Altars, Attunement, and Hidden Deity Names

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Subutai
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Altars, Attunement, and Hidden Deity Names

Post by Subutai » Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:35 pm

I brought this up as a bug on the bug forum, but it was closed since it wasn't a bug.

However, there was some disagreement in the topic about how exactly this should work, and whether or not deities should be hidden on altars. I wanted to bring it back up here to discuss it and get some more thoughts on the topic.
Nitro wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:14 pm
Xerah wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:05 pm
This is something that I had to consider while I was doing this.

In the end, I felt the best idea was to leave it as is. You come to an altar that you think is set to X and after you take a moment to pray, you realize afterwards that you've taken a blessing from someone else. You can then react ICly to that, so we felt that was the best approach.
That's kind of strange honestly. If you kneel down at an altar and do some heartfelt praying to Chauntea you're not going to attract the divine attention of Cyric because whoops that blank nondescript altar was actually his teehee.
And the reply I wrote after the topic was locked...
Subutai wrote: I was just writing a response to the same effect. While praying at an altar consecrated to the god you're trying to get a blessing from is important, it seems like it would be a two step process. The correct altar being one, and the prayers being another. Since FR deities get their power from being actually worshiped, I don't think tricking people into worshiping them in that way quite works. While many of the gods do so by taking on avatars, or by killing and replacing another god and pretending they're totally definitely that original god, I don't know of any situation in which they gain followers by just answering prayers directed at other extant deities.

In fact, I'm personally not even entirely sold on the idea that you could have an altar consecrated to a deity that didn't identify itself as being consecrated to that deity. Even clerics of Mask and other secret deities are still required to carry holy symbols of their deity to evoke their powers which, even if they don't need to be 100% overt, still need to either somehow signify the deity, or contain some or all of a sacred relic, which they need to hold or expose visually to use. It seems to follow that an altar would have similar constraints, rather than just being a rock that a cleric sprinkled some holy water on.
Now that altars and religion are becoming more prominent due to recent changes, I think it would be good to hash these ideas out before they're too set in stone one way or the other.

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Re: Altars, Attunement, and Hidden Deity Names

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:31 pm

The problem is that it works exactly like that- there is extensive lore and background history, both IC on Arelith and in the FR books across all the different editions (including 3.0 and 3.5) that gods can and do trick mortals into worshiping them as alternate aspects, or even by pretending to grant powers as a different god and taking your worship in their place. (Edit: One particularly famous example is a certain Good Drow that actually happens to be a Chosen of Lloth for his entire life (without his knowledge for most of it), because his very contradiction of being good and a drow at the same time sows chaos everywhere he goes, and increases her influence by spreading fear of the drow).

Not only is it not new, but some gods have literally done this to others as part of sneaky campaigns to weaken them prior to striking.

All gods can be aware of and view a number of their altars/priests equal to their Divine Rank, simultaneously. In this regard placing 'secret altars' serves a two-fold purpose of both stealing worship and spying on enemy faiths.

Ao's rules care that the worship happens and that the divine entity benefiting from said worship care enough that the mortal continues to provide worship - nothing in between, including who the prayers might have actually been meant for, matters. Viewed from a completely OOC cosmic scale, Ao's kind of a dick, and while the Unholy Three were, too, their rebellion wasn't entirely unjustified (when using real world moral scales, not the ones in game).
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Re: Altars, Attunement, and Hidden Deity Names

Post by Nitro » Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:43 pm

Yes, gods trick mortals into worship all the time. But that's still acting within their portfolio. Cyric tricking Bhaal's cult into worshipping him works because he has the portfolio of murder (and Bhaal is dead). Cyric couldn't just get worship from someone worshipping Lathander in his role as the dawn just because one of his priests put a sneeky breeky altar somewhere. If a Cyric cult had managed to trick some peasants into thinking Lathander was the god of lies, or that he had an aspect called Rednahtal that was actually a murdergod, then he could get power from those mortals worship because they're actually worshipping him within his portfolio.

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Re: Altars, Attunement, and Hidden Deity Names

Post by JubJub » Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:25 pm

Why wouldn't cyric get a kick out of watching a Bane person unknowingly worship at his altar? Not to mention gods based on secrecy hardly want their followers or altars easily identified.

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Re: Altars, Attunement, and Hidden Deity Names

Post by Red Ropes » Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:21 am

JubJub wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:25 pm
Why wouldn't cyric get a kick out of watching a Bane person unknowingly worship at his altar? Not to mention gods based on secrecy hardly want their followers or altars easily identified.
Only if their worship had changed to tickle his portfolio. That's the thing about 'tricking'. It's about genuine faith in that trick. Not 'hehe prayed at an altar'.
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Re: Altars, Attunement, and Hidden Deity Names

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:53 pm

Nitro wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:43 pm
Yes, gods trick mortals into worship all the time. But that's still acting within their portfolio. Cyric tricking Bhaal's cult into worshipping him works because he has the portfolio of murder (and Bhaal is dead). Cyric couldn't just get worship from someone worshipping Lathander in his role as the dawn just because one of his priests put a sneeky breeky altar somewhere. If a Cyric cult had managed to trick some peasants into thinking Lathander was the god of lies, or that he had an aspect called Rednahtal that was actually a murdergod, then he could get power from those mortals worship because they're actually worshipping him within his portfolio.
Some gods have killed other gods, then stepped in and started granting prayers to their previous followers, taking the worship in exchange and saying nothing about any changes to their religious philosophies, masquerading to the faith as though their god still existed and benefiting from it. Shar did this to Ibrandul during the time of troubles.

I can't say this enough; Ao's kind of a dick- he didn't make any actual rules about the gathering of worship- just that if the gods wanted to keep their power that it had to happen. All kinds of dirty nasty tricks ensue. I imagine most people that don't foster a particularly close relationship with their patron experience little other than an odd sensation while praying at an incorrect altar, if anything at all - and they may even mistake it for the actual attention and favor of their god in that moment of prayer. In that regard, 'unlabeled' altars make perfect sense, until someone with a reason to notice comes along- certainly not most of the common folk.

My theory on Ao is that he "taxes" all the gods' worship influx for himself at a really high percentage and leaves them the leftovers, which is why he got mad when they were just screwing around people weren't worshipping as much, and as a result forced their powers to rely on worship from mortals.

Basically, the gods are his secretaries/regional supervisors for all the prayers he doesn't feel like dealing with, and he has a firm do not disturb sign on his office door.
Bane's tyranny is known throughout the continent, and his is the image most seen as the face of evil.
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Re: Altars, Attunement, and Hidden Deity Names

Post by Nitro » Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:59 pm

Disregarding the headcanon on AO that's just false, that's still not how gods work though. Shar won't receive your worship no matter what altar you pray at so long as you're praying to Lathander for a glorious dawn. She'll be aware you're doing it since you're near one of her holy sites but she won't get anything from it, being the literal opposite to what you're praying for/to. And rather than give a boon it'd be more likely you get smote for bringing heathen worship to her holy place.

Gods with similar domains can and do trick mortals into worshiping the wrong deity, Bane for instance could quite conceivably trick some warriors into praying to him thinking they're praying to Tempus when they pray for a quick and brutal conquest. Conquest is Bane's domain after all. Or Ibrandul you mentioned in your own example, a god of sneaking and darkness which made it easy for Shar whose portfolio is already extremely similar to subsume his cult.

And that still has nothing to do with the blank, generic stone slab altars without description that exist in our server, that don't make sense to begin with. In a tabletop game you'd be able to get skill checks from your DM to figure out what deity an altar is dedicated to if it's not extremely obvious at a glance, something we can't represent in game right now as anyone can write anything they want in their altars description and have it be a foolproof disguise since we have no mechanical way to ascertain what deity the altar is actually dedicated to.

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Re: Altars, Attunement, and Hidden Deity Names

Post by JubJub » Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:26 pm

I disagree. Shar might not get a lot from you accidently worshipping at her altar but the god you think you're worshipping to isn't get a lot either. Maybe you get frustrated at your diety because you think he's ignoring you and leave his faith. That's a win for his rivals. A god like shar also doesn't want her altars easily identified, gods based on secrecy don't want giant symbols of mask on disceet altars. You don't think Lolth would get a kick out of one of her altars ending up in Myon and watching elves accidently worshipping at it? is she getting much from it no. bIt's a huge insult to those she hates and it's weakening her rival. I just don't see why an altar needs to have symbols over it to be effective. In theory its the consecration that makes it effective, not because it's a slab of rock. In theory a priest could consecrate a tree

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Re: Altars, Attunement, and Hidden Deity Names

Post by TimeAdept » Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:48 am

I disagree. Shar might not get a lot from you accidently worshipping at her altar but the god you think you're worshipping to isn't get a lot either.
Yes they are, because it is a fervent act of worship to a deity. The locale is irrelevant. This is why it's more likely to draw anger from the opposing deity - because you are directly disrespecting their area and sphere of influence by offering prayer to their cosmological antithesis.

Shar won't get anything from you "accidentally worshiping" at her altar unless what you are worshiping is actually Shar in disguise, such as what happens with Ibrandul. Shar doesn't get anything if you pray to Tymora in front of her altar. Tymora still does fine, though. It doesn't magically "not work" because it's not in front of "A Tymora Altar". That's not how faith and prayer in the forgotten realms works.

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Re: Altars, Attunement, and Hidden Deity Names

Post by Peppermint » Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:08 am

Shar: "A-ha! Foolish mortal! What you thought was an altar to Lathander is in fact a rock I once totally laid dibs on! Your prayer is mine. My domain grows broader yet!"

Man. What a dumb roleplay concept. Does anyone actually portray it like that?

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Re: Altars, Attunement, and Hidden Deity Names

Post by JubJub » Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:17 am

There should at least be some sort of penalty if you wish to attune to another god. I mean someone can basicly just attune to every altar they come across with no penalty right?

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Re: Altars, Attunement, and Hidden Deity Names

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:29 am

Peppermint wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:08 am
Shar: "A-ha! Foolish mortal! What you thought was an altar to Lathander is in fact a rock I once totally laid dibs on! Your prayer is mine. My domain grows broader yet!"

Man. What a dumb roleplay concept. Does anyone actually portray it like that?
More accurate examples that have actually happened-

Shar: Ha! You think you're praying to your God ibrandul because you live in caves, but I killed him and am actively pretending to be him to all of you ignorant mortals who can't tell the difference, so thanks for the power boost.

Bane: Hah, my son thinks he's going to take over for me- little does he know that as soon as he recuperates enough divine essence from worship I'm going to burst out of his chest alien style and take it back.

Asmodeus: Literal volumes have been written about the ways he has cheated the worship system and other cosmic forces that predate all the gods.
Bane's tyranny is known throughout the continent, and his is the image most seen as the face of evil.
-Faiths and Pantheons (c)2002

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Re: Altars, Attunement, and Hidden Deity Names

Post by Peppermint » Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:42 am

Right. But all of those are totally different and have nothing to do with people laying dibs on rocks.

One involves tricking worshippers into invoking your domain, and the other is patent elementary-level nonsense. The distinction should be obvious. Surely. I hope?

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Re: Altars, Attunement, and Hidden Deity Names

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:14 am

Peppermint wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:42 am
Right. But all of those are totally different and have nothing to do with people laying dibs on rocks.

One involves tricking worshippers into invoking your domain, and the other is patent elementary-level nonsense. The distinction should be obvious. Surely. I hope?
In Shar's case she subsumed the portfolio, yes, but the clear intention of the worshippers was still a prayer to ibrandul by name.

Since those prayers didn't reawaken him as a divine entity, which is a possibility that other dead/ sleeping gods have taken advantage of in the past, can we also agree that the intentions behind the prayers are NOT necessarily as important as who happens to be listening and granting them?

Because that leads back to the step of secret, false altars on my mind- not because the deity claimed dibs, but because they can then use that altar to be aware of and usurp the worship of people who might think they're worshipping others.
Bane's tyranny is known throughout the continent, and his is the image most seen as the face of evil.
-Faiths and Pantheons (c)2002

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