Dungeons, difficulty, fun, all that.

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Nulstarius
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Dungeons, difficulty, fun, all that.

Post by Nulstarius » Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:37 pm

It seems that arelith has reached a point where you can go to most high end places, and never worry about loosing your buffs, ever. Mages simply do not dispel anymore. Chosen of Baphomet, Maur sorcerers, frost giant shamans, fire giant shamans, entropic sorcerers, dread master mages, duergar mages. Just about anything that used to use a mords or a greater breach in high end dungeons have stopped using them. There are still plenty low to mid lvl places that use dispels though, for some reason monsters only stop using that stuff in epics?

This is not necessarily a bad trend I find it, we were all tired of endless mords spam and endless acid sheath spam, No argument there. But can't we also have high end dungeons where spawns do use a little bit of Mords, or greater breach, or even just lesser? Harder spawns, where you really have to use strategy more and can't just turn your back to any mage, cause you got a high end spell resistance spell. Mobs having these things isn't a bad thing necessarily if they don't have it in surplus. But always knowing your sr wont get breached, or your wards wont get dispelled can get a little stale. you don't really have to adapt or be prepared for possibly loosing a mind ward, or a spell resistance, or a death ward. Cause it just doesn't happen.

Again, I'm not saying one way or the other, not everyone has spell ressitance to make you imune to all mage monsters on the server. But it would be nice if we could also have a different kind of dungeon where things could be a bit more unexpected, and seriously try to kill you. Yes we got beholders, but there are ways to fool their dispel gaze too and its a super tiny dungeon. Maybe monsters have gotten a little too predictable, and maybe we could use a few more really challenging dungeons you can't just stroll through, without one thought for strategy.
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Re: Dungeons, difficulty, fun, all that.

Post by Durvayas » Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:20 pm

It should be considered that mords and other breach spamming monsters function only as a tax on high epic PCs. Any high epic worth its salt is going to have wands and scrolls, so any removal of a buff is going to be temporary at best, but most importantly, it'll be a red number on the balance sheet of how valuable this dungeon is to run.

And this is important, because high epic dungeons are already not optimal for making gold in. Remember they were nerfed, HARD, in terms of gold rewards, which resulted in high epics farming lower tier dungeons for gold. Any change that will exacerbate this should be considered carefully, as it WILL impact the meta.
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Re: Dungeons, difficulty, fun, all that.

Post by Ork » Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:43 pm

Dispel mobs don't make for interesting encounters. Kind of have to question what exactly you're getting at here, OP.

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Re: Dungeons, difficulty, fun, all that.

Post by Peppermint » Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:35 am

I feel dispels can be interesting. Losing a critical ward (e.g. death ward) can lead to more decisions in the moment.

"Do I reapply this now?"
"Do I keep hitting the creature and hope I don't fail a save?"
"Did I lose multiple critical buffs and need to find some way to buy time or cover many of my bases at once?"

However, the problem is that Arelith's spawn system is primitive at best. Having to make more tactical decisions and rebuff on occasion can lead to more dynamic gameplay. On the other hand, having your entire buff suite hammered and being forced to simply give up on the dungeon you're in because you got unlucky with spawns? Not as fun.

There's no real way to fine tune spawns on Arelith, which makes designing interesting dungeon encounters (barring pre-placed bosses) virtually impossible. It's no wonder that the Arelith dungeon experience has devolved into a simple grind. The systems in place don't allow for anything else without incurring needless frustration.

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Re: Dungeons, difficulty, fun, all that.

Post by Nulstarius » Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:14 am

Peppermint says it well. Dispel mobs can be interesting , instead of just another high ab or high hp monster with all the 1000 others we got of those, it puts you at a sudden disadvantedge, like loosing your mind ward when fighting a dragon. Now shamans dont breach mind wards, abbazur has become easier than ever to give an example. It also makes mages greater targets, as they should be, encouraging rp as to how you kill those mages with your group before they get a spell of, We got archers? we got sneaks? what are our options besides charging a mage head on and loosing wards? Can we think of something more clever?

I certainly don't want mobs spamming mords again, pretty sure I made that clear, but I don't see why most mage monsters couldn't get just 1 cast of lesser breach, so you at least wanted to kill them first, before they breach your sr or mind ward. If they weren't all sorcerers one could control their ammount of breach spells prepared? there's a big difference to that and a mage spamming 5 mords. The lack of anything to remove spell res is basically why druids solo everything, the stuff that should hurt them, like horrid wilting, never affects them cause nothing would dream of removing their spell res before just casting the same spell over and over to no avail.

Why is it not worse being dispelled at low lvl, I don't see that, I find being dispelled at lower lvls, which happens a lot, much worse, as buffs are more important, and more costly to replace. In epics it becomes a challenge to how good are you at using the tools at your disposal even if you loose your wards.

I'd do the harder dungeon for the same rewards as the others just to have more fun, and I think there are plenty high end dungeons that pay well, trip down to mount baphomet few days back netted us 70k between three people and adamantine, we never dropped to injured, felt like a decent pay day, that place got so weak it's just silly, and for riddicolous fantastic xp. And yes it was stupid hard before it got nerfed, but a middleground would be better than swinging the pendul the total opposite direction.

Does it have to all be so much the same all over? Can't we spice it up a little, or just make a few fun dungeons that tries to kill you that's more than 1 map with paush, for those of us who doesn't mind loosing in pve now and then. In an epic fight where where monsters don't act like they got perma feeblemind spell, simply because they got epic and forgot how to dispel.

A little more overall diversity in the end game dungeons wouldn't hurt, and I still think a lesser spell breach just here and there would go along way in threathening your top wards but leaving the basics so you don't just loose it all constantly. Or just some options for something that isn't just the same thing entirely in a different giant skin.
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Re: Dungeons, difficulty, fun, all that.

Post by RedGiant » Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:18 am

I'm with Ork. I also originally thought this was a troll thread, but it appears now earnest.

Having died twice in the past few days on a supposedly invincible, low epics monk to spell spam, and the dispelling mobs are not all gone by any stretch, I'm going to say the module is "interesting" enough.

If you are spoofing Beholders dispel cones, you're already in another gaming category. Might I suggest "Super Meat Boy" or some other notoriously hard game to get your difficulty fix?

I will also say, as I've said before, end run content in a PW is...dun dun dun...other players. The ultimate challenge should come through RP, not from Diablo-esque lvl666 dungeons to get resources every player eventually needs.
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Re: Dungeons, difficulty, fun, all that.

Post by monkeywithstick » Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:01 am

I see dispel mobs still.

I think something to bear in mind is player behavior though. Most players will seek out the lowest risk for highest reward. If dispels add challenge, then the dungeons containing more of them are going to be less favored and therefore more off the beaten track.

I'm all for more encounter diversity. I just think the effect for many players will be to concentrate low effort grinding in fewer locations.
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Re: Dungeons, difficulty, fun, all that.

Post by Sockss » Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:14 am

Unless you have clever ai (we don't, there are players that could solo everywhere even when dispels were everywhere) and a proper spawn system, dispel ends up either being oppressive (because of rng spawns) or an annoying tax on resources (which means people will not visit these areas).

There's a lot of steps to take before dispel would be in a position for fun mechanics.

I'd say the overall pve difficulty for arelith is very low, however I like it that way. It ensures that the majority of arelith can do things and that you don't get crippled if you're not building optimally. A lot of the population are unable to do things like maur and githyanki even now.

I also think you're confusing the issue with druids. They're not able to solo everything with minimal effort because of sr and lack of dispels, it's because they're very overturned. (And there may be other things in your group that are considered outliers, so your pve experience is different!)
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Re: Dungeons, difficulty, fun, all that.

Post by Subutai » Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:16 pm

Sockss wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:14 am
Unless you have [...] a proper spawn system
People keep mentioning this. Can someone with knowledge make a topic about it? I'd like to hear how we could improve the spawn system.

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Re: Dungeons, difficulty, fun, all that.

Post by Sockss » Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:47 pm

Spawns can be gamed, they use entry CR as well as gp cost of items. (Afaik)

They're also randomised, so you can get spawn groups which are disproportionately hard (and easy. ) E.g if you went somewhere like maur you could spawn several casters, instead of a mix of things which can be significantly harder to deal with than the 'average' spawn.

It also spawns things in inaccessible areas behind placeables etc. making ranged opponents irritating.
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Re: Dungeons, difficulty, fun, all that.

Post by Eters » Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:02 pm

Dungeons, a core part of D&D in general, and more so for persistent worlds/MMORPG's , since as players and as characters, dungeons are what help set the mood of the world we're in, they're the reminder of the dangers, and the markers of our own strength and place within the narrative overall. Unfortunately in my own opinion, dungeons as they are right now, do not represent what they're meant to represent accurately, and I feel that while low and mid level dungeons do follow a good progression compared to characters, epic dungeons fail to keep up.

I think that is because of the change in Arelith's philosophy, a few years ago when I just joined, Arelith was about "the journey from level 1 to level 30." Exp was scarce and with no adventuring exp nor quests/writs, to reach level 30 you either had to forsake any degree of sanity and circlegrind your IQ to 1 or just take your time with it. That took the casual player quite a lot of time and dungeons did just that, aid for the journey from 1-> 30.

Now with writs and adventure exp, and runic craft which takes time and dedication to complete. Characters fly through the levels at a quicker pace, and by the time they reach level 30 they've yet to even begin their own story, let alone complete it. I have seen many characters that while level 30 still struggle to find an anchor for their own story to begin from. Which means they have to remain in the world longer, and that by itself means that the number of level 30's in the server goes up. But most dungeons remain more or less the same despite the change in the server, from leveling speed/items/runes to class buffs, the characters went through a complete metamorphosis while the dungeons (with some exceptions of course.) remained stagnant in their design or with minor changes.

Which is why I think in my opinion, that there are few key points that ought to make the overall feel of dungeons better. First of all, I think that even as a level 30, that shouldn't mean that all the places within the world should be manageable, difficult places should be difficult, deadly zones should be deadly. As a level 30 you still should fear/be warry about traveling to certain areas, the "risk" factor cannot be entirely removed from the world.

For example, Hell is hell and the deeper you venture into it's layers the more difficult it must be, It is not a place where one should "casually" stroll through as a mortal is not even supposed to be there. The lowerdark is dangerous, Ilithid that fell an entire city in the server's past must be dangerous. A single beholder is a terror in D&D, yet an army of them in Arelith barely makes the experienced adventurer flinch.

When you read in in-game books about something and go all excited to "experience the thrill" just to find that there is no thrill at all, it does come with a certain degree of disappointment. That creates the "god-like" behavior many characters end up developing because nothing in the world is truly a danger to them, and with death from PvP being inconsequential both in narrative and mechanically, the lack of any challenging dungeons only serves to bolster that story-destroying attitude.

The other point is the rewards. Dangers must come an adequate reward, yet such is not the case in Arelith. Why does a race of powerful beings hold into their chests nuts and harvest zinc ? Why does the trove of a king hold a perfume bottle, and a few copper ores, why does a dragon's horde no different than a goblin's? All those things slowly but surely make one lose their immersion and separate dungeons from the other aspect of roleplay. They become just "places to get gold and exp" rather than core parts of the world, which they are.

Another part which breaks the fun of the dungeons is the lack of story to them and the "MMO" vibes the entire package of dungeons give. There is one or two exceptions to this and while I don't want to spoil it for those who's never been there. The Final boss of the Ghaunadaur temple remains alive upon defeat, incapacitated but alive, which makes another visit to the place just to find it there "make sense". Some dungeons hold beautiful bits of lore here and there, or some emotes that give the place a vibe and an atmosphere, but such is often not very impactful due to how the dungeon "plays".

But except that boss (and another) all things die, Paush dies, Abazuur dies, every monster with a "name" and a story dies and that makes the entire journey lack any "impact" as you casually behead them for the 2675th time in your character's life and take them to some guy that probably have hundreds of similar heads, add up their weakness and ability to be often defeated by a single person or two, and you get the full picture.

Another point is the linear path most dungeons follow, go from point a to point b, kill everything, kill boss (or destroy phylactery before) , walk away, rinse and repeat. We see few puzzles, and we're met with few areas that enhance RP and favor team play.

In the end people wait for DM events to come spice the dull world because DM events hold a narrative, and a difficulty curve that matches the characters (often it it above the characters so they're forced to bond together and join force in one last epic showdown against the super OP thing in order to defeat it, pew pew large explosions, that's fun.)
"A scenario for example is that the door to the final boss can only be opened if people have to activate two levers in completely different parts of the dungeon simultaneously. Or a boss that cannot be defeated, so group A have to hold him back while group B seeks to pillage it's trove and flee. Or a dungeon that changes bosses depending on which week of the month it is, or change entire structures and paths, a dungeon with a lot of doors but they open due to times of the day, and thus depending on when you visit the dungeon it can lead to entirely different places. Bosses with sequential gameplay depending on how low their HP is, etc etc...."

And while the ideas above are probably far too difficult to realize or to ask for every dungeon to feel like a "DM event" is clearly asking for too much considering the limitations of the engine, I think efforts can be made to give every location it's rightful "vibe", give every boss that holds a name and a story a coherent narrative, and make dangerous places actually dangerous, with risks to be taken and rewards to be harvested for the more bold adventurers.

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Re: Dungeons, difficulty, fun, all that.

Post by Sockss » Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:21 pm

Grinding is quicker now, for sure, but writs and adventure XP have a greater benefit for people that actually don't grind constantly. Which is great. You can actually have a journey from 1-30 at a reasonable pace, without being very significantly behind people that grind for hours on end. Rather than be utterly and woefully left behind.

The risk factor is a 'this is a game' point and certainly, a lot of players will feel that way. There are a relatively small amount of players that are comfortable doing end game dungeons (albeit a few more that are comfortable exploiting certain things to do them which is being clamped down on, thankfully). Unlike PvP, PvE should be balanced around the 'average' player, making it very underwhelming if you're better than average - this ensures everything is accessible to everyone.

It's an odd thing to say the lowerdark is dangerous, but then omit any sort of recognition of how ridiculously powerful a level 30 character is with the magic items they have. The danger can, and is with good roleplayers, present in RP.

People acting invincible and 'god-like' are likely to receive a visit from your friendly MoD wielding DM. Again, this is a roleplay issue. You need to suspend some disbelief, because this is a game.

Well, Paush could very easily not be him, just something named him in an image of him (and 100% is not Paush from a lore point of view). Abazuur is only Abazuur because you see a floaty name above his head. It's, really very easy to suspend disbelief of these things and people certainly do. It's necessary because this is a game. Again, if they don't, that's just poor RP.

Puzzles are only as good as the first time someone solves them.

Non-linear dungeons are very annoying. They're not enjoyable. There's nothing inherently fun in walking around in NWN. Again, this is a game.

TLDR: This is a game, you need to suspend some disbelief. If someone says they got murdered 40 times and killed Paush on his own plane 100 times and THESE are his 100 heads as proof. Call him what he is, insane.
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Re: Dungeons, difficulty, fun, all that.

Post by WJLIII3 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:57 pm

There is also an IG lore justification for Abazuur coming back every time that can be found if you look hard enough, though it'll take a lot of asking around I'd imagine.

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Re: Dungeons, difficulty, fun, all that.

Post by Arienette » Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:38 pm

My main (only) criticism of dungeon difficulty is that certain resources such as adamantium are locked behind (imo) inappropriate difficulty.

I think it makes sense for runic chests to be where they are. Finding runes are a gamble, and the result of them is "extra", icing on the cake of a great piece of gear. Something to strive for, over time, to develop your character in endgame.

But adamantium is a different story. The natural progression of "vanilla" gear ends with adamantium. Around lvl 21, people are looking to get their adamantium shield and helmet, etc.

But the location (and quantitity) of adamantium means that lvl-appropriate people have little chance of obtaining it in any useful ammount.

The result is that they depend on higher-lvl buddies, faction help, or just buy it off of lvl 30 wizards who have no personal use for it but farm it to be super-rich.

Is this intentional? Who knows, it might be. But it strikes me as a poor match of difficulty and risk/reward.

Lets say the Orclands fort General/lich area has adamantium. I dont think it does, but I think that boss is appropriate (but risky) for a party of 3 low-epics.

What makes more sense? Risk the bossfight for the *chance* at some unknown ammount of adamantium? Or grind an hour of orcs to make enough money to buy an ingot from the shop of a wizard who can obtain it, solo, at will?

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