Class skills

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Babylon System is the Vampire
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Re: Class skills

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:32 am

This may be a surprising statement given my last post, but I don't think players should be concerning themselves over how fast people level or what dips they take. While I don't think it rises to the level of a bunch of pvp focused vets telling players they need to min max or they are doing it wrong, its presumptuous at best. Its not against the rules as far as I know to solo grind, dip into classes with no real rp behind it, or get to level 30 in two weeks. If some or all of that changes I think it would be an overwhelmingly welcome shift in philosophy based on some of the pms I have gotten here and on discord since my post, but that's up to the dms and the devs to sort out. One of the best parts of Arelith is the "play how you want as long as you aren't hurting anyone else" philosophy, and too much criticism in either direction is counterintuitive to that.

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Re: Class skills

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Sun Sep 22, 2019 12:28 pm

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:32 am
This may be a surprising statement given my last post, but I don't think players should be concerning themselves over how fast people level or what dips they take. While I don't think it rises to the level of a bunch of pvp focused vets telling players they need to min max or they are doing it wrong, its presumptuous at best. Its not against the rules as far as I know to solo grind, dip into classes with no real rp behind it, or get to level 30 in two weeks. If some or all of that changes I think it would be an overwhelmingly welcome shift in philosophy based on some of the pms I have gotten here and on discord since my post, but that's up to the dms and the devs to sort out. One of the best parts of Arelith is the "play how you want as long as you aren't hurting anyone else" philosophy, and too much criticism in either direction is counterintuitive to that.
That is kind of where my mind settled a while ago.

Perhaps i should have opened discussion with is "is discipline/tumble a skill tax" and, or "what are ways people roleplay out their skilldump?" Instead of referencing a suggestion that straight up implied they were not role-playin.

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Zavandar
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Re: Class skills

Post by Zavandar » Sun Sep 22, 2019 5:05 pm

What if I told you that opening up all skills to every class won't limit powergamers at all and will just change what builds are op

Such a massive upset to server balance accomplishes nothing.
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Re: Class skills

Post by Aren » Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:42 pm

Zavandar wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 5:05 pm
What if I told you that opening up all skills to every class won't limit powergamers at all and will just change what builds are op

Such a massive upset to server balance accomplishes nothing.
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RogueUnicorn
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Re: Class skills

Post by RogueUnicorn » Sun Sep 22, 2019 8:58 pm

People who are focusing on my first suggestion to open all skills to all classes are missing the main point of my post. Perhaps you should read the whole thing. (Side Note: Yes, there would still be skill-monkeys if you did this, as you are still restricted on how many skill points you have to throw around. People take OOC class dips to be skill-monkeys regardless). People who are focusing on this suggestion seem to avoid my second suggestion, which was to limit OOC skill dumps. Skill dumps should be seen as an out of character exploit.

People who focus on the balancing issues are also missing the main point, and perhaps did not understand what I was talking about. Things can always be balanced. The issue are: penalizing players who don't want to RP being part bard as a wizard (for example), OOC skill dumps that make no sense in character, OOC class dips that make no sense in character, fostering an immersive-breaking society that focuses on diegetic character building, and having a system that encourages people to hold off on their character development or character concept until they are level 30ish and have all of the skills they wanted to have in order to roleplay their character concept to the fullest extent. For example; wanting to play a stealthy warrior type, but waiting until level 26 Fighter / 3 Rogue to dump points into Hide/MS and actually roleplaying being stealthy, something they haven't done their entire career. Such a player is encouraged to grind until level 30 as fast as they can and roleplay as little as possible until their concept can finally come to fruition.

WJLIII3
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Re: Class skills

Post by WJLIII3 » Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:21 pm

Lot of stuff in this thread, but worth noting, PnP 3.5, UMD is a cross-class skill for everyone. There are no "restricted" skills, within three years of the publishing of NWN in the first place.

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Zavandar
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Re: Class skills

Post by Zavandar » Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:39 pm

RogueUnicorn wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 8:58 pm
People who are focusing on my first suggestion to open all skills to all classes are missing the main point of my post. Perhaps you should read the whole thing. (Side Note: Yes, there would still be skill-monkeys if you did this, as you are still restricted on how many skill points you have to throw around. People take OOC class dips to be skill-monkeys regardless). People who are focusing on this suggestion seem to avoid my second suggestion, which was to limit OOC skill dumps. Skill dumps should be seen as an out of character exploit.

People who focus on the balancing issues are also missing the main point, and perhaps did not understand what I was talking about. Things can always be balanced. The issue are: penalizing players who don't want to RP being part bard as a wizard (for example), OOC skill dumps that make no sense in character, OOC class dips that make no sense in character, fostering an immersive-breaking society that focuses on diegetic character building, and having a system that encourages people to hold off on their character development or character concept until they are level 30ish and have all of the skills they wanted to have in order to roleplay their character concept to the fullest extent. For example; wanting to play a stealthy warrior type, but waiting until level 26 Fighter / 3 Rogue to dump points into Hide/MS and actually roleplaying being stealthy, something they haven't done their entire career. Such a player is encouraged to grind until level 30 as fast as they can and roleplay as little as possible until their concept can finally come to fruition.
i think you're imagining a problem and choosing to take offense to it
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Re: Class skills

Post by Ork » Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:43 pm

RogueUnicorn wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 8:58 pm
Perhaps you should read the whole thing.
We did.
RogueUnicorn wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 8:58 pm
Skill dumps should be seen as an out of character exploit.
That is not the stance of this server.

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Peppermint
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Re: Class skills

Post by Peppermint » Sun Sep 22, 2019 10:48 pm

Man, this thread confuses me so much.

If I'm playing a character that's going to skill dump, I'll often have my character try to learn that skill set through roleplay. This is really cool and awesome, since it leads to a lot of character development and interactions with other players. The very idea that you can't play a character as approaching a certain skillset from the beginning is patent nonsense. Any multiclass combination will give you capabilities that you didn't before. Heck, even pure classes do. When you ranger gains access to HiPS at level 16, do you consider this abhorrent to roleplay? When you finally acquire the Still Spell feat on your bard and are thus able to wear heavy armor, do you consider this abhorrent to roleplay too? Neither of these involve skill dumps; it's just the nature of the game.

Moreover, fretting over a character sheet entirely misses the point of roleplay. On a roleplay server, your focus should be meaningful character development, and fostering memorable realtionships and conflict with other characters. These are the qualities that will make you stand out from everyone else. These are the qualities that will yield a positive contribution to the server.

No one cares whether you have a generic multiclass on your character sheet, because we're here to roleplay, not play sims. We're here to create memorable stories and make cool stuff happen, not sit in a tavern while agonizing over whether our character with three bard levels seems spoony enough. If you'd rather focus on the latter, then might I suggest rolling a character on a social server instead? I really don't mean to sound rude; socially-oriented servers simply cater to that playstyle much better.

Sea Shanties
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Re: Class skills

Post by Sea Shanties » Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:11 pm

I suggest we should have a moratorium on saying "may I suggest another NWN server" to anyone who has an unpopular opinion.

I don't agree with the suggestions behind this thread either but we should be able to express feedback in the feedback section without being told to get lost. Not liking one thing (or a few things) about a server should not mean you have to go elsewhere. There aren't that many other NWN servers with a population worth discussing and all of them are going to have inevitable house rules or quirks some players won't like. That's okay and that's normal.

I would suggest to the OP that yes, things could be different. but they probably won't be on this matter (skilldumps are probably way too entrenched to open that can of worms even if someone in power was inclined to) so don't make it your hill to die on. Say your piece and if things don't change you can learn to live with it as long as you enjoy other aspects of the community.

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Peppermint
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Re: Class skills

Post by Peppermint » Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:42 pm

It really disappoints me when someone reads something I write and then proceeds to take the worst interpretation possible.

To be clear, I don't want the OP to "get lost". I don't know them; I feel ambivalent about them. I think more players are cool, so on balance, I'd probably rather they stay.

However, it also sounds like the OP is not looking for a traditional roleplay server. There's nothing wrong with their playstyle; it's perfectly fine. In the past, I've played games like that aplenty. But I wouldn't ever come to Arelith looking for that, and I feel it's disingenuous to suggest Arelith is the best fit given where their priorities seem to lie.

Let's not lead someone on with false pretenses. That does favors to no one.

ETA: Though on reread, my tone probably could've come across better. I am feeling especially grumpy today. Sorry, OP!
Last edited by Peppermint on Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Irongron
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Re: Class skills

Post by Irongron » Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:49 pm

RogueUnicorn wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 8:58 pm
...having a system that encourages people to hold off on their character development or character concept until they are level 30ish and have all of the skills they wanted to have in order to roleplay their character concept to the fullest extent. For example; wanting to play a stealthy warrior type, but waiting until level 26 Fighter / 3 Rogue to dump points into Hide/MS and actually roleplaying being stealthy, something they haven't done their entire career. Such a player is encouraged to grind until level 30 as fast as they can and roleplay as little as possible until their concept can finally come to fruition.
Putting aside the topic of skill dumping, I'm interested in point bring made here, because I think it's really well made. People do (or at least I have) dreamt up concepts that require that skill dump later; that won't be the character they have envisioned until sometimes high epic levels.

I can't answer the question of whether that is because I don't know how to create a successful concept (someone at the beginning of their journey rather than the height of their power), or because the classes of D&D are too rigid. I am reasonably confident though, that neither allowing universal class skills (it really is a significant supercharge to many classes, a few of which would likely entirely dominate), nor capping skill dumps would fix it.

Do I like the idea of more customizable classes to allow for more individual concepts? Definitely, but I would be far from qualified to tackle the huge amount of mechanical balance issues that would crop up in an open-ended system, and I wouldn't want it to go too far - the D&D classes as they are currently conceived, are an inspiration to fantasy roleplay every bit as much as the D&D races.

So, we can try to do more to allow more flexible concepts, within the class system, but won't be suddenly opening up all skills to everyone, it would have knock-on requirements that would have rebalancing the classes, items and spawns for the next 5 years or more (and likely making a number of wrong turns and backtracking as we go). Remember this isnt just about balancing the level 30 loadouts, but every step along the way.

Sea Shanties
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Re: Class skills

Post by Sea Shanties » Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:06 am

Peppermint wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:42 pm
It really disappoints me when someone reads something I write and then proceeds to take the worst interpretation possible.

To be clear, I don't want the OP to "get lost". I don't know them; I feel ambivalent about them. I think more players are cool, so on balance, I'd probably rather they stay.
"May I suggest another server" is such a common thing to say and it's almost always a "kiss off." I've had it said to me many times (including by you, a long while ago, to be honest which is one reason I reacted.) You may not mean it to be harsh but it usually comes across that way. It certainly doesn't read as "I hope you stay even if you aren't 100% on board."

I really don't think the person in question wants to go to another server either, if they didn't feel investment here they wouldn't care enough to write that. Not liking a few aspects of the mechanical game shouldn't mean you have to leave. There are pretty limited options out there after all for this kind of gaming.

Regardless, you say what you want, I just bristle when I see that phrase. It's too common and shouldn't be a thing one player says to another.

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Peppermint
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Re: Class skills

Post by Peppermint » Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:37 am

Yeah. My intent wasn't malicious. However, on reread, my tone was definitely out of line. I'm sick and I'm grumpy.

Again, apologies for that OP. You're cool and everyone is cool. Except for the jerks, but I don't think you're one of them.

Carry on!

Sea Shanties
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Re: Class skills

Post by Sea Shanties » Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:16 am

I am one of the jerks and sorry if I was unnecessarily grumpy too.

RogueUnicorn
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Re: Class skills

Post by RogueUnicorn » Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:43 am

Irongron wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:49 pm
Do I like the idea of more customizable classes to allow for more individual concepts? Definitely, but I would be far from qualified to tackle the huge amount of mechanical balance issues that would crop up in an open-ended system, and I wouldn't want it to go too far - the D&D classes as they are currently conceived, are an inspiration to fantasy roleplay every bit as much as the D&D races.

So, we can try to do more to allow more flexible concepts, within the class system, but won't be suddenly opening up all skills to everyone, it would have knock-on requirements that would have rebalancing the classes, items and spawns for the next 5 years or more (and likely making a number of wrong turns and backtracking as we go). Remember this isnt just about balancing the level 30 loadouts, but every step along the way.
I agree with you completely here, and I am glad you understand what I mean. I, too, think it's a complex and potentially time consuming project to tackle, but I think we should at least slowly attempt to make strides in that direction. Thanks for listening.

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Adam Antium
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Re: Class skills

Post by Adam Antium » Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:41 am

Ork wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:03 pm
malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:50 pm
Skill dumping is only a thing because how base nwn was scripted, im not saying we should take it away, but many players feel like they have to do rp gymnastics to "get into their character" with as is meta and calling them rigid thinkers will not change that.
Let's be clear here. The only ones that care about skill dumping are the people that don't utilize it. The "you're doing it wrong" mentality appears to be deeply entrenched in these individuals — hence, rigid brain. Roleplay is all about the back & forth, the push and pull. How people roleplay, including skill dumps, are under the full purview of that individual. Telling them they're not a pure roleplayer because of it is insulting.
I 100% agree, and removing the possibility of saving skillpoints between levels doesn't just stop 27/3 builds from skilldumping.

My build is a big multiclass build, with at least 10 levels in every class I take (I'm not getting more specific for meta purposes), but many of those levels are taken in sequence - 10 levels of one class, 8 of another, etc. etc., so if I want to save some skillpoints for when I return to another class (for instance, if I go 15 rogue, 7 WM, then 8 more rogue, even though that's probably not an advisable build), then I'm no longer able to. I have to spend all the skillpoints in my WM levels on things I might not even want, rather than save some of them for when I return to Rogue levels.

In every way, I think this is a bad suggestion.

I think the notion that we should try to teach (or ostracize?) really bad players who actually don't RP their character learning things, but instead just "oh I learned to be the best at footwork overnight" (discipline-dumping for wizards), is a good one. We should encourage people to become better roleplayers. We should not tolerate extremely atrocious RP - we should try to guide and teach, and if people don't want to learn, we should talk to DM's and bring up concerns. That's perfectly valid.

But shitting up the entire balance of the character building system is exactly the wrong way to go about this.

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Re: Class skills

Post by Rockstar1984 » Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:08 am

Might-N-Magic wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:20 am
Rockstar1984 wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:26 am
I think tumble and UMD should be left out of this, but absolutely discipline should be for every class. It was a skill made up by bioware in the first place
You're absolutely right. Enjoy trying to make your opposed strength and dexterity checks instead.

You apparently don't realize it, but you got off light. Every wizard and cleric would be eating dirt and fumbling their weapons because their dex and str SUCK. :lol:
Ork wrote:
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Go read trip in 3.5 as an action and tell me why you'd think that's a preferable alternative to our current system.
I would enjoy making my opposed STR and DEX checks. It's still broken, but at least a character knocked prone can do things. A prone character can attack with a penalty and cast spells. Being knocked prone is less debilitating than being knocked down. I don't see anything bad with how trip works, really. It might be hard for non dex/str characters to defend against (Clerics can actually have very high STR btw) but the consequence isn't as bad. A mage could just go "Ah screw it, I won't move and I'll just keep casting spells anyway." IMO Bioware just took a broken part of the game and fixed some problems while also creating other problems.

Going back to the main topic though. Sure, classes are supposed to have their skill lists for a reason, but what in the heck is the reason for bards getting discipline? If the reasoning is because bards have some training in how to fight, then rogues and clerics should have it too at the very least.

Oh the year was 1778...


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Adam Antium
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Re: Class skills

Post by Adam Antium » Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:30 am

So now the conversation is "take discipline away from bards, or give it to clerics/rogues?"

Eh, why? Just because you think it works thematically? Firstly, debatable. Secondly, the balance isn't that bad right now to warrant such a huge change. Are clerics really put off by not being able to go pure cleric and ignore KD at the same time? You're a full casting class with 3/4 BAB, D8 hitpoints, and can wear armor and shields with impunity, and have absurd amounts of buffing, healing, and support capability, only surpassed by Bard Song (not bards in general, but bard song specifically). I don't think clerics are hurting.

Rogues, I don't know much about, balance-wise. Are they actually hurting for free discipline? 27 rogue just isn't doable? 27 cleric isn't doable?

Bards are pretty strong and one of the most versatile classes, but it's almost entirely because of bard song, not because they get discipline. No bard-centric build doesn't already take another class that also gets discipline (splashing 3 bard isn't a "bard build"). Builds that splash 3 bard for discipline/umd would actually be hurt a ton more than rogues or clerics would be "helped" if bards lose discipline, because suddenly you can't splash 3 levels to get discipline and UMD, you have to go one or the other. With rogue getting discipline, literally everybody would just go rogue, and get UMD, discipline, *and* evasion. So you'd actually be buffing people who splash 3 levels for skill dumps. Sort of the antithesis of where this thread all started.


I think this is all just much ado about nothing, honestly. The concept of multiclassing for skills and overlapping abilities from other classes is fine, it's actually core to 3.0/3.5 D&D. Even just removing discipline from Bard or giving it to cleric and rogue, and nothing else, would still require massive balance adjustments and many, many builds would be either dead or have to rebuild, which is no longer an easy thing without -losexp either :)

I think class skills are pretty much fine the way they are.

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Re: Class skills

Post by ltlukoziuz » Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:39 am

While I generally sit in the camp of "This is unnecessary, multiclassing is good, and you should RP coming to said skills, even if you don't have them atm" and others have told that opinion much better, so I won't add to that, but I have to correct this tiny bit. Bard dip also gets you Spellcraft (+6 saves v Spells), not just Discipline/UMD, so if Rogue got Disc, it would still be a decision between Evasion and Spell Saves.


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Adam Antium
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Re: Class skills

Post by Adam Antium » Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:26 pm

True, and I forgot about that. I think choosing between discipline/spellcraft and evasion/more skillpoints/weapon finesse is a perfectly fine thing to have to choose.

Bards are by definition and practice "jacks of all trades." They're not amazing at anything normally, that's where creative multiclassing comes in, because they contribute to almost any build. It's the equivalent of your character getting a liberal education and travelling across a foreign continent for a year :P

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Re: Class skills

Post by Terenfel » Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:23 pm

perhaps the pathfinder approach, where cross-class skills dont cost extra, but class skills get a +3 bonus if you have ranks in it.. and you dont get more skill points at level 1, then any other level. and the skill points cap is character level. not character level +3.

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Adam Antium
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Re: Class skills

Post by Adam Antium » Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:10 pm

Again I have to ask "why?" because that just requires rebalancing of the entire server and all characters, and I don't understand what the real benefit would be.

Why is multiclassing, or splashing 3 levels of some class, or certain classes simply having certain desirable skills, bad? What is the thing we are trying to correct here, and why does it need correction?

Edit: I understand the original post in the original thread is talking about how multiclassing due to feeling mechanically "required" to, for the sake of making a decent build, is bad. But I simply don't agree. Classes are specific devotions to a set of skills/abilities/arts that don't allow you to learn literally everything you want. If you want to have a diverse set of abilities, you have to multiclass. Just like in real life. If you want to be interesting and have lots of interesting skills and/or knowledge in real life, you have to study and practice many different things, which takes time and energy. Again, players who are bad at RPing their character's development and just suddenly have a skilldump and understand the nature of magic, are just bad players, which you can't (and shouldn't want to) fix with mechanical rebalancing. Teach or reject bad players at your own discretion. Leave balance up to gameplay, though. We're playing a video game, after all.

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Re: Class skills

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Tue Sep 24, 2019 5:04 am

The problem is not skilldumping or otherwise.

The problem is the innate and unequivocal power of Discipline, Tumble, and UMD.

I think solutions should be geared towards making other "insignificant" skills suddenly very more significant. Players need choices.

I don't know if it's all possible, but what if Persuade just made someone think for a second that they might not want to 30 dump dip into Tumble?

Idk how, but just imagine. The problem of NWN always has been its concentration of power in 25% of its content. We should seek new distribution, not redistribution. The latter I think is just a bandaid solution.
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Re: Class skills

Post by Hunter548 » Tue Sep 24, 2019 5:26 am

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 5:04 am
The problem is not skilldumping or otherwise.

The problem is the innate and unequivocal power of Discipline, Tumble, and UMD.

I think solutions should be geared towards making other "insignificant" skills suddenly very more significant. Players need choices.

I don't know if it's all possible, but what if Persuade just made someone think for a second that they might not want to 30 dump dip into Tumble?

Idk how, but just imagine. The problem of NWN always has been its concentration of power in 25% of its content. We should seek new distribution, not redistribution. The latter I think is just a bandaid solution.
This isn't actually a solution.

Discipline (substitute your OP skill of choice here) doesn't suddenly become less important because lore/persuade/whatever becomes hyper strong. Discipline would still be super important, you just would be even stronger if you had enough skill points for discipline and [whatever skill], you get a sizable buff. Rogues, wizards, rangers, bards, etc all become stronger in comparison to other classes.

There's a limit to how much skill-starved classes can move skill points around. A skill has to be pretty brokenly powerful to make the risk of being knocked down (or giving up 6 ac, or whatever) worth it in trade off - broken enough that the classes that can afford both would be too strong.

Doing backflips or whatever the new skill lets you do is all well and good, but there comes a certain point when you're giving up basic functionality for it. WMs and similar builds are already pretty close to max'd out for skill points - between discipline, heal, tumble, some UMD, spellcraft and a detect skill, they already don't have room for much or anything else.



Also, for the record: UMD is not that strong anymore. Sure, it's always good to have to make capping your stats easier but with recent crafting additions (Potions of Deathward/Freedom, the spell breach shield) you can survive without it. The biggest thing you get from it nowadays is scrolls - specifically Word of Faith (To deal with summons) and Mordenkainen's Disjunction (to dispel/breach people). Timestop's a trick of yester-year; I've yet to see a melee character use it in a way that wasn't just lighting money on fire since the change to damage immunity a year+ ago.

It's still worth having, and going without is a lot more work for the same result (So whatever skill you're picking up had better be extremely valuable, and probably isn't), but you can survive without it.
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