up just once you're locked into a chastity cage and have to sit there, unable to do anything.

This is a big problem with save-or-die in general, but that's kind of inherent to the d20 system we're dealing with -- and almost everyone, if considering limitless coin, can afford enough gear to at least partially immunise themselves against these spells. With Balagarn's, you don't really have this option. There's no Epic Reflexes feat that gives you 20% chance more to stay on your feet.

EDIT: Banishment scrolls are not better than WOF scrolls. Banishment has a save that must be failed, and a DC 16 scroll is just not going to cut it.

I think i hear you. I myself like save or die stuff, but only if its equal around the table does it make any sense. Like if a pure mage could actaully get respectable dcs while at sanetime being knockdown bait. But its not all around eqaul, so on that note I understand the complaints of balgarns' horn.

User avatar
Aren
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 687
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:27 pm
Location: GMT+1

Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Aren » Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:43 pm

Nitro wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:52 am
Szaren wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:12 am
strong yeet wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:10 am
EDIT: Banishment scrolls are not better than WOF scrolls. Banishment has a save that must be failed, and a DC 16 scroll is just not going to cut it.
Use it before the warlock summons his thing then. :-)
That's extremely circumstantial and relies both on you being able to open up the engagement with your scroll AND that the warlock doesn't already have a summon out.
How many warlocks walk around with their summons out at all times? I play UD mostly, and hardly ever see one. And again: if they do have their summon out and are fully warded - then don't fight them? Wait for another oppertune moment?

".. the other number that isn't 18." - Jack Oat
".. but- someone is still pumping the brakes sometimes, right? ...right?" - Batcountry


User avatar
Sockss
Posts: 746
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:09 pm

Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Sockss » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:03 pm

Fiendlocks are plenty strong enough without an ability which can lock someone down unless they are prepared with very short duration unbreachable immunities. (And even then it's very easy to wait those out and create an opening to keep someone down)

Yes you can overcome it... But you're only going to do so for a short time, unless your opponent is very bad.

It's not a fun mechanic because of how easy it is to execute and the difficulty/impossibility in countering it for many builds.

Really the only way for most non str builds to counter it is never getting in range, or utilising shapechange, and this comes with its own problems and vulnerabilities to the rest of the warlock kit. It's also very easy for a warlock to close distance.

A CD certainly makes it more difficult to abuse, but wouldn't be that intuitive. Personally I'd give it a fort save.

Regardless, I think we can (maybe) agree here that:

IH is disproportionately strong for its circle.

Infinite no CD disables is terrible design.

Spells that don't target saves are terrible design.

(It's also very easy to counter banishment, you just transition to another area?)
Thankfully this team is no longer being used.

Sockss#5567 for nwn mechanics questions.

Shadowy Reality
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 1237
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:56 am

Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Shadowy Reality » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:32 pm

I agree with this, it doesn't need to be a huge cooldown, just enough to give some breathing room. The same for Weave Masters (I know they can't be picked anymore, but for the ones still out there).

User avatar
Sockss
Posts: 746
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:09 pm

Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Sockss » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:35 pm

A more general immunity, outside of gsc, like mind immunity would allow for more accessible counterplay while maintaining its current niche.

(Would be tied in most cases to clarity application)

And would be more intuitive than an IH cooldown but amounts to the same thing.

Adding a touch attack to it would make it less reliable as well.
Thankfully this team is no longer being used.

Sockss#5567 for nwn mechanics questions.

User avatar
Hazard
Posts: 1866
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:27 am

Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Hazard » Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:19 pm

What if being in a field of silence made you immune to Balahrn's Iron Horn? Or silencing the user made them unable to cast it. Or both. Or neither.

User avatar
Disciprine Come From Within
Posts: 95
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:46 pm

Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Disciprine Come From Within » Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:00 pm

I'll make the argument that a rogue can handle a Warlock very easy. Even with the Warlock prepared. Most warlocks focus in Con over Dex so their ray is pathetic in touch attack AB. A Dex based character like a rogue in Imp Expertise can dodge dispel casts from the warlock all day. Iron Horn does have a chance of working against a rogue with low str, but a small buff to it near 20 and you're in pretty good shape statistically.

And even then, if you're worried about Iron Horn and the summon, here's a piece of tactical advice I'm surprised hasn't been brought up. Tanglefoot bags are cheap and plentiful and Balors have poor reflex. Unless a warlock wants to burn wand uses on Freedom of Movement, which can be breached, you can lock down the summon with tanglefoot bags and then follow up on the warlock with firebombs or Gonne shots from a distance if you're worried or take advantage of opportunities for sneak attacks with a shortbow as warlocks are flat footed often.

User avatar
Sockss
Posts: 746
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:09 pm

Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Sockss » Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:19 pm

You'll have to contend with ice storm if you're going ranged.

Once the summon is fom'd it's not a good use of your time to breach and disable it again. That would definitely put you in danger.

Corner hugging and shooting arrows is fine, since you break los for the cast, but that will take negligence on the warlocks part to do anything beyond being irritating. Or you getting very lucky.

Any character that's flatfooted without being disabled, taunting or kitting, for longer than 1 flurry isn't playing right.

As mentioned there are ways of dealing with iron horn, but they fall relatively flat when you consider warlocks are the masters of endurance combat and their IH is infinite. You're one IH away from death, usually.

If you were very prepared with lots of gsc uses you might pull it off, but that is a very outside chance.
Thankfully this team is no longer being used.

Sockss#5567 for nwn mechanics questions.

User avatar
Disciprine Come From Within
Posts: 95
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:46 pm

Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Disciprine Come From Within » Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:45 pm

Ice Storm does around 50 damage a cast and the warlock needs to be hasted to double cast.

Firebombs do 120 damage on a dedicated rogue and have a ridiculous distance use. In fact it's easy for a Rogue to throw a firebomb at max distance and haste run away before a cast would even get to fire back on the warlock because of the animations.

And I disagree about breach being a waste of time. Rogues have 2 options of breaching via Disjunction Shards and wands. Putting the summon into a negative state more than halves the potential damage a warlock can do to you. Yes, they are infinite but you can lock them down and hurt them just as much as they're hurting you in some regards. And any argument made about healing that a warlock can manage, a rogue can manage just as well.

Adding into it, an entangled creature is open to sneak attacks. Balors don't have that much HP. They'd be easy to murder in a round after being entangled by a rogue.

Iron Horn is not an instant win all the time.

User avatar
Sockss
Posts: 746
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:09 pm

Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Sockss » Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:57 pm

There's a lot of stuff here, let me go through it.
Disciprine Come From Within wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:45 pm
Ice Storm does around 50 damage a cast and the warlock needs to be hasted to double cast.
It's 47.5 x2 per round presuming DE, so 95.

Then you add blast damage.

Average AB of a warlock is 20+8+4 = 32

Average Touch AC of a rogue. 10+4(Haste)+1(Boots Dodge)+6 (Rogue armour bonus @24 averageCL)+4(Deflection, Shield Spell)+6(Dex capped at armour) = 31 ((-2 fire blast)) (EDIT: 38)
Average Touch AC of an IE rogue = 41 ((-2 fire blast)) (EDIT: 48)

So we'll look at a non fire blast and go with neg to keep it simple.

Chance to hit = 25%

AV Blast Neg damage = 67.5+35=102.5

Modified Damage (-DE )= 21

/ round damage = 42

/ round damage with ice storm = 137
Disciprine Come From Within wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:45 pm
Firebombs do 120 damage on a dedicated rogue and have a ridiculous distance use. In fact it's easy for a Rogue to throw a firebomb at max distance and haste run away before a cast would even get to fire back on the warlock because of the animations.
I'm curious as to how you arrived at that figure, considering the scaling was never officially released. I'm presuming it was just pulled out of the air like the rest of this.

A 30 rogue has 'about the same' damage with a bomb on average as a gonne, which is 105. The scaling I'm not too confident on but I'd presume it would be every odd level like SA.

This is 85 after warlock resistance. Per round.

You're better off using a gonne, so lets just say we'll use that. 105 from the gonne, per round.

About half of the warlock.
Disciprine Come From Within wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:45 pm
And I disagree about breach being a waste of time. Rogues have 2 options of breaching via Disjunction Shards and wands. Putting the summon into a negative state more than halves the potential damage a warlock can do to you. Yes, they are infinite but you can lock them down and hurt them just as much as they're hurting you in some regards. And any argument made about healing that a warlock can manage, a rogue can manage just as well.
You're spending resources. It's not infinite. However, even if it was, that isn't the point I'm making here.

This takes you 2 rounds to do.

This will cost you 274 hp to do.

This is not feasible vs anyone competent
Disciprine Come From Within wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:45 pm
Adding into it, an entangled creature is open to sneak attacks. Balors don't have that much HP. They'd be easy to murder in a round after being entangled by a rogue.
This will cost you another round (Likely more but it's okay), which is 208 HP to do.

Plus balor damage.

This is 411 damage (minimum) to kill a balor.

This is not feasible vs anyone competent.
Disciprine Come From Within wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:45 pm
Iron Horn is not an instant win all the time.
No it isn't, but it is a very big tool to add to something that already should win dex matchups very easily.

(Note also that a hit is going to be a lot higher than that damage, if you get two in a row that's more - the nuke potential is a lot higher than it appears as I'm adjusting it down to account for miss chance and haven't even included flatfooting the rogue which is very possible.)

EDITED FIGURES: (missed 7 ac from MA/Tumble like an idiot.)
Last edited by Sockss on Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Thankfully this team is no longer being used.

Sockss#5567 for nwn mechanics questions.

Aelryn Bloodmoon
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 2028
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 4:57 pm

Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:37 pm

Sockss wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:03 pm
Fiendlocks are plenty strong enough without an ability which can lock someone down unless they are prepared with very short duration unbreachable immunities. (And even then it's very easy to wait those out and create an opening to keep someone down)
While globe and shadow globe only last one round per level, this discussion is predicated on epic level warlocks with fiends that wreck someone's (A dex-based sneak) face. Edit: 7 rounds is short, but not insignificant.

Shadow ghostly visage lasts turns per levels (9 turns/minutes from a scroll) and also can't be breached.

Applying the logic of "Dex-based sneak with UMD" as a key point of the discussion, this means when someone tries to dispel it they're trying to dispel versus your character level (30), unless you splashed a caster class and used one of those spells first to have an actual caster level. Thus the whole other series of threads about non-caster item buffs being harder to dispel than a caster's.

Edit: Neither seven rounds nor nine minutes is an "easy" thing to wait out during hostile combat- especially against a level 30 character with sneak attack.
Bane's tyranny is known throughout the continent, and his is the image most seen as the face of evil.
-Faiths and Pantheons (c)2002

User avatar
Sockss
Posts: 746
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:09 pm

Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Sockss » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:47 pm

For sure, as I've stated many times, counters exist, but they are not common. (Though you're incorrect on the timing!)

Having a stack of GSC for a warlock is a pretty out there scenario, which is why I suggested tying it to a more common immunity. Less inventory bloat is good, less requirement for dex characters to carry things is good.

Sneak attack is extremely easy to avoid, dex characters have abysmal damage in 1v1 scenarios (or at least should).
Thankfully this team is no longer being used.

Sockss#5567 for nwn mechanics questions.

malcolm_mountainslayer
Posts: 1043
Joined: Thu May 16, 2019 5:08 am

Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:12 am

The easiest solution is to use horn on warlock first via potion? Then cripple their str and then horn them all over again.

User avatar
Sockss
Posts: 746
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:09 pm

Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Sockss » Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:47 am

You can't horn and attack in the same round, as a rogue.

And the warlock should be running an SR helm.
Thankfully this team is no longer being used.

Sockss#5567 for nwn mechanics questions.

User avatar
Disciprine Come From Within
Posts: 95
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:46 pm

Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Disciprine Come From Within » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:58 am

Sockss wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:57 pm
There's a lot of stuff here, let me go through it.
Disciprine Come From Within wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:45 pm
Ice Storm does around 50 damage a cast and the warlock needs to be hasted to double cast.
It's 47.5 x2 per round presuming DE, so 95.

Then you add blast damage.

Average AB of a warlock is 20+8+4 = 32

Average Touch AC of a rogue. 10+4(Haste)+1(Boots Dodge)+6 (Rogue armour bonus @24 averageCL)+4(Deflection, Shield Spell)+6(Dex capped at armour) = 31 ((-2 fire blast)) (EDIT: 38)
Average Touch AC of an IE rogue = 41 ((-2 fire blast)) (EDIT: 48)

So we'll look at a non fire blast and go with neg to keep it simple.

Chance to hit = 25%

AV Blast Neg damage = 67.5+35=102.5

Modified Damage (-DE )= 21

/ round damage = 42

/ round damage with ice storm = 137
Disciprine Come From Within wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:45 pm
Firebombs do 120 damage on a dedicated rogue and have a ridiculous distance use. In fact it's easy for a Rogue to throw a firebomb at max distance and haste run away before a cast would even get to fire back on the warlock because of the animations.
I'm curious as to how you arrived at that figure, considering the scaling was never officially released. I'm presuming it was just pulled out of the air like the rest of this.

A 30 rogue has 'about the same' damage with a bomb on average as a gonne, which is 105. The scaling I'm not too confident on but I'd presume it would be every odd level like SA.

This is 85 after warlock resistance. Per round.

You're better off using a gonne, so lets just say we'll use that. 105 from the gonne, per round.

About half of the warlock.
Disciprine Come From Within wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:45 pm
And I disagree about breach being a waste of time. Rogues have 2 options of breaching via Disjunction Shards and wands. Putting the summon into a negative state more than halves the potential damage a warlock can do to you. Yes, they are infinite but you can lock them down and hurt them just as much as they're hurting you in some regards. And any argument made about healing that a warlock can manage, a rogue can manage just as well.
You're spending resources. It's not infinite. However, even if it was, that isn't the point I'm making here.

This takes you 2 rounds to do.

This will cost you 274 hp to do.

This is not feasible vs anyone competent
Disciprine Come From Within wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:45 pm
Adding into it, an entangled creature is open to sneak attacks. Balors don't have that much HP. They'd be easy to murder in a round after being entangled by a rogue.
This will cost you another round (Likely more but it's okay), which is 208 HP to do.

Plus balor damage.

This is 411 damage (minimum) to kill a balor.

This is not feasible vs anyone competent.
Disciprine Come From Within wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:45 pm
Iron Horn is not an instant win all the time.
No it isn't, but it is a very big tool to add to something that already should win dex matchups very easily.

(Note also that a hit is going to be a lot higher than that damage, if you get two in a row that's more - the nuke potential is a lot higher than it appears as I'm adjusting it down to account for miss chance and haven't even included flatfooting the rogue which is very possible.)

EDITED FIGURES: (missed 7 ac from MA/Tumble like an idiot.)
So, I still see some issues with the Math. Rogues go for Epic Dodge so most are going to have base 25-26 Dex. That's 1 more AC than you put out.

I also noticed you didn't bring up the Warlock's touch attack AB.

20 at level 30 + Dex Mod + 5 GMW.

Dex usually isn't a full dump stat with most warlock builds but I'd say it isn't usually amazing either. To be nice I'll give a +10 to the Dex Mod.

That is 35 + 1d20 vs 49. About a 30% chance. So actually better odds on the warlock hitting than you stated with direct blasts, but concealment does make that lower still.

Yes, I pulled the 120 damage out of thin air after playing a 24/6 Rogue for several months and watching the general damage of firebombs which I used for fighting dragons as the damage and distance was far superior to gonnes. Gonne shots are really close compared to Rogue Firebomb use. It's enough to even make a long range spell like Ice Storm difficult to target if you're going to stick to long range vs long range.

You're assuming a fight where a Warlock gets the opportunity to use all it's damage with relative ease. I'm assuming a fight where a Rogue burns his action and works to minimize other actions by the opposition. Standing still is your enemy and letting a warlock cast and sick his fiend on you is an easy death. A rogue will be constantly moving and will have to work harder than the warlock will to win. But it's still possible and I think easier than you think. Especially if people read your numbers game and get complacent.

As for your resources argument, I probably stashed way more of those grenades playing than I even would use on my Rogue. They were easy to acquire and plenty of other characters happily handed them over if they knew I'd take them for free. They are finite and they do cost weight, but it's not like carrying 30-40 of them for a fight is hard or even a pain to replenish. Most of my Rogue's weight when I was playing was on those grenades.

There are other strategies too that I could think of, many of them based on corner sneaking advantages, exploiting overaggressive play, and even fishing for 1s on a few other grenades. Also equally amusing that your retort argument didn't involve the very spell that's being talked about as a problem. Instead it was Ice Storm spam assuming easy haste wand use (A finite resource) and how every rogue action = death because of it. Maybe you should be arguing for Ice Storm to have that cooldown instead.

User avatar
Ork
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 2488
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 8:30 pm

Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Ork » Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:02 pm

He's arguing about ice storm because you changed the argument to ranged. Big brain. Regardless, balagarns spam is a mechanic that could use a round delay. Throwing out balagarn's while your summon pounds on you typically ends in death even for the prepared.

Alantar
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 100
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:37 pm

Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Alantar » Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:56 pm

The Ironhorn can be cast from a wand every six seconds so almost every class can make use of infinite Ironhors (not hasted, of course). Even if not from a wand, any epic mage or sorcerer can cast more than enough Ironhors for a PvP encounter.

As it has been stated, there are many ways to counter it and, apart from this, I agree with the idea that not every class should be in an equal position fighting each other. To put it briefly, I don't think the spell needs to be nerfed, at all.

Post Reply