Constant Beta?

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JubJub
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Re: Constant Beta?

Post by JubJub » Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:17 pm

My only issue with class tinkering is they seem to swing from too powerful to a big change in other direction too often. Monks clearly got too much, but then the swing to remedy that which took them the other way and was bound to anger monks. I remember when druid/ranger companions were made too powerful and then suddenly they were made useless because they were made vanilla NWN strength. I am not a dev but Is it possible to do smaller class changes, instead of a large complete change of a class? This is why I am always in favor of adding more content, updating areas etc that the whole server can enjoy instead of class tinkering which seems to be a never ending swing of trying to get things right. I love the idea of opening monks to more open interpretation to cover monks from all areas.

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Party in the forest at midnight
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Re: Constant Beta?

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:35 pm

The notion of "constant beta" suggests that because new content is added semi-regularly, that makes it a perpetual beta. Which is silly, because adding new content is a staple of online games. Back when WoW was a good game, it had regular patches with more content in them than most games add in new expansions, including large mechanical changes. Such as nerfs to unbalanced things, new abilities for classes, and so forth. That doesn't mean it's a constant beta. That means they're adding new content. And a lot of broken things end up added to the live release, that may or may not get fixed. Despite this, I don't think I've ever heard anyone call a MMO a "constant beta."

NWN persistent worlds are a different beast, they're tiny and volunteer run, so there's a lot more testing that happens on the live server than a MMO. But in the scope of things breaking after new content is released, I don't think well-managed player worlds are any worse than MMOs after a big patch or expansion. MMO patch day is when people go out to find new exploits that testers didn't catch.

Lastly, betas are a temporary thing. A playground to see if things work, before closing it. Using PotM as an example, if it truly was "beta," isn't it weird that they have test servers for their major hak updates? A beta test server for your beta server. IMO, it's not really a beta. The server is extremely stable, a lot of zones are very persistent, a lot of decisions are cemented.

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Re: Constant Beta?

Post by Infinite Solutions » Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:35 pm

JubJub wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:17 pm
My only issue with class tinkering is they seem to swing from too powerful to a big change in other direction too often.
I agree. Looking at monks, the original change made them uber-powerful for new characters but the changes made feat choices redundant for existing monks or just totally cancelled what those characters were about. So to keep up they'd have to drop back to level 3 and rebuild. Then the monk nerf came and again totally change what a monk is supposed to be. This time at least the rebuild is free but a monk character who's only a year old (which to some of us is not all that long) may have gone through two complete rebuilds and two completely different concepts when it comes to skills and abilities.

The whiplash here is dizzying and frustrating. Not all of us have the luxury of time to burn through dozens of characters or rebuild and grind writs over and over. If you want this to be that kind of game you're welcome to it but you're going to lose we players who are moms and dads with adult responsibilities and limited play time. The attitude that existing characters don't matter and we should all be happy to sacrifice and move to the next seems to be pervasive but I don't think it's as healthy as some think.

I'd rather see these highly experimental revamps that change what feats at attributes you'd choose when building made subclasses or paths instead of completely reworking the base class. I think this weapons based monk should have been an OPTION and one like spellsword that people knew was subject to change, while making some much more simple changes to regular monks that respected existing builds and concepts.

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Re: Constant Beta?

Post by Xerah » Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:56 pm

When these kinds of changes have to go through, it is unfortunate that some things have changed planned concepts for individuals, but these changes need to be done for the betterment of the server.

ALL classes, paths, equipment, spells, etc. are subject to change.

My only issue with class tinkering is they seem to swing from too powerful to a big change in other direction too often.
I do not think this is the case at all. It is a big swing because monks were so far ahead of the power balance that a big change in the opposite direction was required. Looking at some builds and numbers, we're pretty happy about where those things come out now. They still have strong defence, they have decisions to make in epic levels to target a few different things, and their damage (at least with fists) is vastly improved from where it was. They can't do everything now, so given choices are required, I can see why you would say it was a large shift. But that only proves how necessary this large shift was.
Then the monk nerf came and again totally change what a monk is supposed to be.
The monk kept all it's core concepts: Defence abilities (speed, AC and SR), punching, and combat activations. All of those concepts remain. Some of the numbers have gotten adjusted down but you cannot say that it has changed what the monk is supposed to be.
The attitude that existing characters don't matter and we should all be happy to sacrifice and move to the next seems to be pervasive but I don't think it's as healthy as some think.
This is not true at all. If it was, then we wouldn't have offered any rebuilds. This is as honestly as generous as can be.

You'll find that the majority of people here think that it is healthy because it keeps characters fresh by getting new concepts and RP in and out of situations/locations/factions. That is extremely healthy.

We all have responsibilities (I have kids, work, friends, etc.) but we have to work with the time we are given. We can't expect everything to change to accommodate our personal needs. We're not a AAA gaming company, and none of us get paid. We're just trying to do as best as we can to create a place that was fun to come and tell stories, then, at times, there are things that are threats to that fun (in this case, monks) and thus we need to do something about it. I am sorry that you were affected by it, but there really isn't any other option.
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Re: Constant Beta?

Post by God_In_Action » Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:10 pm

Personally I feel quite to the contrary to the original post. The effort that goes into the regular updates makes me want to play more often and I'm always excited to see what comes next. Of course it would be frustrating if big class changes were to make one's character fundamentally different, but it's preferable from a server wide perspective that the player base has new toys to play with.

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Re: Constant Beta?

Post by Ork » Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:18 pm

Xerah wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:56 pm
We all have responsibilities (I have kids, work, friends, etc.) but we have to work with the time we are given. We can't expect everything to change to accommodate our personal needs. We're not a AAA gaming company, and none of us get paid. We're just trying to do as best as we can to create a place that was fun to come and tell stories, then, at times, there are things that are threats to that fun (in this case, monks) and thus we need to do something about it. I am sorry that you were affected by it, but there really isn't any other option.
Without the frequent updates, changes to core mechanics, new class options/paths, and additional goodies — I can honestly say Arelith would not be seeing the success it garners today. While I wish to be sympathetic to the people who are frustrated with class changes that effect them, I also can empathize with the developers and contributors about the frustrations of working with this community.

Arelith is free. It is a massive three server persistent world that has some of the most unique mechanics that vanilla NWN fails to provide. Not to blow smoke here, but a lot of us wouldn't have stuck around without all the changes and new cookies we receive. Those benefits are well worth any minor frustrations had due to necessary nerfs.

I have seen in my time on Arelith a slew of criticisms levied at the developers & contributors. Constructive criticisms with informed, meaningful information are by and large well received. We can see some developer decisions reversed due to respectful and insightful critiques. Criticisms based on frustrations or emotions without meaningful information aren't well received.

Now you know what type of server Arelith is, OP. We hope you stay, but we understand if you go.
Last edited by Ork on Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Constant Beta?

Post by Infinite Solutions » Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:19 pm

You're taking offense and I'm not complaining about you or the change you made, Xerah. You're responding to complaints I am not making. I'm not whining because I lost my monk. The latest monk patch was fine and rebuilds were appreciated (as rebuilds are NOT usually given.) I'm not arguing against change but I am pleading some exhaustion.

The original change to make them master of all weapons, I think, should have been an optional path not a total revamp while making whatever changes were necessary to the base path regarding speed and AB. That could have been handled much better instead of making this generation of overpowered katana monks that came and went.

As far as encouragement to delete and sacrifice- I'm not saying epic characters who outstay their welcome is good either but we may be too far in the other direction. Rapid turnover is alienating too.

I'm not build for arguing on the forum so I'll drop out here. I certainly don't expect change but I hope someone can express frustration without being told they are bad or wrong for it.
Last edited by Infinite Solutions on Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Constant Beta?

Post by Ork » Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:23 pm

Infinite Solutions wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:19 pm
That could have been handled much better instead of making this generation of overpowered katana monks that came and went.
How would you have changed monks? Monks were a boring, dull and uninspired as a class. This breathed new life and there's no denying that monks are better for it. The speed had to go - it allowed characters to manipulate the core mechanics of the game to escape consequence or level a large disadvantage against opponents.

In addition, the "path" option seems to be something the developers are avoiding. We haven't had a new "path" in a very long time. Of course correct me if I'm wrong on that assumption.

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Re: Constant Beta?

Post by Xerah » Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:28 pm

Did really take offence. I just felt a few of the things you wrote were not quite true and I wanted to correct any misconceptions that may come along with them.
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Re: Constant Beta?

Post by Skarain » Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:32 am

I just want to chime in.... i can only speak of my personal experiences, but i have always been deligted to read about updates; regardless if they buff something, nerf another, add new things or remove things. To me, it always means that there are passionate people taking the server forward. And that in my books is always encouraging. When things change in drastic ways, you can always shelf the character or focus more on rp.

As to monks and the eastern influence. Even if it was inspired by Asian martal arts, this is a fantasy world. If magic exists and Monk discipline makes harnessing one type of magic easier, of course everyone who simply can do so is going to harness it and recolor it as their own thing and invention. No such thing as Copyright in Forgotten Realms.

As to weapon types, Arelith is already a place of many immmigrants. All you need is some weird story of a whirlpool planar teleportation of entire Karan Tul merchant vessels to bring characters and influence over.

If Eastern style weapons are not your thing, simply do not use them, or do; up to you.

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Re: Constant Beta?

Post by thimblegiant » Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:57 am

Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:35 pm
The notion of "constant beta" suggests that because new content is added semi-regularly, that makes it a perpetual beta. Which is silly, because adding new content is a staple of online games.
That's why I wrote the title as a question, not as a statement. After the monk update I looked back in the "Arelith Updates" forum, and noticed nearly 7 pages for the past 2 years. That's a bucketload of rolling changes, and this year isn't over. My original post was trying to gauge the planned relative stability of the server so I could better understand if these types of fundamental updates were just part of the flow or a rare event. In other words, was there an end goal in sight where the game mechanics would stabilize, and the focus would be on expanding the world, or if this is just how things roll and always have.

Adding content is awesome - seesawing is not. It would be ideal to be able to pretest, or in the case of changes to classes allow for grandfathering, even if a build is broken, or allowing for a "path" as suggested earlier.

I may just have the wrong personality for this server, I'll have to work that out, but I think Arelith is really cool. I keep an unscientific watch on the player base out of curiosity, and I see a ton of turnover in players, not just characters. Why they leave is hard to say, but this is one player that may drift away because of burnout over the swinginess.

And I'll be honest, I tell myself I just need buck up and go with it and hand wave it away, but on the other hand, it is really why I'm lacking the energy to get back into the game.
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Re: Constant Beta?

Post by Zavandar » Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:29 pm

Grandfathering a broken build is bad and idk why you're advocating for it

There are a lot of reasons changes aren't posted beforehand. Even I agree that it would be nice to see them before they go live (I love theorycrafting and building), but I also understand that posting them ahead of time would create its own issues too. I even say this as someone that has been hit by changes (I played OG spellsword back in the day). I moped a bit but knew it was probably better for the server. OOC build knowledge has more influence over rp than a lot of people think, and while I am not condoning metagaming, I am acknowledging its existence.

When you have cocky monks literally saying IC "I can't die, I'm a monk" and people shelving because suddenly they can't bully people without consequences, you know the right balance decision was made. Monk players have known nerfs were incoming for a while. I pointedly did not make one both because I knew they were busted and because I knew they were going to get nerfed. This is why I have absolutely 0 sympathy for the people upset by them getting hit by the bat.

I know a lot of people that played monks, but only about 2 or 3 that rp'd them. Ironically, they are not complaining about the nerfs. I could even say they got bored with being so busted.

Yes, it's annoying to spend so many hours levelling and creating a character, but people were warned, and I don't think anyone with an actual understanding of mechanics can say this was a bad, undeserved change.

Don't take me wrong, I don't really like change for the sake of it where mechanics are concerned, but the dev team have been keeping things fresh. It's good. Probably one of the better things about the server. With haks, expect many more. Things are always going to be evolving and getting tuned, and that's okay. Not liking that is even okay, but know that you'd be going on not liking a feature of the server.
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Re: Constant Beta?

Post by Subutai » Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:50 pm

On the topic of new monk weapons, I find it interesting that people seem to be taking the stance that the new weapons will be adding an Asian monk flavor, and that by saying that I'd prefer Western weapons to be added to monks in order to prevent "Storm Shadow fantasies".

Have people actually looked at the monk weapon list? Katana monks, kama monks, shuriken monks... the most common, most optimal monk builds already use Japanese weapons. The only decent monk weapon that could be really interpreted as Western is the quarterstaff, which was also used in Eastern martial arts.

The fact is, monks currently exist almost purely as Eastern-style Kara-Turan monks. All their optimal weapons are already Eastern. By arguing that we should add Faerunian weapons like bastard swords, long swords, spears, etc., to monks, I'm not arguing that monks should be restricted to some kind of Western style martial arts monk. Quite the contrary. Adding those weapons to the monk weapon list would expand their versatility when it comes to East vs. West. People who wanted to play Kara-Turan monks would still be able to, as they always have been, while people who wanted to play Calishite or Amnian monks who use culturally appropriate weapons would also be able to.

In fact, I could go so far as to flip the entire thing on its head and say that the people who saying that adding existing Faerunian weapons to the monk list, rather than simply adding more Kara-Turan weapons, are in fact the people opposing Western-flavor martial arts monks, in favor of continuing the East-only monks that NWN has always had.

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Re: Constant Beta?

Post by Gobbo Champion Inc » Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:28 pm

https://youtu.be/EQzLj2RoodQ at 1m20seconds for first quote and 5 min 36 seconds for the second one.

"The only reason we had monks was that Brian spotted wood every time he thought of kung-fu on TV. He was a huge kung-fu fan and he wanted to crawl walls and crap. So that's why they got in there. I do believe that Dave had a sub-order of militant monks in something of his that he may not have included for the sake of brevity."

"I know that Brian was the big push behind monk, because he was running around like a squirrel for several weeks thinking up the monk things and all that, and he was in love with kung-fu, and he'd come in and talk about last night's episode, and I think he was learning how to play the flute. I wouldn't have put in there."

Monks origin in dnd from Tim Kask, TSRs first employee and first editor of dragon magazine.

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Re: Constant Beta?

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:49 pm

Subutai wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:50 pm
On the topic of new monk weapons, I find it interesting that people seem to be taking the stance that the new weapons will be adding an Asian monk flavor, and that by saying that I'd prefer Western weapons to be added to monks in order to prevent "Storm Shadow fantasies".

Have people actually looked at the monk weapon list? Katana monks, kama monks, shuriken monks... the most common, most optimal monk builds already use Japanese weapons. The only decent monk weapon that could be really interpreted as Western is the quarterstaff, which was also used in Eastern martial arts.

The fact is, monks currently exist almost purely as Eastern-style Kara-Turan monks. All their optimal weapons are already Eastern. By arguing that we should add Faerunian weapons like bastard swords, long swords, spears, etc., to monks, I'm not arguing that monks should be restricted to some kind of Western style martial arts monk. Quite the contrary. Adding those weapons to the monk weapon list would expand their versatility when it comes to East vs. West. People who wanted to play Kara-Turan monks would still be able to, as they always have been, while people who wanted to play Calishite or Amnian monks who use culturally appropriate weapons would also be able to.

In fact, I could go so far as to flip the entire thing on its head and say that the people who saying that adding existing Faerunian weapons to the monk list, rather than simply adding more Kara-Turan weapons, are in fact the people opposing Western-flavor martial arts monks, in favor of continuing the East-only monks that NWN has always had.
Cool, did you ever think of suggesting adding whatever weapons you want to see instead of complaining about those on the list to add already? Once you know how to make a custom weapon via haks, adding more is rather easy.

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Re: Constant Beta?

Post by Subutai » Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:05 pm

Gobbo Champion Inc wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:28 pm
https://youtu.be/EQzLj2RoodQ at 1m20seconds for first quote and 5 min 36 seconds for the second one.

"The only reason we had monks was that Brian spotted wood every time he thought of kung-fu on TV. He was a huge kung-fu fan and he wanted to crawl walls and crap. So that's why they got in there. I do believe that Dave had a sub-order of militant monks in something of his that he may not have included for the sake of brevity."

"I know that Brian was the big push behind monk, because he was running around like a squirrel for several weeks thinking up the monk things and all that, and he was in love with kung-fu, and he'd come in and talk about last night's episode, and I think he was learning how to play the flute. I wouldn't have put in there."

Monks origin in dnd from Tim Kask, TSRs first employee and first editor of dragon magazine.
I don't really understand this line of argument, and I've seen it several times. It seems to amount to "Monks have to remain Eastern because they were originally envisioned as Eastern". I don't understand why we need to confine ourselves to what the original idea was.
Babylon System is the Vampire wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:49 pm
Cool, did you ever think of suggesting adding whatever weapons you want to see instead of complaining about those on the list to add already? Once you know how to make a custom weapon via haks, adding more is rather easy.
I've mentioned bastard swords, longswords, longbows, spears several times, and even the currently not-present-in-game glaive once.

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Re: Constant Beta?

Post by Gobbo Champion Inc » Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:32 pm

Western warrior monks, like knights templar/hospitalar, already have a class/archetype in paladin particularily but also certain kinds of clerics. (A small portion of western monks were also priests, to see to the orders spiritual needs.) The monk class at a conceptual level is rooted in eastern monastic traditions.

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Re: Constant Beta?

Post by Subutai » Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:07 pm

Gobbo Champion Inc wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:32 pm
Western warrior monks, like knights templar/hospitalar, already have a class/archetype in paladin particularily but also certain kinds of clerics. (A small portion of western monks were also priests, to see to the orders spiritual needs.) The monk class at a conceptual level is rooted in eastern monastic traditions.
Monks in Forgotten Realms originate both from Kara-Tur and from Calimshan/Amn. Calimshan and Amn are not eastern-influenced, and yet have their own monastic traditions for the monk class. Is it so absurd to consider that perhaps these monastic traditions in Calimshan and Amn would have developed martial arts making use of weapons that are native to Calimshan and Amn, rather than rejecting those weapons and importing all their weapons from Kara-Tur?

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Re: Constant Beta?

Post by Gobbo Champion Inc » Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:22 pm

They use the same monk weapons as their eastern faerunian counterparts. Most of them fight unarmed though.

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Re: Constant Beta?

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:41 pm

You can already use those weapons as a monk, unless you mean with the monk attack per round progression. Sign me up for a monk/ranger/AA though if long bows get that however, at least until its nerfed a day later because that would be busted af.

I'll be honest, I'm not sure what we are arguing here anymore. The point I was trying to make a few posts back is that while we all have our little pet peeves (elven paladins make me twitch every time) the game will never be perfect for anyone, but that's what makes it good for everyone. And while I fully support saying something when its something big, nitpicking over every little thing is just going to make the people that volunteer their time to try and make the game better question why they even bother. So, unless you truly believe that adding the weapons mentioned is going to ruin the game for not only you but many others, wtf are we even talking about?

I don't comment a lot, but I do read a fair bit. You seem like a relatively smart dude, but this here conversation is just dumb.

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Re: Constant Beta?

Post by Subutai » Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:50 pm

Gobbo Champion Inc wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:22 pm
They use the same monk weapons as their eastern faerunian counterparts. Most of them fight unarmed though.
According to the rules, yes, but my question is why do they have to? While there are a few weapons used in martial arts that were, from what I've been able to find, probably more or less specially designed for martial arts, most of them, including the ones in DnD, were generally not.

Kamas, for example, are basically a Southeast Asian sickle. Not a Southeast Asian sickle modified for martial arts, but really just a sickle. Why wouldn't Amnian monks then, for example, develop martial arts using the common Faerunian sickle?

Katanas, the Arelithian monk's new favorite weapon, were just typical Japanese swords, very similar to their predecessors and their ancestors in China. They were never farming tools, but weren't developed for martial arts outside of sword fighting. Why wouldn't Calishite monks develop martial arts using more common Faerunian or Calishite swords?

I have never once said that Arelith shouldn't have Kara-Turan monks. What I've said, and continue to say, is that since monastic traditions have a strong tendency towards developing their martial arts using locally-available weaponry, would it not be completely sensible for Kara-Turan monks to use Kara-Turan weapons, and for Faeruian monks to use Faerunian weapons? If Faerun has its own, independently developed traditions (it does), why should those traditions be inherently confined to Kara-Turan weapons, instead of using their own? If a player wants to play an Amnian monk, why should their Amnian monk be relegated to using Kara-Turan weapons?

As a final note, as I said a long time ago in I think my first post on this topic, martial artists throughout the east used bows, spears, etc., very frequently, so why shouldn't Kara-Turan and Faerunian monks be able to, unless it's an issue of mechanical balance?

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Re: Constant Beta?

Post by Sea Shanties » Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:27 pm

There are some big differences between Faerun and world history--

One, it's a well traveled place, so cultural influences aren't so isolated and adventurers hail from almost every remote corner. Our Europeans would have no concept of what an Asian monk is about but influence here is quite possible.

Two, cultural advancement is somewhat stagnant, it's been "medievalish" for a very very long time. Kind of like they didn't need to industrialize or advance technologically because of magic so they hit an arbitrary late middle ages to renaissance stopping point. But learning didn't freeze and (going to the point above) there is far more knowledge of just about everything in some hands than even the most learned scholar could possibly hope for in our world. Likewise something like a Kara-Tur monastic influence in the middle of a less Asian-influenced country would have centuries to gestate instead of being quickly outdated like it might in ours.

Three, humans dominate but there are many races and cultures beyond their cities. Did hin fists or Sharran monks appropriate the rules of their order from Kara-Tur? (maybe Sharrans did, that could make sense, but who knows with others.) What about underdark monks or extraplanar creatures like Githzerai? I mean I'm not really trying to explain or justify anything in particular but it's there if you want to try.

I do agree monks in D&D are a bit lazy (kamas and shuriken are kind of unnecessary) but the idea of a hybrid Euro-Asian monk isn't any less plausible than many other things. Especially when you get into the actual monk orders which generally can justify their own existence.

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Re: Constant Beta?

Post by Subutai » Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:31 pm

Sea Shanties wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:27 pm
I do agree monks in D&D are a bit lazy (kamas and shuriken are kind of unnecessary) but the idea of a hybrid Euro-Asian monk isn't any less plausible than many other things. Especially when you get into the actual monk orders which generally can justify their own existence.
This is kind of my entire point. In real life, we have eastern-style martial arts monks, and we have western-style tonsure monks who brew beer and stuff. There aren't any western-style monks who do martial arts.

However, that doesn't mean they can't exist in Forgotten Realms. There's nothing wrong with Faerunian monks having some eastern weapons, but I don't think there's anything wrong with them also having some western weapons.

I'm beginning to doubt whether anyone has actually read any of my posts, or if someone just said, "Subutai wants to remove all the eastern weapons from monks" and now that's what everyone's decided my point is.

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Re: Constant Beta?

Post by Sea Shanties » Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:42 pm

Frankly if it was up to me I'd like to see new weapons entirely that make sense in the game world but aren't beholden to real-world history. Ideally having to do with the orders that spawned them. Sharran monks might have concealed daggers, others might have claws or other more developed fist-based weapons to enhance unarmed fighting, I think hin fists of Sheela Peryroyl can turn vegetables into monk throwing weapons which I love..

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R0GUE
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 367
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:10 pm
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Re: Constant Beta?

Post by R0GUE » Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:11 pm

In the 3.5 version of FR Sharran monks had a really cool chakram (a razor sharp circular weapon), it would be cool to have some flavored weapons like that.

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