-losexp

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Tarkus the dog
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-losexp

Post by Tarkus the dog » Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:23 am

Bring back the feature please.

1. Spent 4 months getting gear, about to complete it, and when I do I'll need to drop a few levels to readjust my skills. Am I suddenly not allowed to do this anymore, and need to go back to relying on other characters to enchant my stuff?
2. Pure wild mages are kind of pointless now, I need to get rid of 2 levels to drop down at a level which I dumped discipline, now I need a DM to sort it out and I might get a 'no' because of Roleplay reasons?
3. I just leveled up but the prestige class with skill requirement is unavailable for me -- I just realized I forgot to dump the correct skill last level, now I have to wait on a DM
4. Any other reason that you might want -losexp on demand, the whole reason the command was put in place to begin with

In general I don't think giving DMs more work to do instead of punishing the right players -- or creating a script that prevents the abuse to begin with is the right way to go. Xerah's addition to enchanting was one of the best things added to Arelith, ever. Getting your own gear was the most frustrating thing in the world since you needed somebody else to do it for you (unless you're a mage, haha!), and that somebody else cares much less about your stuff than you do and therefore -- naturally, you are the best candidate for the making of your own gear. I want to say "I don't mind, for as long as I get my relevel in the end" but when I think about the line of people waiting to talk to a DM I don't even want to think about it to begin with. For a place that is supposed to be a safe haven where I can set aside and forget about the daily "Snuggle a Bugbear you" life always gives you, Arelith is slowly becoming a frustrating 'thing' to deal with and this change, regardless of how small it may seem to certain individuals, adds a lot to that frustration.

Please reconsider this.
Last edited by Tarkus the dog on Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Dreams
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Re: -losexp

Post by Dreams » Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:29 am

I agree with the above, this should be reconsidered.

If people are exploiting, punish those people.

-losexp is important for newer players who don't know what they're doing yet. They later learn what they need to change because they didn't have a basic understanding of the game (built over many years that everyone else has), and then have a method of changing it.

It is also important for people who make mistakes as they level-up. It is very easy to overlook some skill that you needed as a prerequisite for a PrC.

Alternatives to removing it entirely:
- Put it on a cooldown.
- Make the minimum lost XP more than 500.
- Track its use.
- Automate a number of free uses of -losexp and then have it require DM oversight when those are spent.

Nerivant
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Re: -losexp

Post by Nerivant » Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:30 am

Heres my two cents for what it's worth. I am not a great builder, I can easily misread a build and forget to level a skill, or take a wrong level at the wrong time and completely bork my entire character's future. Used to be that was a fairly quick and easy fix, but now it will be a long process with a "maybe" outcome. The overwhelming opinion on the discord when this change came through was that if the command is being exploited so heavily, why not set a long timer to it? Something like real life weeks or months. This allows for an odd mistake here or there, doesnt add yet more work to the DMs, and prevents abusing it religiously.

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Dr. B
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Re: -losexp

Post by Dr. B » Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:36 am

Here are my thoughts on this:
Feeding into a focus on mechanics that went against the server's puported focus on RP. Characters would relevel to gain mechanical advantage, with little or no thought given to the RP background for this change.

As an RP server choices should reflect solid commitments, and changes to a character must be made in accordance with their current roleplay.
This is totally at odds with the fact that there are constantly mechanical changes being implemented (and de-implemented) with no in-universe explanation whatsoever.

"A dark fog settled over the land, causing all the monks to lose their proficiencies with a bunch of weapons..."

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Queen Titania
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Re: -losexp

Post by Queen Titania » Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:36 am

Tarkus the dog wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:23 am


1. Spent 4 months getting gear, about to complete it, and when I do I'll need to drop a few levels to readjust my skills. Am I suddenly not allowed to do this anymore, and need to go back to relying on other characters to enchant my stuff?
2. Pure wild mages are kind of pointless now, I need to get rid of 2 levels to drop down at a level which I dumped discipline, now I need a DM to sort it out and I might get a 'no' because of Roleplay reasons?
3. I just leveled up but the prestige class with skill requirement is unavailable for me -- I just realized I forgot to dump the correct skill last level, now I have to wait on a DM
4. Any other reason that you might want -losexp on demand, the whole reason the command was put in place to begin with


1: Yes. This is a RP server, we'd want you to find others. Your character can't do everything. This is a delevel request I'd not grant.

2: Yes, you might get a no, or you might get a pity de-level due to the change, depending on the context and the team decision.

3: You would, and we'd try to get to you as quickly as possible.

4: I'm empathetic for these reasons, but I spent almost an hour chronicling exploits from losexp just from yesterday, more time than I would doing the same number of -delevel requests.

I wasn't aware this change was coming, but from just yesterday's exploits alone, I can understand why it was coming for some time, not to mention all the other reasons chronicled in the announcement on why it got removed. Some are saying punish the exploiters, which makes sense, but we'd be punishing a LOT of people. Disabling -losexp saves us more time than doing that punishment, so I personally agree with the change. I think it's necessary, as hard of a loss it is to swallow.
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Peppermint
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Re: -losexp

Post by Peppermint » Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:41 am

Just put a cooldown on -removexp. Simple fix.

I'm reminded of the nuclear-tier 'solutions' of former Arelith administrations.

What a bizarre remedy to the problem.
Last edited by Peppermint on Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:43 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Irongron
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Re: -losexp

Post by Irongron » Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:42 am

Dr. B wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:36 am
Here are my thoughts on this:
Feeding into a focus on mechanics that went against the server's puported focus on RP. Characters would relevel to gain mechanical advantage, with little or no thought given to the RP background for this change.

As an RP server choices should reflect solid commitments, and changes to a character must be made in accordance with their current roleplay.
This is totally at odds with the fact that there are constantly mechanical changes being implemented (and de-implemented) with no in-universe explanation whatsoever.

"A dark fog settled over the land, causing all the monks to lose their proficiencies with a bunch of weapons..."
Which is why we offer scripted rebuilds with such changes. I really do get that this leaves some players frustrated, but the 'deal with each case of this being exploited/used poorly' advice really is unrealistic in this case. It is a widespread problem, with a number of related exploits, all caused by a feature that is still relatively new to Arelith.

And in reply to the first comment here; yes, absolutely one should be seeking help from another character rather than constantly develling to achieve objectives - that's one of the problems with the function that necessitated this change.

I do understand the frustration with this being removed though. Since its introduction it has become the norm for many players.

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Re: -losexp

Post by RedGiant » Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:49 am

The major frustration here is the that principle non-exploitable use of the -losexp feature was to fix our characters in the face of Arelith's ROBUST change log, which has majorly rewritten everything from tradeskills to basic class functionality.

All responsible players want the exploit hole plugged, but there is still an avalanche of legitimate business in this regard and we certainly aren't done with change.

I just hope we're hiring extra DMs to deal with this policy shift.


[Because really, who wants to see TItania go Unseelie?]
Last edited by RedGiant on Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Tarkus the dog
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Re: -losexp

Post by Tarkus the dog » Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:54 am

DM Titania wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:36 am
Tarkus the dog wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:23 am


1. Spent 4 months getting gear, about to complete it, and when I do I'll need to drop a few levels to readjust my skills. Am I suddenly not allowed to do this anymore, and need to go back to relying on other characters to enchant my stuff?
2. Pure wild mages are kind of pointless now, I need to get rid of 2 levels to drop down at a level which I dumped discipline, now I need a DM to sort it out and I might get a 'no' because of Roleplay reasons?
3. I just leveled up but the prestige class with skill requirement is unavailable for me -- I just realized I forgot to dump the correct skill last level, now I have to wait on a DM
4. Any other reason that you might want -losexp on demand, the whole reason the command was put in place to begin with


1: Yes. This is a RP server, we'd want you to find others. Your character can't do everything. This is a delevel request I'd not grant.

2: Yes, you might get a no, or you might get a pity de-level due to the change, depending on the context and the team decision.

3: You would, and we'd try to get to you as quickly as possible.

4: I'm empathetic for these reasons, but I spent almost an hour chronicling exploits from losexp just from yesterday, more time than I would doing the same number of -delevel requests.

I wasn't aware this change was coming, but from just yesterday's exploits alone, I can understand why it was coming for some time, not to mention all the other reasons chronicled in the announcement on why it got removed. Some are saying punish the exploiters, which makes sense, but we'd be punishing a LOT of people. Disabling -losexp saves us more time than doing that punishment, so I personally agree with the change. I think it's necessary, as hard of a loss it is to swallow.
Why is it entirely seemly for a level 27 wizard to get Tier 3 enchanting for free, without investing a single feat or skill into it, but any other character who does not get a free tier from their class levels, needs to invest 35 skill points or a feat (and on top of that, wizards get so many skills they don't know what to do with, most of them take craft armor and craft weapon anyway, so that they can dump more points when crafting stuff).

Why am I being punished for a change I did not see coming, and am suddenly given a "Nope, that's a request I'd not grant" because I did not for-see the future in which -losexp is no longer an option? I could use a more serious example, but instead I'll go something along the lines of -- What if bikes were outlawed the next day, andif you are a bike owner -- Well Snuggle you! You can no longer ride you bike. Should have invested in learning how to drive a car.

Why must I be given pity in order for you to agree to delevel my character who was made inferior due to the last update?

Why are we discussing 'Roleplay' and 'Mechanical Benefit' in a server where new players are demotivated on every turn due to all the talk about being 'robust' and 'optimal' that you see nowadays? In a place where people first figure out what build they want to play, and then their character? Don't get me wrong, I came here, and am still here, because it is a roleplaying server -- But the game itself is a huge part of the, well, game.
Disabling -losexp saves us more time than doing that punishment, so I personally agree with the change.
Punishing people who never did anything wrong in the first place saves you more time than punishing those who did abuse the system? In which reality does this make any sense?

I don't think you even realize what your server even is. I'm a big fan of Arelith. I'm your number one guy hating the place, but I'm also your number one guy loving it. For all it's flaws and weaknesses, it is absolutely the number 1 place on Neverwinter Nights. I know this because I've tried other places. Not to give anyone bad rep, but Arelith does certain things right. And largely, because it is -- simply, fun. Pushing me to play a mage ( a class I have no interest of playing ) and getting rid of features that make the game enjoyable to begin with is really, really, really not the way to go about this. In the end, it's just a game, one I've grown very attached too over the years ( and others included ). I'm not losing my fingers here. But please, consider your options here.
And in reply to the first comment here; yes, absolutely one should be seeking help from another character rather than constantly develling to achieve objectives - that's one of the problems with the function that necessitated this change.
I'm not deleveling constantly. I planned on deleveling eventually. To get rid of the 35 crafting points and to take something else. I never though this was considered a no-no. I am not sure why am I punished for something someone else did, or more importantly -- why was I not informed in the first place that this is considered a no-no.

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Cortex
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Re: -losexp

Post by Cortex » Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:58 am

I don't see the point when you can add scripted safeties, such as a cooldown/timer, scripts that remove languages if a character no longer qualifies, make it so you don't lose crafting ranks on delevel, a check for what feats changed. I do not speak for the DMs but I wouldn't want to be dealing with delevel requests when there's far more pressing or interesting things to do.

This is just a step back, not too differently from removing adventure XP on the grounds people are leveling too fast and focuses too much on mechanics over RP, a statement that I'll say, makes no sense.

Please revert this, there is no good benefit from this. I say this as someone who's ever only used -losexp when I made a mistake on level up.
:)

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Tarkus the dog
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Re: -losexp

Post by Tarkus the dog » Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:04 am

I also forgot to point out that 'needing a roleplay reason' because your character is sub-par compared to every other character on the server, and you want to undo some things is absolutely absurd. I cannot find a roleplay reason because I'm a new player who thinks that skill focus: intimidate is useful. I also can't find a roleplay reason to switch to unarmed from katanas because katana monks are pretty awful now. You cannot expect people to adjust both their roleplay and their build to those of the many updates that keep popping up. Why were monks given a free relevel, but wild mages weren't? Why am I not given a free relevel now that I know that my character is made weaker? I don't think I'm asking for too much here.

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Re: -losexp

Post by Twily » Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:09 am

I'm actually surprisingly okay with this change.

I did use -losexp relatively often; my most recent use of -losexp was yesterday, to swap my sorcerers spells to contain a few of the new ones. I feel like this is the sort of request that any DM would have no problem granting though.

If the removal of this will ultimately save work for the DMs, then it's completely fine by me.
It is an inconvenience, but it's far from the end of the world.

It's how things were for years before the command was added, and there was rarely a huge problem.


Edit:
Although I will say, if a request such as wanting to change a sorcerer's spells due to new ones being added is denied, I'd have complaints with that, as it'd mean any existing spontaneously caster who is already 30 can't ever learn any of the new spells, where as even a L29 sorc can learn as many as they want.

I add this after reading Orian_666's post titled New Spell Availability in Q&A. The replies seem to make it vague, whether this would or would not be allowed. I can understand it not being permitted in the case of wizards which can learn on L30 through scrolls made by new wizards(all of which have scribe scroll), but I'd have an issue with Sorcs/Bards being included in this since they wouldn't have that chance.
Last edited by Twily on Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:28 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Peppermint
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Re: -losexp

Post by Peppermint » Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:12 am

It's not the same as before. You could delevel with a book (or death) before. That option has been removed.

If I mess up my character, I'm going to approach a DM now. I'm not going to have a "roleplay" reason for my adjustment, because the vast majority of adjustments come down to "oops, I messed up". (Though if that constitutes "roleplay" in the eyes of the current team, great, I suppose.)

Really, I'm agreeing with Red Giant guys. We disagree on everything, but we agree on this. That can't be a good sign.

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Re: -losexp

Post by Za-Lord~s Guard » Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:19 am

This also affects professions. The world isn't ending for it, but it does pose an inconvenience.

Using losexp, you could rework your character's professions slowly over time if you decided you wanted to lean a little more into a specific kind of crafting than the one you originally picked. It was a very gradual way of changing (2 points at a time, usually) that prevented master blacksmiths from suddenly switching to being expert alchemists but still allowed a character to reasonably branch off and change their specialties over time.

As I understand it, the removal of losexp means that it's no longer possible to rework your crafting skills at all; they're set in stone, unless a DM grants a craft skill rebuild.
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NauVaseline
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Re: -losexp

Post by NauVaseline » Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:02 am

If you want to stop level 30's from exploiting, prevent them from using the -losexp command. And implement peppermint's cooldown timer. By time a character reaches thirty it's player is likely to have identified any 'oopsies', and in the case of noobs, learned a great deal about how they should build their character's.

Please stop using nukes.

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Re: -losexp

Post by Peppermint » Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:18 am

No need to prevent a relevel at 30. The biggest issue is exploiting the craft system.

Implement a cooldown and flag the DMs whenever a character relevels to dump craft feats/skills, and you're golden. Takes far less time from the DMs than handling every case manually, too.

Admittedly, I'm also concerned about this notion that mechanics and roleplay are somehow diametrically opposed. They're not. If you want to play the "powerful archwizard", having a grasp on mechanics really helps sell the concept. If you want to be a "trickster rogue", having a grasp on mechanics helps sell the concept by picking the right skills and feats. Moreover, meaningful roleplay is very conflict-driven, and mechanics do have a bearing on conflict. You need look no further than a mere week ago to pre-nerf monks for an (admittedly negative) example of how mechanics influence RP (and muck up lots of DM events, too!)

I was a bit short in my initial post. Perhaps I shouldn't have been. But frankly, I'm just flabbergasted that the role of mechanics in roleplay is being overlooked on an ostensibly roleplay-focused server. Especially when we've examples as recent as last week.

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Re: -losexp

Post by Might-N-Magic » Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:24 am

My biggest case for keeping -losexp viable and ingame is a simple one, to the staff... You run an extremely volatile game. You change things all the time, sometimes 2, 3 times a week or more. And these aren't small changes, they're often HUGE. You make additions. You take things away. You make changes. Some make sense. Some seemingly on whims. A skill or feat that was mechanically worthless for 17 years now is "must have" because a coder gets an urge.

So now I have to sit down and blather a DM for reasons that I'd like to keep my character playable? Mind you, anytime you bring in a human to make judgements, you also bring in favoritism. DM doesn't like you, says no, character no longer viable. Might as well roll him. Tough luck, buttercup.

Mind you, this is particularly insulting: "The function was enabling character to exist indefinitely, simply by essentially remaking their character every few months"

So what? So now we can't choose how long we want to keep playing our characters? Some DM thinks Joe Bard has been around long enough, decides to enact some change purely to destroy his viability in an attempt to convince the player to roll him? This is your justification? Players having the freedom to decide when they're done with their characters?

I can understand wanting to stomp out an exploit. That's reasonable. That's easily fixable with a cooldown. The rest that came with this? Mind-blowing, in a bad, arrogant way.

NauVaseline
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Re: -losexp

Post by NauVaseline » Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:27 am

Peppermint wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:18 am
No need to prevent a relevel at 30. The biggest issue is exploiting the craft system.
How would you prevent people from swapping feats at level 30?
Might-N-Magic wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:24 am
*beautifully put words*
+1
Last edited by NauVaseline on Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Cortex
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Re: -losexp

Post by Cortex » Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:28 am

Might-N-Magic wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:24 am
My biggest case for keeping -losexp viable and ingame is a simple one, to the staff... You run an extremely volatile game. You change things all the time, sometimes 2, 3 times a week or more. And these aren't small changes, they're often HUGE. You make additions. You take things away. You make changes. Some make sense. Some seemingly on whims. A skill or feat that was mechanically worthless for 17 years now is "must have" because a coder gets an urge.

So now I have to sit down and blather a DM for reasons that I'd like to keep my character playable? Mind you, anytime you bring in a human to make judgements, you also bring in favoritism. DM doesn't like you, says no, character no longer viable. Might as well roll him. Tough luck, buttercup.

Mind you, this is particularly insulting: "The function was enabling character to exist indefinitely, simply by essentially remaking their character every few months"

So what? So now we can't choose how long we want to keep playing our characters? Some DM thinks Joe Bard has been around long enough, decides to enact some change purely to destroy his viability in an attempt to convince the player to roll him? This is your justification? Players having the freedom to decide when they're done with their characters?

I can understand wanting to stomp out an exploit. That's reasonable. That's easily fixable with a cooldown. The rest that came with this? Mind-blowing, in a bad, arrogant way.
Amazingly well put.
:)

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Re: -losexp

Post by Queen Titania » Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:29 am

Za-Lord~s Guard wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:19 am
This also affects professions. The world isn't ending for it, but it does pose an inconvenience.

Using losexp, you could rework your character's professions slowly over time if you decided you wanted to lean a little more into a specific kind of crafting than the one you originally picked. It was a very gradual way of changing (2 points at a time, usually) that prevented master blacksmiths from suddenly switching to being expert alchemists but still allowed a character to reasonably branch off and change their specialties over time.

As I understand it, the removal of losexp means that it's no longer possible to rework your crafting skills at all; they're set in stone, unless a DM grants a craft skill rebuild.
I'd help a crafting skill reallocation in this case given the RP, but it'd be nice if this situation had some mechanical support for gradual change, as the DM way would have you do it suddenly rather than overtime.
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Re: -losexp

Post by Peppermint » Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:42 am

NauVaseline wrote:How would you prevent people from swapping feats at level 30?
You don't need to if it's on a cooldown. If there's a two week downtime between adjustments, releveling just to swap for PvP or whatever becomes impractical.

If losing craft feats is flagged, releveling to exploit the craft system becomes impossible.

The only remaining uses of the -losexp chat command are completely valid and require no policing.

NauVaseline
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Re: -losexp

Post by NauVaseline » Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:57 am

Peppermint wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:42 am
You don't need to if it's on a cooldown. If there's a two week downtime between adjustments, releveling just to swap for PvP or whatever becomes impractical.

If losing craft feats is flagged, releveling to exploit the craft system becomes impossible.

The only remaining uses of the -losexp chat command are completely valid and require no policing.
This is infinitely better than what we have now.

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Re: -losexp

Post by TimeAdept » Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:19 am

Peppermint, Cortex, Tarkus and Might n Magic have said my point more eloquently than I would have, so I won't repeat myself for paragraphs, just enough to lend my post in support of what they're saying.

It's disappointing to see a series of poorly made decisions in the last few months that are reflective of really out of touch high end management on the server. The year in general has been a herald of poorly made decisions on a dev and design direction level that directly go against the credo of the server in its support for an immersive roleplaying experience that keeps players in relative creative control and freedom of the overall meta-narrative, while also supporting them in actually playing the game that we're all also playing alongside the written word. Some of these decisions are never overturned, and some of them are only fixed months down the line, long after the damage was done, and long after words of caution to that exact end had already been said, and ignored.

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Re: -losexp

Post by Archnon » Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:49 am

I know that I am a new player compared to all of you but wanted to play devils advocate for a moment and say that I think this is a good move. I bought the game when it launched on EE and it was my first time playing NWN in probably 10 years.

My first character on the server was a monk (this was well before the updates, actually rolled him shortly after the updates) and he was pathetically broken. I rebuilt that character down to level 3 over and over again. First ranger, then cleric, then shadowdancer, then pure monk, all this before the updates. I had an RP idea, but I had no concept of how to build a character. My second character wasn't any better. It was a shadowmage and it was miserable. I took the dip in SD, it was worthless, didn't know what to do. However, I did something different with this character. I Rp'ed it in spite of being a totally flawed build and it was fun. I made friends and found a home for my third active character. (I rolled the first two off)

My third character settled into the same local as my second and tried to pick things up in a different direction. I had more knowledge of builds but I still rebuilt once after about 12 levels, All the way back down to 3. At this point I realized something and have since sworn off the losexp command. I still wonk out builds, had to take a level i didn't intend at level 20 last week because I didn't understand how BAB stacked for multiclassing. I stopped rebuilding for a different reason.

I think as a video game community, we approach games to maximize output. DPS, kills, pvp potential, shoot, even maxing out certain skills. Honestly, it is how the mind works with games, it is natural. However, I realized that in all of my rebuilds, i could have played 5 different characters, tried on different personalities and RP flavors and had more fun. Further, the people I really enjoy playing with all have flawed builds but have really fun interactions. In the end, we aren't building the optimal tanks, we are building characters, and much like people in RL, they are inevitably going to be flawed both narratively and with regard to skills and abilities. There isn't a person posting here who can't look at themselves in RL and say that they aren't ridiculously flawed. I think this new rule should be used to embrace those failures a little more. Run with the character that you botched by taking those paladin levels. Make it part of your RP, play the story out and well, if you get to level 21 and it is just not functional, Roll it and start again. Breath some new life into the server with a fresh set of failures. I think the -lose_xp command creates the temptation that, if i could just go back and take that level differently or stack my feats slightly differently, or adjust my spells, i could be better. I fell into this trap and regretted it. Get rid of the temptation, treat past levels as the past and move on! That is my humble opinion, so be it if it isn't popular.

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Scylon
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Re: -losexp

Post by Scylon » Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:54 am

I'm failing to see a decent case for the argument here. Re levels because you want to stay powerful shouldn't be a thing and that is basically the only argument I'm seeing here (other then the one about changing crafting professions which shouldn't be allowed either). In an MMO environment, which this kind of is you typically don't get a free replacement class cause the one you play isn't the best any more.

The idea (I thought) was as you level it is like a RP journey, and you gain powers etc as you go along. I have limited time to play myself and level very slowly any way. Myself I planed my characters levels out before I started playing on the server and wouldn't have ever considered re leveling anyway. I see class changes the same as a "respec" when they are huge, and they are offering a free re levels.

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