-losexp

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Sockss
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Re: -losexp

Post by Sockss » Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:57 am

monkeywithstick wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:15 am
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=25250&p=201941#p201941

IG already spoke at length about how the monk balance issues came to be.

...

No rules system ever survives contact with a playerbase as large as Arelith has. 1000 players will invariably think of things that a handful of devs and DMs didn't.
Yes however the monk update wasn't discussed. It happened completely contrary to Art's post. As have many updates.

While I agree that nothing is going to be perfect on release, and things will be missed, there's a big difference between huge, required changes and small tweaks.

It's hard to believe that this process of thorough discussion happens when things are released that are just /so/ dreadful. I refuse to believe the alternative, which is that everyone on the team is incompetent (and I know that is not the case at all).

All mp games have rules and they work very well. Regardless of player numbers. However the usual reaction to those that break them is not to penalise legitimate users, but the rule breakers.
Thankfully this team is no longer being used.

Sockss#5567 for nwn mechanics questions.

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Re: -losexp

Post by Artenides » Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:03 pm

Dreams wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:57 am
Is this what happened with monk? (The Superman-power version, not the most recent change.)
I can not comment on what procedure was the team using before I joined. Currently changes are discussed as explained above.
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Re: -losexp

Post by Queen Titania » Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:22 pm

Artynides is right about how it is done, and it was done that way even before they joined. Having been on the DM side of the staff for far longer, so many things are discussed at length. The DM side of the staff far less often contributes to mechanical changes, given that is not our domain, but rulebreaks and player conduct are often discussed at length before something is acted upon, sometimes even during talking to.

Sockss view on how the implementation of monk and other updates was done without discussion thus is not correct.
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Re: -losexp

Post by Sockss » Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:24 pm

DM Titania wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:22 pm
Sockss view on how the implementation of monk and other updates was done without discussion is not correct.
I was literally on the balance team when many of these updates took place.
Thankfully this team is no longer being used.

Sockss#5567 for nwn mechanics questions.

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Re: -losexp

Post by Queen Titania » Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:30 pm

The balance team were never official staff members to my knowledge, thus my purview of things does not include an unofficial team.

Regardless, the last updates were definitely talked about from the staff, and feedback on it was reached out to those mechanically savvy.
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Re: -losexp

Post by Sockss » Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:37 pm

DM Titania wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:30 pm
The balance team were never official staff members to my knowledge, thus my purview of things does not include an unofficial team.

Regardless, the last updates were definitely talked about from the staff, and feedback on it was reached out to those mechanically savvy.
I'm sure if the team did thoroughly discuss monks concerns would have been raised. Again, I refuse to believe that the team isn't competent.

I'm also aware of updates that were pushed that irongron didn't even okay (or wasn't aware of), so again, it seems unlikely.

Regardless, it's good that it's getting better.
Thankfully this team is no longer being used.

Sockss#5567 for nwn mechanics questions.

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Re: -losexp

Post by Peppermint » Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:38 pm

Yeah. This is real. Arelith has been really weird lately. I know my tone has been more negative lately, but it's becoming increasingly difficult to contain my fatigue. My mindset about updates lately has shifted from excitement to vague concern. "What nonsense will they do next?"
monkeywithstick wrote:I also welcome that I will no longer have to endure the jarring "I used to fight dragons with you but now I'm trawling the Cordor sewers hunting rats because I wanted to change a feat in my build" as often. Everyone always had an RP excuse for it, but most of them came across as excuse rather than story and my immersion suffered.
This update does the opposite of what you think it does. Losing a handful of levels to fix a mistake is no longer as easy. Some players, whether that be because they're unable to contact a DM or because they're unable to convince them, will be forced to restart their characters from level 3. What would've been a minor, easily explained setback becomes a massive depowering of the character.
Szaren wrote:So last saturday I tried contacting the DM team regarding the possibility for a rebuild, since my character had spent 5 feats on katanas - planning to dip into monk at mid epics - only to see them removed as a monk weapon in the monk updates. As my character hadn’t yet reached his dip level, I wasn’t offered the complimentary rebuild - hence my request.

It took 5 days to get a response
This has also been my experience. The last time I needed to contact a DM, I waited over a week. And I only managed to get in touch because I messaged an admin directly on discord.

Must we also now wait to delevel a character below 16 if we wish to remake? I am not eager for the prospect.
Artenides wrote:I am sad to see you think this is how we work because in reality it is quite the opposite.
Players have mentioned monks, but let's be real: the spells update released two days ago was released in equally poor shape. There's no way that went through any serious feedback process.

Don't get me wrong. I love ActionReplay and am grateful that he's been so responsive in fixing this update. I'm sure it'll be fine within a week or two. But where would we be had a less responsive developer taken the reins?
DM Titania wrote:/Regardless, the last updates were definitely talked about from the staff, and feedback on it was reached out to those mechanically savvy.
Incorrect. I have quotes from contributors, 'balance' members, and even Irongron suggesting that some content wasn't ever even discussed or approved from the top. Do I have to post them, or can we at last drop this false narrative?
Last edited by Peppermint on Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: -losexp

Post by Irongron » Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:41 pm

Sockss wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:24 pm
DM Titania wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:22 pm
Sockss view on how the implementation of monk and other updates was done without discussion is not correct.
I was literally on the balance team when many of these updates took place.
Yes, you were. Thankfully this team is no longer being used. You are right that this updated wasn't fully vetted and discussed by our active coders, precisely because I relented to demands for a 'player council' to handle class updates. A system, that in this case clearly failed.

Yet monk was the last of many such class reworks that went through those channels, the overwhelming majority of which were very well received.

I find it extremely disheartening to see a developer who did so much to take on board player views, who was championed to me by the same people now decrying the poor design procedure which they themselves had pushed for, and who has made some of the most impressive updates to Arelith in recent years be repeatedly berated for one, less than optimal change.

I've said it before; with these attitude its a wonder we have any developers at all, and to see somone called out publicly, even to the extent of accusations that they sneaked in hidden features to benefit themselves, entirely convinces me that I made a mistake in going against the advice of many developers in allowing the 'Balance Team' such freedom and independence from supervision.

Nevertheless I've already taken responsibility for monk fixes not coming in sooner, and raising it yet again, is derailing the topic of the removal of losexp, something I have already said, earlier in this thread, that I can well understand the frustration of seeing it removed.

Perhaps one of our coders will take the time to attempt to close every possible exploit this was being used for, to limit the function so that truly is only used to rectify mistakes made during the level-up process. But I can say this; if anyone truly thinks that browbeating a volunteer into spending a a few days doing this is the best way to motivate them, be prepared for a very long wait.

For now, at least, -losexp will remain disabled.

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Re: -losexp

Post by Liareth » Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:45 pm

Tarkus the dog wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:23 am
1. Spent 4 months getting gear, about to complete it, and when I do I'll need to drop a few levels to readjust my skills. Am I suddenly not allowed to do this anymore, and need to go back to relying on other characters to enchant my stuff?
I consider this a pretty textbook example of abusing the chat command, personally, and an obvious exploit, given your knowledge of how the other systems on the server work.

It's entirely against the spirit of the system (and Arelith's policy regarding rebuilding in general) to hit 30, skill dump, enchant your gear, delevel to 1 exp from 30, then relevel without the crafting skills. Regardless of how you feel about dweomercrafting and relying on other characters for gear, that is clearly not how the system is designed to work.

With that said, I think losexp was a useful command. It would be better to script some protections for obvious crafting and language exploits than to remove it, IMO. But given the fact you opened your post with this, an obvious exploit, I can understand why the team may have felt they needed to take drastic, short-term action.

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Re: -losexp

Post by Irongron » Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:47 pm

Peppermint wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:38 pm
Players have mentioned monks, but let's be real: the spells update released two days ago was released in equally poor shape. There's no way that went through any serious feedback process.

Don't get me wrong. I love ActionReplay and am grateful that he's been so responsive in fixing this update. I'm sure it'll be fine within a week or two. But where would we be had a less responsive developer taken the reins?
I have absolute trust in Action Replay, and as the accompanying notes with this this update show, this was absolutely his choice to handle the spells (which I don't feel were in terribly poor shape) this way. He went before the players, asked for feedback, and said adjustments would be made, which they were, very swiftly.

I wouldn't call this an example of poor management, but an admirable community-based approach. If anything, it was an example to be followed.

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Re: -losexp

Post by Sockss » Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:58 pm

Irongron.

Everyone on that team was a volunteer. I don't understand your position of vilifying some and martyring another. Everyone on that team was trying to do their best for arelith.

There was in fact only one person on the team who was not doing that, who was doing things for himself (or his partner).

The team categorically didn't function because the developer in question didn't listen to feedback. The design procedure that you assume to have failed, never happened.

Nearly everything released was broken, not to the extreme of monks, but still necessitating nerfs which happened very late. Things that were flagged, things that were ignored. Things that are still broken.

I'm not saying anyone alone could have done better. The entire idea was to not produce things in isolation and to let others discuss and try to break them - mirroring what would be done in a live environment.

There was absolutely no reason for anything to have been released in such a poor state, nearly all the issues were raised and they were willfully ignored.
Thankfully this team is no longer being used.

Sockss#5567 for nwn mechanics questions.

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Re: -losexp

Post by The GrumpyCat » Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:01 pm

I want to preface this (decidedly grumpy) post by bringing up some positivity.

I do actually agree with those who say that this is rough on people making small mistakes. It is. And I can actually see an argument for bringing back some form of -loosexp with a limter on it. Whether that means it can only be done within the first 1000xp per level, or perhaps only one once per rl month, or maybe limited times on a character. I see that point.

And I also want to add that, personally, I won't be asking for months worth of epic rp from your character just because they took one point of persuade instead of hide last level, and now they can't take that PRC token, etc. I'll look at things on a case by case basis and where it does occur to me that you've made a small mistake, if you catch it early, I'll generally be happy to help out with a delevel. That's fine.

Note THE NEXT PART OF THIS IS VERY GRUMPY! BE WARNED!
With that Being Said.

I have been really dissapointed with some of the tone here.

With the argument that: 'Oh noes! my character may be rendered mechanically sub par after future updates!!!!'
Firstly – for updates that really deeply effect mechanics of a character (like the monk update) I'm sure re-levels or De-levels will be offered. They may even be automated.

Secondly: I cannot see any update that will literally mean your character is utterly and completely unplayable. They will not auto delete upon logging in. Your level 30 won't spontaneously die to goblins. The worst that happens is they won't be quite as amazing in PvP or PvE. For PvE? So what? For PvE, travel with others. And for PvP is that really that bad? Especially as often what matters in PvP is not the mechanics of winning or dying, but the rp around it.

Yes, you should rp death and such like, but rarely is simply 'killing' a character very impactfull, unless the other player allows it to be, and the key for that is often the rp that comes before and after. Ironically you can't even delevel the character who dies. So all you're complaining about mechanically is that you can't delevel, so that means you're less likely to be able to remove a small portion of xp from another character, who also won't ever delevel from the xp lost. That's... literally what you're arguing. And once more, I seriously doubt that there would be any huge change – given without opportunities for delevels or relevels, that would make your characters so utterly sub-par that they would literally be 100% useless PvP/PvE. Less useful? Maybe. But if your entire characterisation utterly revolves in being The Best in PvP/PvE then maybe look at an Arena server instead?

Thirdly and Finally: If it really matters to you why not make a new character?

'But I like my current character!'

'Well then remake your character? (contacting us for a delevel to below 16 before you delete, obviously.)

'But my stuff! My home!'

'Well then the change can't be too huge can it?'

The argument seems to be: 'I want my legacy character to have all the very best stuff on the server, and an awesome home and be mechanically AMAZING all the time and be able to do everything without anyone's help all the time FOREVER!'

Well... sorry but that's not an argument That's 'I want I want I want me me me me me!' That's not opening up spaces for new players to get neat homes. That's not opening up rp opportunities for other players to shine. That's not rping the chance of loss, or interesting story. That's a temper tantrum because the server won't cater to someones ego any more.

'This encourages us to roll our really old characters!!!!!'
.... Yeah. Yeah it does. Definatly. It is intentional for that and I think that's probably a good thing. It doesn't force it though. You're welcome to carry on playing them. You can still have them if you want. No one is preventing that. But it does encourage a turnover, which means the server is kept fresh, interesting and fun.

We will work to respond to any delevel requests promptly. And we will try and be forgiving wherein genuine mechanical mistakes have occurred. But this gives us more oversite, and I think that this may be a very good thing for the quality of the server over all.
This too shall pass.

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Re: -losexp

Post by Peppermint » Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:01 pm

Irongron wrote:this was absolutely his choice to handle the spells (which I don't feel were in terribly poor shape)
Image
What.

Moreover, the very development process you just described for this update stands in direct contradiction to what Artenides, Titania, and you just described as the usual process. That's not a council. That's one contributor.

Irongron, look. I created the original "balance team" as a contributor. That team existed as a personal feedback platform. However, upon noting that there was no internal mechanics discussion at the time (these were simpler times), I then offered to coordinate those members with other active developers.

The current* form of that team, however, exists for a different reason owing to tensions between contributors. It was created in order to separate members that did not feel comfortable working one another under the guise of "creating autonomous teams". (I have quotes to prove this too.)

(* It's still active. ActionReplay even retains the title for it on this forum.)

I'm not a member of that team now. However, I am in touch with players that are. The monk update was never approved in the form it was released in by that branch. This is not a "post-narrative" meant to salvage their reputation. This is stuff I heard literally day one of that update.

Pardon me for being rude, but I'm not sure whether you're simply uninformed about the structure of your own team, or if you're being dishonest on purpose. Either way: stop. Statements like these do nothing but erode player trust and make it fundamentally impossible to steer the server in a positive direction.

Incidentally:
Irongron wrote:Thankfully this team is no longer being used.
Holy crap.

The sheer gall of throwing volunteers that were simply trying to help, that poured countless hours into Arelith, under the bus this way. Nevermind that they had no genuine autonomy to begin with; the final say was always in the hands of their direct superior and the administration. I'm floored that any leader would ever, ever do this to members of their own team. Not a good look, dude.
Last edited by Peppermint on Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:03 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: -losexp

Post by Aren » Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:04 pm

Irongron wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:47 pm
Peppermint wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:38 pm
Players have mentioned monks, but let's be real: the spells update released two days ago was released in equally poor shape. There's no way that went through any serious feedback process.

Don't get me wrong. I love ActionReplay and am grateful that he's been so responsive in fixing this update. I'm sure it'll be fine within a week or two. But where would we be had a less responsive developer taken the reins?
I have absolute trust in Action Replay, and as the accompanying notes with this this update show, this was absolutely his choice to handle the spells (which I don't feel were in terribly poor shape) this way. He went before the players, asked for feedback, and said adjustments would be made, which they were, very swiftly.

I wouldn't call this an example of poor management, but an admirable community-based approach. If anything, it was an example to be followed.
I wholeheartedly agree that the speed at which the spell-changes and additions were fixed was incredible. Giant kudos to ActionReplay for that.

Irongron, would you perhaps - in your own time and if you are inclined to do so - compose a small post about where you see Arelith heading development-wise as a server. What your vision for the server is? I personally feel Arelith is (becoming) a somewhat different entity than when I started playing it three years ago.

(Maybe you already have, and I missed it - if this is the case, disregard the above.)

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Re: -losexp

Post by monkeywithstick » Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:28 pm

Philly wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:38 am
1. Spent 4 months getting gear, about to complete it, and when I do I'll need to drop a few levels to readjust my skills. Am I suddenly not allowed to do this anymore, and need to go back to relying on other characters to enchant my stuff?

As someone who built a character whose sole purpose was to be a craftsman/enchanter, this comment frustrates me to the point that it makes me consider continuing playing my character, or playing on this server at all. Do you not see how this completely ignores role play and is purely a mechanical exploit? Why are people's goals these days to get to 30 with the latest/greatest, and cram +1 uni onto each item? What game are we actually playing here?

I play Philburt Phrumplestone...I have 3 levels in enchantment, and esf craft weapon and esf craft armor. Before the enchantment change all walks of life would come to Brogendenstein to get help with enchanted wares. I spend hours writing item descriptions for enchanted wares I sell, or used to sell at least. It led to meeting awesome characters, engaging role play, and it really felt like my character was a tradesman, not a fighter. Ever since the enchantment change, this has changed with it. I hated the change, it was homogonezation...this 'everyone can do everything' mentality that is quite honestly, the death of role play. But I took it on the chin, kept all my feats(and let's face it, nobody has taken enchantment since the mechanical change) and figured out different ways to role play a hobbly old man who prefers to not spend his weekends on red dragon isle.

Let's use a scenario. You're in a public place, and you finish your last piece of gear. Congratulations. Some folk around you see you working the basin and ask the next day for some enchantment help. Everyone who's played an enchanter knows that the sound of enchantment success used to be like blood in the water to sharks. What do you say? "No sorry, the delicate and painstaking manipulation of arcane runes was just a fleeting hobby that I don't do anymore...nowadays I just don't fall down as much. Oh also I worship a totally different deity now. That other guy? Yikes...what was I thinking"

I honestly had no idea people were exploiting the game in this manner, but it certainly explains why the roleplay that was 90% of my game time with Phil for almost a year has diminished to only getting work when someone has an item runed in Dwarven. I also feel frustrated delving through Umbrick's Halls hoping to find some of the new scrolls, only to find some vendor selling ALL the new spells. "HOW DID HE FIND THEM ALL ALREADY?!".

I have an alt that I play very infrequently. Just two days ago I botched a feat choice at level 21 and rolled back my xp by like 100 to fix it. I do believe that was how this was intended to be used, and I would have been quite salty when I found it removed. But now that I know why, I say good. It is obvious people aren't respecting the imaginary world many of us try so hard to fully invest in, and we cannot be trusted with these tools.
I'd just like to say, that this post sums up a lot of the concerns I had when I seemingly kicked over an anthill yesterday by asking for DM clarification on someone's suggestion of delevelling to get all the new spells.
I had no idea this was as rampant as it seems, I had no idea someone could look at doing so and not immediately think it was an exploit.
Nobody wants to penalise people for misclicks on levelup (and Grumpy has clarified that some leniency on wrong feat/skill spend can be expected). But likewise I don't think we should be penalising people and characters who haven't been gaming the system with a status quo that removes a specialist roleplay niche.

Honestly I read this and was equal parts sad and furious. I do not think I can be alone in that.
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Re: -losexp

Post by Aren » Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:35 pm

DM GrumpyCat wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:01 pm
I want to preface this (decidedly grumpy) post by bringing up some positivity.

I do actually agree with those who say that this is rough on people making small mistakes. It is. And I can actually see an argument for bringing back some form of -loosexp with a limter on it. Whether that means it can only be done within the first 1000xp per level, or perhaps only one once per rl month, or maybe limited times on a character. I see that point.

And I also want to add that, personally, I won't be asking for months worth of epic rp from your character just because they took one point of persuade instead of hide last level, and now they can't take that PRC token, etc. I'll look at things on a case by case basis and where it does occur to me that you've made a small mistake, if you catch it early, I'll generally be happy to help out with a delevel. That's fine.

Note THE NEXT PART OF THIS IS VERY GRUMPY! BE WARNED!
With that Being Said.

I have been really dissapointed with some of the tone here.

With the argument that: 'Oh noes! my character may be rendered mechanically sub par after future updates!!!!'
Firstly – for updates that really deeply effect mechanics of a character (like the monk update) I'm sure re-levels or De-levels will be offered. They may even be automated.

Secondly: I cannot see any update that will literally mean your character is utterly and completely unplayable. They will not auto delete upon logging in. Your level 30 won't spontaneously die to goblins. The worst that happens is they won't be quite as amazing in PvP or PvE. For PvE? So what? For PvE, travel with others. And for PvP is that really that bad? Especially as often what matters in PvP is not the mechanics of winning or dying, but the rp around it.

Yes, you should rp death and such like, but rarely is simply 'killing' a character very impactfull, unless the other player allows it to be, and the key for that is often the rp that comes before and after. Ironically you can't even delevel the character who dies. So all you're complaining about mechanically is that you can't delevel, so that means you're less likely to be able to remove a small portion of xp from another character, who also won't ever delevel from the xp lost. That's... literally what you're arguing. And once more, I seriously doubt that there would be any huge change – given without opportunities for delevels or relevels, that would make your characters so utterly sub-par that they would literally be 100% useless PvP/PvE. Less useful? Maybe. But if your entire characterisation utterly revolves in being The Best in PvP/PvE then maybe look at an Arena server instead?

Thirdly and Finally: If it really matters to you why not make a new character?

'But I like my current character!'

'Well then remake your character? (contacting us for a delevel to below 16 before you delete, obviously.)

'But my stuff! My home!'

'Well then the change can't be too huge can it?'

The argument seems to be: 'I want my legacy character to have all the very best stuff on the server, and an awesome home and be mechanically AMAZING all the time and be able to do everything without anyone's help all the time FOREVER!'

Well... sorry but that's not an argument That's 'I want I want I want me me me me me!' That's not opening up spaces for new players to get neat homes. That's not opening up rp opportunities for other players to shine. That's not rping the chance of loss, or interesting story. That's a temper tantrum because the server won't cater to someones ego any more.

'This encourages us to roll our really old characters!!!!!'
.... Yeah. Yeah it does. Definatly. It is intentional for that and I think that's probably a good thing. It doesn't force it though. You're welcome to carry on playing them. You can still have them if you want. No one is preventing that. But it does encourage a turnover, which means the server is kept fresh, interesting and fun.

We will work to respond to any delevel requests promptly. And we will try and be forgiving wherein genuine mechanical mistakes have occurred. But this gives us more oversite, and I think that this may be a very good thing for the quality of the server over all.
How about time and effort invested, on top of the social aspects of playing the character?

I don’t know about you, but I’m a phd-student, parent and spouse. I hardly have time for enjoying myself with video games anymore. When I DO invest time in Arelith, you can be damn sure I’m making sure I get as much out of that time as I possibly can. Thus I plan out my character down to the last detail, before even creating it.
So forgive me as I find it a tad bit condescending to be told that PGCC exists for planning out a character down to the last detail and testing it in several environments, and then be told to just make a new character when updates peripherally makes my build moot, without any rebuild offered. And I don’t know about you, but I enjoy the feeling when a build comes together as much as I enjoy RP’ing my character.

Also: I dislike the strawman arguments that you are making, as they position us players that are expressing our concerns, as being of inherently malicious intent.

But yeah. Forgive me if I don’t go ahead and make another character, disregarding the countless hours I invested in my current one.

".. the other number that isn't 18." - Jack Oat
".. but- someone is still pumping the brakes sometimes, right? ...right?" - Batcountry


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Re: -losexp

Post by MissEvelyn » Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:38 pm

I personally love the change. It made no sense that characters would "forget" everything they had learned and all the powers they had gained every RL month or so.

This will also encourage people to actually make new characters rather than rebuild because they get bored or tired of their character.

There were also far too many exploits to pull off with -losexp. A wizard can easily scribe the scrolls she had just learned upon level up and then delevel 1 experience point to level up and learn other spells. That's just one sad example of how it was abused.

I welcome this change, and agree that it suits the RP server Arelith is.


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Re: -losexp

Post by Peppermint » Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:40 pm

That doesn't happen, MissEvelyn. I've described why that doesn't happen. Releveling to completely change your build is not viable. Players that do that remake from scratch, which they can still do.

Yes, this does solve some exploits. But how does it solve exploits better than a more elegant solution?

That's the question I keep asking and the one that no one seems to have an answer for.

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Re: -losexp

Post by monkeywithstick » Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:59 pm

Peppermint wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:40 pm
Yes, this does solve some exploits. But how does it solve exploits better than a more elegant solution?

That's the question I keep asking and the one that no one seems to have an answer for.
I thought IG answered that as follows:
Perhaps one of our coders will take the time to attempt to close every possible exploit this was being used for, to limit the function so that truly is only used to rectify mistakes made during the level-up process. But I can say this; if anyone truly thinks that browbeating a volunteer into spending a a few days doing this is the best way to motivate them, be prepared for a very long wait.
I mean, essentially, it doesn't. But it's quicker and there are limited dev resources to code a more elegant solution.
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Re: -losexp

Post by SkipiusEsq » Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:00 pm

Relatively speaking, I’m new to the server (about 8 months) but have found it to be the best both in terms of community and content of the persistent worlds out there; it’s why I look forward to the days I have available to play. I’ve also met a great group of people through this server with whom I can enjoy some fun RP, have some laughs, and just escape from the “real world” for a bit. So take what I say with the grain of “inexperienced” salt you deem appropriate.

First, having considered the reasons for the change and moving past my initial, knee-jerk reaction of “NO!” I can appreciate the need to remove this function. In all honesty, when I saw this was an option when I first started on the server I immediately considered all of the non-RP exploits. Admittedly, I did abuse the script on one mage where I just kept de-leveling once I could cast 9th level spells to get every spell in my spellbook. I later realized this took away the enjoyment of finding that one scroll I’d been searching for in loot or a store. I also agree that the example of using -losexp as a way to gear a character and then “forgetting” mastery in one skill for mastery in a different skill is an exploit and needed repairing.

I also appreciate that the DMs will most likely offer re-levels for the reasons people are wanting to use losexp correctly (including the “oops, wrong feat” reason). I also expect that there will be more leniency over the next week or two for de-leveling given the implementation of this recent change. If I trust the DMs to interact in a world that I play in, I have to similarly trust them to get the de-level decision “right.”

My biggest complaint about the change was the suddenness. I appreciate that there is much discussion before a change is implemented and there is extensive work by volunteers to script, test, and then implement those changes. There is then the invariable backlash, frequently getting too far from the issue and more into personal attacks (an unfortunate and honestly avoidable occurrence with mature individuals). But with all that lead time, advance notice of a change is preferable. Instead of jumping on the forums and checking the Announcements to find that “RIP -losexp”, I would have preferred “RIP -losexp in two days.” This time allows everyone a chance to “fix” your character before you can’t fix it anymore.

It would also be great to know what kind of changes are planned for the future. I don’t have lots of time to play – maybe 1-2 hours a couple days a week – so for me to level a character takes a good bit of time. Thus, I plan out my character carefully to make sure he not only will suit my RP direction but also mechanically is viable. On that point, there are some that decry “optimal” building. I get it and generally agree. However, I want to have a character that I can enjoy. It is not very enjoyable to have my character getting corpse-bashed any time I venture out to epic lands because I run into the optimal build and mine is the RP build. I can RP the experience and “try” to enjoy it, but ultimately I will get corpse-bashed, meaning I now has to lose some XP and then have to wait for death-sickness to end. For someone that only has a couple hours to play, that destroys my enjoyment. So there are certain things (I’m looking at you discipline) that seem to be “required” for any kind of viable RP character that otherwise would not be taken.

So some time to plan and prepare would be very appreciated. I will give you an example: I VERY MUCH want to play a dwarven defender. But I also understand that they are slated for some changes going forward. Given the limited time I have to play, I am not going to level one now and instead will just wait. But if I knew now the changes that were being considered or even planned, that would go a long way toward helping plan. And if those changes would not otherwise change my build, I could actually start playing him now and getting his RP developed.

I guess this very long post could have been easily summed up in a simple sentence: Please give us a head’s up first.

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Re: -losexp

Post by Peppermint » Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:08 pm

monkeywithstick wrote:I thought IG answered that as follows:
It's worth noting that Irongron doesn't code (or much understand that process). I don't mean that as a slight on him; it's just not his specialty.

I do code and used to code actively for this server. I know what systems exist on Arelith. The solutions described would not be more difficult to do or take more time. That entire argument is a nonstarter.

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Re: -losexp

Post by Zeskay » Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:14 pm

So let me get this straight. This whole debacle is because you introduced delicious new cookies (awesome spells), but provided no ways for some the excited people who were starving to get their hands on these cookies to actually get them, so they resorted to exploiting to acquire them, which is a terrible way to go about it, no doubt.

It's made worse by telling some of these starving people (Bards & Sorcerers) that they can get their hands on the mouthwatering baked goods by going through the bakery's back door before it's open to the public, but the rest of the starving population (Wizards) are lambasted for doing it. Bad Wizards can't help themselves and try to sneak into the bakery anyway by using this backdoor many people use for different reasons, and somehow the reasonable solution is to nuke the door so now nobody can use it. Guess it's one of those "this is why we can't have nice things" situations.

What I gather from this is that all of this mess (or most of it) could have been avoided if a method to distribute cookies (scrolls) had been made available the moment the cookies came out of the oven. Also, I'm hungry and I have no cookies :(

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Re: -losexp

Post by Queen Titania » Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:25 pm

This was for far more reasons than just this debacle. This debacle was not the start.
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Re: -losexp

Post by Amnesy » Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:31 pm

Well at least having -loselvl when you lose min 3 lvls.

One branch went bad and the option taken was to cut the whole tree?

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Re: -losexp

Post by Volograd » Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:07 pm

Zeskay wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:14 pm
So let me get this straight. This whole debacle is because you introduced delicious new cookies (awesome spells), but provided no ways for some the excited people who were starving to get their hands on these cookies to actually get them, so they resorted to exploiting to acquire them, which is a terrible way to go about it, no doubt.

It's made worse by telling some of these starving people (Bards & Sorcerers) that they can get their hands on the mouthwatering baked goods by going through the bakery's back door before it's open to the public, but the rest of the starving population (Wizards) are lambasted for doing it. Bad Wizards can't help themselves and try to sneak into the bakery anyway by using this backdoor many people use for different reasons, and somehow the reasonable solution is to nuke the door so now nobody can use it. Guess it's one of those "this is why we can't have nice things" situations.

What I gather from this is that all of this mess (or most of it) could have been avoided if a method to distribute cookies (scrolls) had been made available the moment the cookies came out of the oven. Also, I'm hungry and I have no cookies :(
Poor analogy. Sorcerers and Bards give up spells for other spells. Wizards could scribe and fill a spellbook. Please correct me if I’m wrong, but that is my understanding.

(EDIT: the following is not directed at anyone in particular)

Furthermore, a little patience and understanding goes a long way to things getting fixed. This bully method of harping on things only moments after implementation and announcement is ineffective at best and jerk behaviour at worst.

Make no mistake, the passion in some of these posts indicates a love for Arelith and it’s well-being, but it is bordering on disgraceful and has crossed that line a number of times.

This whole thing, all of Arelith, is a labour of love put together by a volunteer staff, players who agree to participate in good faith, all using a game engine that’s both incredible and frustrating at the same time.

We’re all in the same team here. Chill out and roll with the punches. Please.
Last edited by Volograd on Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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