-losexp

[Peppermint]

No one is going to use -losexp to change a character's class for powergaming reasons. The resulting build would have all the wrong stats for the new class. It would be terrible. The notion that droves of players have been using it to min/max their way to victory is frankly very silly. That's just not how the game works.

-losexp is usually used to fix a recent mistake or to try to salvage a build that's simply unplayable on Arelith (i.e. usually for a new player). Nobody wants to start over from level 3 because they forgot to take blind fight on their rogue.

[Scylon]

It might be harsh, but I think if in that instance you provided, getting to level 30 and realizing you forgot a feat it is a case of either too late, or request help from a DM.

As a player who has only been around a couple of months myself, if I screw up my build I'm happy to ware it, which is why I planed out my character before I started. For example I really regret picking necro as my specialization thinking enchaantment would be more useful, but meh, I'll live with it.

[Memento Mori]

It might be harsh, but I think if in that instance you provided, getting to level 30 and realizing you forgot a feat it is a case of either too late, or request help from a DM.

As a player who has only been around a couple of months myself, if I screw up my build I'm happy to ware it, which is why I planed out my character before I started. For example I really regret picking necro as my specialization thinking enchaantment would be more useful, but meh, I'll live with it.

Typically DMs don't offer rebuilds (loss of xp with regaining it back after making changes) except in extreme cases where classes are completely rehauled at its core (Feylocks, and more recently Monks).

The whole reason the -losexp command was implemented was to stop players asking DMs to remove certain amounts of xp to fix mistakes in the level process. It took up so much time that could have been spent doing other work (like glossing over logs, observing players for RPR boosts, and running events).

Not to mention that the DM team isn't on all the time, and if you happen to be in certain timezones, or if the online DM is busy, you're likely going to be waiting a long time or slip through the cracks when it comes to fixing a mistake from last level.

Lastly, not all players are happy to wear their mistakes on their characters. Many builds are horribly unforgiving if you forget to take a feat by a certain level, or if you pick the wrong ones. And it's really unfortunate that exploiters make people suffer inconvenience like this over a slip in memory or simply misreading their build when they level.

---

The best option, I think, would to be reinstating the -losexp command, but putting it on a timer. I saw somewhere else someone suggested a month (which is a bit too long for my taste). I'd probably suggest bringing it down to once a week. It's long enough to discourage exploiters from using it to "game" the scroll learning system, but not so long that people who make mistakes while leveling will feel lost.

Additionally, maybe instead of having to type out the amount of xp you want to lose (many people do just 1 xp under previous level, in order to relevel on the RPR tick), have a menu that pops up that allows you to select what level you want to go to, like the PGCC. And have it so that you have just enough xp to qualify for that level, not 1 xp away from the one after. For a someone trying to get back to 30, that's a 29,000 xp penalty. This would also discourage/dissuade exploiters because instead of just one RPR tick away from getting new feats or learned spells, they'd have to grind out an entire level's worth.

[Aren]

So last saturday I tried contacting the DM team regarding the possibility for a rebuild, since my character had spent 5 feats on katanas - planning to dip into monk at mid epics - only to see them removed as a monk weapon in the monk updates. As my character hadn’t yet reached his dip level, I wasn’t offered the complimentary rebuild - hence my request.

It took 5 days to get a response - and the response was this: “Of course you can’t have a rebuild. It was only for monks.”

So my brother and I did the only thing we could to keep our characters alive (and viable), we -losexp 160.000 from being almost level 21, down to the level below our first katana feat.

Not being able to effectively play our characters for five days, waiting for a answer on my/our request, only to be told “of course you won’t get a rebuild” - how do I eloquently put it - quite dissatisfying. I don’t mind not getting the rebuild, but taking 5 days to get an answer - well let’s just say I learned not to count on the DMs for such things, and I’d rather effectively remove weeks of work, than to wait a work week for an answer that seemed to be decided even before I wrote my inquiry. I can’t imagine doing that ever again.

My point is: I’d rather not bother the DMs with requests in the future. I’d rather just do the -losexp and get it over with.
Now this isn’t an option, and suddenly my characters viability, should new unforeseen changes happen that affect my character peripherally, is no longer is my own hands.

This is a bad decision, that’s made to punish a (I hope) few people, but in the end punishes everyone.
Rethink it.

(Edited: writing)

[Durvayas]

This is an abysmally bad design decision.

There is no sugarcoating this; This WILL hurt the server in the long run and cause people to leave. Perhaps not on its own, but there have been a number of frankly poor design decisions going in of late, and the server's direction is beginning to seem questionable, especially as things are changing absolutely constantly. Removing the ability to fix build errors or adjust to ANY changes(which is a critical need) whatsoever without handholding from DMs is guaranteed to be a very frustrating experience for everyone, including said DMs.


By all means, stop exploiting of languages and trade skills, we're all for it. But this is the definition of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

[Sea Shanties]

This was one of the hallmarks of Arelith that set it apart from almost every other server where getting a rebuild is either out of the question or requires DM assistance. Even the ability to use deity books to fix a feat choice mistake 15 years ago set Arelith ahead of the curve and was one of the reasons I (and I am sure, a lot of others) settled here when the NWN landscape was a lot more populated. It was a wonderful feature that gave players some agency to handle their own problems, take a chance on feats and builds they aren't sure about etc.

I don't want to go as harsh as some have here but I also think this is a mistake that chips away at what makes Arelith unique and special. I think punishing the whole class for a few kids acting out fosters an us vs them mentality which is a shame because I never used to feel that way about the devs and DMs. Surely the holes can be plugged on the exploits that matter or some other limiter put in place instead.

[monkeywithstick]

As a related thing (albeit an edge case) what is happening regarding alignment shifts that force a delevel (losing lawful when you are a monk, or lawful good whilst a paladin)? I believe in the past a DM would forced delevel to remove the offending class. Is this now being done differently or is the fact it is already DM handled going to address this case by case?

On the whole, I think it's a positive step. There seems to be a lot of hyperbole about characters becoming "unplayable". The only change of late that might have made a character truly unplayably poorly built as a result was the monk rebalance, which, crucially, offered a scripted rebuild. For more minor changes, we're not talking about unplayable, we're talking about slightly less optimal in PvP.
I will accept it is probably saddening for some people to have characters lose a couple of 5%s against their competitors.

I also welcome that I will no longer have to endure the jarring "I used to fight dragons with you but now I'm trawling the Cordor sewers hunting rats because I wanted to change a feat in my build" as often. Everyone always had an RP excuse for it, but most of them came across as excuse rather than story and my immersion suffered.

[DM Axis]

In regards to 'new alignment doesn't mesh with the class', such as the more chaotic monk, those are done on a case by case basis and has been done previously in the past prior to this change. Alignments are only able to be shifted by DMs (the only exception to this being bards on character creation do get asked if they want to be lawful since Arelith allows that).

[ltlukoziuz]

A year ago my reaction would be different. My very first character, Delor, was a steaming pile of crap mechanically, a sorc/fight/AA. Still, the git guds tried helping me, and that's when I learned to go at my characters more methodically, making a gdoc before pressing play on NWN. So now my reaction is just... "Eh..." now

I do stand with the comments suggesting either month-long CD or only giving the command to accounts newer than 3-6 months old, as it does hurt new players (hey, we're having an expedition to Shadovar... Sucks that you cant join because you would just immediately die on a fart) but otherwise... This doesn't really feel like big change. I wouldn't have touched that command without DM approval before -loseexp was removed anyway.

[Sockss]

I don't understand this either, it seems that it will stop player exploiting /this/ way.

Though it doesn't stop the exploit, unless you are going to stop people delevelling from death which would have some pretty funny connotations for RP.

So, really you've punished legitimate use to solve nothing.

It'd be pretty easy to log someone taking advantage by switching between craft feats/skills, or checking for languages they shouldn't have - I had presumed that happened already tbh.

Best of luck espescially to bards and sorcerors with new spells, and the dm's flooded with needless requests.

This doesn't seem very well thought out at all.

[Aren]

So, really you've punished legitimate use to solve nothing.

This doesn't seem very well thought out at all.

+1

[ltlukoziuz]

Though it doesn't stop the exploit, unless you are going to stop people delevelling from death which would have some pretty funny connotations for RP.

You can't delevel from death or god changes anymore afaik.

[Sockss]

Though it doesn't stop the exploit, unless you are going to stop people delevelling from death which would have some pretty funny connotations for RP.

You can't delevel from death or god changes anymore afaik.

LOL

That can't be real.

[ltlukoziuz]

Though it doesn't stop the exploit, unless you are going to stop people delevelling from death which would have some pretty funny connotations for RP.

You can't delevel from death or god changes anymore afaik.

LOL

That can't be real.

That's what they said today *shrugs*

[Sockss]

Wew

[Radki]

Alright... so today I got quite a confusion when I sit down to my laptop. Not so long ago, I saw Titania saying that exploiting of scroll scribing wizards is bad and I agree with that, since all kind of exploiting is bad and even boring to do. However she also said that changing spells for bards/sorcerers is perfectly fine.

And boom, next day you greet lost of -losexp, ironic for spontaneous casting, eh?

RPing that you are practicing some new spells as sorcerer or bard, but you happen to have short memory so you basically forgot what you were using some time ago... is kinda ok, but now with this update, sorcs and bards are hit with whole beam in the knee in comparison to other casters, since it locks their flexibility to absolute 30%, since you're not allowed to change past 30 lvl, because you've just reached the legendary final form.

For example, we get another patch with spells, but wait, 30 lvl bards or sorcerers are dumb and can't learn anything new, while druids or clerics just are like "Oh, what a brand new day, Mystra/Llolth/Rillifane Rallathil granted me new spells, awesome" and wizards are "Oh, I found a fancy scroll on the shelf, let's learn the magic that it holds." which is way too punitive for spontaneous casting classes. In my opinion exploiting scrolls is a low trouble anyway, since wizards sooner or later will have access to EVERY spell, it's better to focus on fixing some stuff, like double domination issue that was touched many times instead of fighting with playerbase.

I don't think it will be a hassle to put for example 6 hours, 3 days or even week cooldown for -losexp command that will cause lvl drop, heck, you can even apply attribute loss, just as you suffer from respawning. Either to track people that exploit loss of level to get more spells via scribing or learn langauages they are supposed to never know, for example 1 temporary dip in ranger, just to get enlighted that you can speak in animal language fluently. Not to mention that determined players that are tired of waiting to get DM attention will find a creative way to lose exp.

In addition DMs will soon complain that people wish their assistance with losing exp because they made a silly mistake, like I once did by picking wizard instead of sorc after ranger dip, because I was fooling with wizard build for friend on PGCC whole day. The question will be "Em... excuse me, but could any DM delevel me by one level, because I missclicked skill/feat/spell/companion/attribute/anything" and you will have to wait sometimes a very long time to actually anything to happen. The command itself releases DMs from pile of questions and allows even 30lvl epics to grow together with changing world of Arelith without waiting for someone to help him.

What bothers me is the way how the server is implemending more and more weird rules and restrictions, often illogical, forcing new players to drop off because of lack of repairing their mistakes that new player are supposed to make in order to learn, but not to kill whole character in process, people's nature is to change, so why disabling them to do so?

[Aren]

Another thing that's interesting about this change, is the fact that if you desire a de-level, you must then compose a viable IG-reason for your character to do so, to be scrutinised by the team. This in turn results in the future of your character being solely in the hands of the DM team and thus - subject to their whims.

People who, for one reason or another, cannot argue well enough for why their character should be eligible for a de-level, in a way that satisfies the DM - are stuck.

This update takes away a great deal of agency from the average player to play his/her character the way they want. I consider this a step in the wrong direction.

[Opustus]

Apart from exploiting, the removal of the -losexp command is meant to necessitate a narrative purpose for mechanical character changes. It's a bit "nannying" in my humbledore, a kind of policy I would personally not vote for, but it seems to be made to enforce a stricter standard of RP (the requirement of narrative justification of rebuilding or adjustment of builds; builds being a representation of your character). If as a player you agree with that, you might also find another reason to why the change might be a good one for the server's integrity.

The question will be "Em... excuse me, but could any DM delevel me by one level, because I missclicked skill/feat/spell/companion/attribute/anything" and you will have to wait sometimes a very long time to actually anything to happen.

Speaking from experience, levelling mistakes are really common. Without the losexp, the character probably stops levelling for a while until they can check a DM to give them a 1 level redo. This sounds a bit taxing on DMs, because it redirects time from narrative efforts into paperwork. For players it's just a nuisance, treating Aussies a bit unfavorably as always.

Suggestion: Make relevel of the most recent level possible via the -losexp command. Lock the command for level 30 characters to block misuse.

[Artenides]

A skill or feat that was mechanically worthless for 17 years now is "must have" because a coder gets an urge.

I am sad to see you think this is how we work because in reality it is quite the opposite. If a dev proposes an idea we often spend a lot of time discussing the pros and cons, possible exploits and RP opportunities as well. If the change does not get approved we simply don't do it. When you see that a feature going live and it was a "Courtesy of X", that doesn't mean X is the only dev that came up with the idea, designed it without discussing it with anybody, implemented the change and pushed it. It means X worked on that feature after thoroughly discussing it with the rest of the devs, admins, DMs.

[Sockss]

If this is the

A skill or feat that was mechanically worthless for 17 years now is "must have" because a coder gets an urge.

I am sad to see you think this is how we work because in reality it is quite the opposite. If a dev proposes an idea we often spend a lot of time discussing the pros and cons, possible exploits and RP opportunities as well. If the change does not get approved we simply don't do it. When you see that a feature going live and it was a "Courtesy of X", that doesn't mean X is the only dev that came up with the idea, designed it without discussing it with anybody, implemented the change and pushed it. It means X worked on that feature after thoroughly discussing it with the rest of the devs, admins, DMs.

If this is the case and things are discussed thoroughly at length. Why do we have such (necessary) drastic changes post updates?

[Dreams]

If a dev proposes an idea we often spend a lot of time discussing the pros and cons, possible exploits and RP opportunities as well. If the change does not get approved we simply don't do it. When you see that a feature going live and it was a "Courtesy of X", that doesn't mean X is the only dev that came up with the idea, designed it without discussing it with anybody, implemented the change and pushed it. It means X worked on that feature after thoroughly discussing it with the rest of the devs, admins, DMs.

Is this what happened with monk? (The Superman-power version, not the most recent change.)

[monkeywithstick]

viewtopic.php?f=37&t=25250&p=201941#p201941

IG already spoke at length about how the monk balance issues came to be.

Relatedly I have never seen a large scale RP system be that fest LRP or a PW that didn't need to iterate its rules. And most of these are using bespoke systems designed around large scale RP. NWN is nailed to DnD 3.0 which was not.

No rules system ever survives contact with a playerbase as large as Arelith has. 1000 players will invariably think of things that a handful of devs and DMs didn't.

[Huschpfusch]

Losexp is gone for now. No reason to panic.
On first page of this thread Titania said:

4: I'm empathetic for these reasons, but I spent almost an hour chronicling exploits from losexp just from yesterday, more time than I would doing the same number of -delevel requests.

So time now is already wasted on paperwork. So shifting from 1hour exploitdealing to <1h requesthandling would free up a little narrative DM-time. And if the change does not turn out the way as intended (=requesthandling>exploitdealing) probably they will either roll back on the decision or make adjustments picking up stuff from here.

[Aren]

Losexp is gone for now. No reason to panic.
On first page of this thread Titania said:

4: I'm empathetic for these reasons, but I spent almost an hour chronicling exploits from losexp just from yesterday, more time than I would doing the same number of -delevel requests.

So time now is already wasted on paperwork. So shifting from 1hour exploitdealing to <1h requesthandling would free up a little narrative DM-time. And if the change does not turn out the way as intended (=requesthandling>exploitdealing) probably they will either roll back on the decision or make adjustments picking up stuff from here.

I wonder how much time is used on average to chronicle exploitive behaviour from -losexp. One could assume that the exploits that took almost an hour to chronicle most likely were due to the massive changes to spells, and wizards de-leveling to test these out - as the spell changes weren't implemented on the PGCC immediately. I'm not saying that its okay to de-level in such a manner, I'm saying that one could be lead to assume that there is a recent surge in -losexp exploiting due to the changes, thus one hour chronicling might not be a representative average. But I can only speculate.

[Philly]

1. Spent 4 months getting gear, about to complete it, and when I do I'll need to drop a few levels to readjust my skills. Am I suddenly not allowed to do this anymore, and need to go back to relying on other characters to enchant my stuff?

As someone who built a character whose sole purpose was to be a craftsman/enchanter, this comment frustrates me to the point that it makes me consider continuing playing my character, or playing on this server at all. Do you not see how this completely ignores role play and is purely a mechanical exploit? Why are people's goals these days to get to 30 with the latest/greatest, and cram +1 uni onto each item? What game are we actually playing here?

I play Philburt Phrumplestone...I have 3 levels in enchantment, and esf craft weapon and esf craft armor. Before the enchantment change all walks of life would come to Brogendenstein to get help with enchanted wares. I spend hours writing item descriptions for enchanted wares I sell, or used to sell at least. It led to meeting awesome characters, engaging role play, and it really felt like my character was a tradesman, not a fighter. Ever since the enchantment change, this has changed with it. I hated the change, it was homogonezation...this 'everyone can do everything' mentality that is quite honestly, the death of role play. But I took it on the chin, kept all my feats(and let's face it, nobody has taken enchantment since the mechanical change) and figured out different ways to role play a hobbly old man who prefers to not spend his weekends on red dragon isle.

Let's use a scenario. You're in a public place, and you finish your last piece of gear. Congratulations. Some folk around you see you working the basin and ask the next day for some enchantment help. Everyone who's played an enchanter knows that the sound of enchantment success used to be like blood in the water to sharks. What do you say? "No sorry, the delicate and painstaking manipulation of arcane runes was just a fleeting hobby that I don't do anymore...nowadays I just don't fall down as much. Oh also I worship a totally different deity now. That other guy? Yikes...what was I thinking"

I honestly had no idea people were exploiting the game in this manner, but it certainly explains why the roleplay that was 90% of my game time with Phil for almost a year has diminished to only getting work when someone has an item runed in Dwarven. I also feel frustrated delving through Umbrick's Halls hoping to find some of the new scrolls, only to find some vendor selling ALL the new spells. "HOW DID HE FIND THEM ALL ALREADY?!".

I have an alt that I play very infrequently. Just two days ago I botched a feat choice at level 21 and rolled back my xp by like 100 to fix it. I do believe that was how this was intended to be used, and I would have been quite salty when I found it removed. But now that I know why, I say good. It is obvious people aren't respecting the imaginary world many of us try so hard to fully invest in, and we cannot be trusted with these tools.