Double Standards due to IG Race

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Re: Double Standards due to IG Race

Post by Echohawk » Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:05 pm

It's fine the way it is. Adapt your roleplay.
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Re: Double Standards due to IG Race

Post by Archnon » Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:14 pm

Blood on my Lips wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:35 pm
Archnon wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:54 pm
I see a ton of uncollared, non outcast humans roaming about. In fact, that is the bulk of the players I see.
How do you know if they are Outcasts or surface characters unless you actually observe them using the Hub portal? There's no other way to tell.
Because there are legitimate ways to be part of a surface settlement and still be considered a monster race and able to travel through Andunor without trouble thanks to some of the very strange politics of Arelith.

In other words, I can see their outcast status.

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Re: Double Standards due to IG Race

Post by Durvayas » Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:16 pm

Dr. B wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:55 pm
I've seen a lot of surface elves down there. This used to not be a thing. I confess that I find it a bit jarring, but I also think it's something that should be handled IC, and part of what's jarring about it is how non-reactive most of the players of elf-hating races seem to be to it. If you play a drow and don't like the idea of elves being down there, persecute them, and encourage others to do so. Maybe use it as an election platform.
The two elves that are currently actively in Andunor, and tolerated without collars, earned their position atop a mountain of elvish corpses. Together, they've killed more elves than a large portion of the active drow on the server combined, and one of them is very active in the war efforts against the surface. The other is more of a mercenary that has earned their place.

These two elves are tolerated because in terms of their actions, they have entirely switched sides, and are basically genocidal against the surface elf races. Their position in Andunor is well earned, and its taken them ages, in the case of one, literally RL years, to earn their outcast token, and its an ongoing fight for them to have respect from drow and orogs who are not familiar with their exploits. This is good. These elves should never be truly 'embraced', but they are accepted and tolerated. These elves are respected to a degree by drow for having earned their place, both in slaughtering elves, and also holding their own and killing drow who go after them, and both are protected by the powers that be due to their usefullness. Importantly, they are only tolerated by the drow of the city because they do not flaunt their status. They are not aggressive, they do not demand people bow. These two elves know their place, and are careful not to antagonize the drow needlessly, because they know that it would end very poorly if they did. The players of these two elves are skilled roleplayers who have well realized characters that take into account that a third of the city is populated by drow, and not just the PCs matter. And even they, as two of the three original "Accepted Elves", are concerned with the number of elves we've seen lately.

That said...
I do think we need to impliment a sort of reverse drizzt policy to keep their numbers from swelling further. grandfather the extant elves now, and regulate the future numbers, because being frank, if even half of the collared elves achieve freedom and try to stay in the UD, they'll outnumber the duergar PC population.
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Re: Double Standards due to IG Race

Post by Reallylongunneededplayername » Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:19 pm

Peppermint wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:02 pm
I'm also sick of seeing surfacers in the underdark.

If we could remove all the gnolls, goblins, and ogres from Andunor, that'd be great. Thanks.
I would though love to see them have a surface settlements with a portal link to Andunor like Bendir has with Brogendenstein.
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Re: Double Standards due to IG Race

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:24 pm

One interesting thing I'm seeing in this topic is a mixing of 'things that players controle' and 'things that DMs controle.' This is fine and well, but be awear that the things 'Players controle' are really up to you.

For example:
Outcasts cannot talk with the city registrars to see who is part of the government structure.
Outcasts cannot make purchases from NPCs, the city warehouses or player shops without 40 Bluff.
Outcasts can't own housing or shops in settlements.
Outcasts can't use Laurik's boats to move from one city to another.
Outcasts aren't permitted in the Arcane Tower.
And currently, most settlements are chasing Outcasts out on sight.
The first four points are more or less corect (Though 'housing and shops in settlments is more 'Housing and Shops in Civilised Areas on the surface.' - Sibiyad does count) but the latter part is very much player driven. Not to say that it's a good or bad thing, merely that it's a player thing.

Likewise the amount of elves in the UD is at least partly a player thing. Beyond occasionaly granting outcast tokens to those who have earned them, there's nothing officially done to support elves in the underdark (they're not elagabe for either the slave or outcast background). So again, it's mostly a player issue. (Though I suppose we could automatically dissalow all elf pcs even application to be outcasts, but this wouldn't seem terribly fair to me.)
I do think we need to impliment a sort of reverse drizzt policy to keep their numbers from swelling further. grandfather the extant elves now, and regulate the future numbers, because being frank, if even half of the collared elves achieve freedom and try to stay in the UD, they'll outnumber the duergar PC population.
To reiterate - right now the only way to BE an elf outcast, is to go through us, the DMs. So no talk of 'grandfathering' is needed. If we start getting dozens of elves applying to be outcasts? Then we'll get worried. Right now I think it's rare enough we don't need to worry too much.

Anything else is really down for you guys to deal with In Character.
I've stated before how jarringly weird I find it that Andunor is a huge racial hugbox where everyone is judged by the content of their character etc. I don't have any special complaints about anyone particular in the city. They're all sufficiently twirling their mustaches. But when you step back and look at the city as a whole its very hard to understand how the UD is the "evil" city on the server full of the "bad" guys. Sure, they all dress in black and you can see undead and fiends being ordered about the streets but there's no serious religious or ethnic persecution (even elves can earn their place). Trade is vibrant and largely peaceful. People tend to be polite and considerate of others and violence in the streets is rare compared to similarly populated areas on the surface.

Let me reiterate again, these are the supposed """bad guys""".

There's a lot of reasons for things being like this and I understand what they are and why they are, but it's still weird and I'm inclined to think there must be a better way to do this though I don't know what it is.
This is a really interesting point. The ultimate problem that come down to this (and I use the word 'problem' loosely. I don't know if it's bad, it's just a... thing) is that whilst people certainly want to be big evil meanies ICly, most want to be fairly decent OOCly, and it can be difficult balencing those two things. Mostly it veers towards being perhaps a bit too nice - and on the whole that's probably a better way for it to veer to. But it does create a difficult situation.

I don't have a real answer, except keep be thoughtful, keep communicaiton open, and be willing to play the looser sometimes. But it is tough.
This too shall pass.

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Re: Double Standards due to IG Race

Post by Reallylongunneededplayername » Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:45 pm

DM GrumpyCat wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:24 pm
I've stated before how jarringly weird I find it that Andunor is a huge racial hugbox where everyone is judged by the content of their character etc. I don't have any special complaints about anyone particular in the city. They're all sufficiently twirling their mustaches. But when you step back and look at the city as a whole its very hard to understand how the UD is the "evil" city on the server full of the "bad" guys. Sure, they all dress in black and you can see undead and fiends being ordered about the streets but there's no serious religious or ethnic persecution (even elves can earn their place). Trade is vibrant and largely peaceful. People tend to be polite and considerate of others and violence in the streets is rare compared to similarly populated areas on the surface.

Let me reiterate again, these are the supposed """bad guys""".

There's a lot of reasons for things being like this and I understand what they are and why they are, but it's still weird and I'm inclined to think there must be a better way to do this though I don't know what it is.
This is a really interesting point. The ultimate problem that come down to this (and I use the word 'problem' loosely. I don't know if it's bad, it's just a... thing) is that whilst people certainly want to be big evil meanies ICly, most want to be fairly decent OOCly, and it can be difficult balencing those two things. Mostly it veers towards being perhaps a bit too nice - and on the whole that's probably a better way for it to veer to. But it does create a difficult situation.

I don't have a real answer, except keep be thoughtful, keep communicaiton open, and be willing to play the looser sometimes. But it is tough.
That is because the UD has characters that could be the big villians of the surface and basicly are locked up in UD having no "Good folk to bother" down there, So they turn in the necromancer tea party club of "my undead are so awesome" and "Evil, Bla bla bla".

Also the UD player base is really nice and really think of the others.

Evil on the surface isn't blantant, But sneaky folk, Sceming, Having secrets. or PVP clubs.

The Surface player base is on average pretty nice, But there is a LOT of "my group" mentallity.
I found out that a lot of groups treat you different when you join them, When you neutral they often give a cold shoulder.

Just not Earth kin, They love everyone. (really weird observation, But people playing hin, Gnome or dwarf often are awesome players.)
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Re: Double Standards due to IG Race

Post by Subutai » Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:53 pm

DM GrumpyCat wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:24 pm
I've stated before how jarringly weird I find it that Andunor is a huge racial hugbox where everyone is judged by the content of their character etc. I don't have any special complaints about anyone particular in the city. They're all sufficiently twirling their mustaches. But when you step back and look at the city as a whole its very hard to understand how the UD is the "evil" city on the server full of the "bad" guys. Sure, they all dress in black and you can see undead and fiends being ordered about the streets but there's no serious religious or ethnic persecution (even elves can earn their place). Trade is vibrant and largely peaceful. People tend to be polite and considerate of others and violence in the streets is rare compared to similarly populated areas on the surface.

Let me reiterate again, these are the supposed """bad guys""".

There's a lot of reasons for things being like this and I understand what they are and why they are, but it's still weird and I'm inclined to think there must be a better way to do this though I don't know what it is.
This is a really interesting point. The ultimate problem that come down to this (and I use the word 'problem' loosely. I don't know if it's bad, it's just a... thing) is that whilst people certainly want to be big evil meanies ICly, most want to be fairly decent OOCly, and it can be difficult balencing those two things. Mostly it veers towards being perhaps a bit too nice - and on the whole that's probably a better way for it to veer to. But it does create a difficult situation.
I've actually had several good discussions on this with various UD players, and the conclusion that's often ultimately come to is that, unlike normal DnD where "evil" can be whatever the DM wants it to be, and doesn't need to work as an actual society, Andunor needs to be able to function day-to-day. If you look at evil Underdark cities in the lore, like Menzoberranzan, they're pretty much in constant states of warfare where anyone could kill anyone else at almost any moment, for almost any or even no reason. The city holds together less because it makes sense as a cohesive city, and more because the authors want it to.

While Andunor could maybe go a little more evil, it's confined by the fact that all the evil races and people need to live together, and have no real way to be segregated. Your drow can't murder all the goblins he sees because he's living among goblins on a daily basis. Your gnoll can't refuse to do business with outcast humans, because there are dozens of outcast humans around, and many are important in the city. The same is true of kobolds, ogres, gnolls, and everything else.

The realities of Andunor, both IC and mechanically, make it very difficult to have both a functioning society and be an evil city where everyone is constantly evil to each other.

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Re: Double Standards due to IG Race

Post by Sea Shanties » Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:11 pm

The UD may be more peaceful than you'd think but it's still extremely dangerous. Being outwardly polite and showing respect and all that means a lot in a place where reputation and connections are everything and a powerful enemy has free reign to do whatever they want to you. It may look like it's more tame than you'd expect but that's just the day-to-day of doing business. You maintain polite relationships until it's time to be cutthroat.

At the same time the surface may be ostensibly more "lawful" and "good" but it's also filled with judgmental and righteous people who demand you act a certain way and are itching for a fight if you don't. If you go against the grain at all up there, even in non-evil ways it is a very unwelcoming and sometimes violent place. It's generally safer and you may have more protections as an individual but that doesn't mean the societies are inherently friendlier or more fun to live in.

In short- in the UD you can let your freak flag fly but better watch your back. On the surface your back is a bit more protected but you'd better watch what you do and say. I think these things are working the way they have to in this little social experiment called Arelith.

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Re: Double Standards due to IG Race

Post by Reallylongunneededplayername » Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:18 pm

Andunor is as evil as Cordor but succesfully set in the baron-age of Cordor. and I place them both at neutral

Myon is the only evil city: 50: mechanics (Racial portal) 30: Elven lore (But elves aren't evil? Yes but they are snobby, Think they are better than the rest, Specially sun elves who are basicly the ubermensh of Forgotten realms without all the bad things. 15: history (Forest domination, Crypt protection) 5: players
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Re: Double Standards due to IG Race

Post by Might-N-Magic » Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:42 pm

Our underdark is mostly just humans and "humans in funny suit" syndrome at this point.

Might as well be called Cordor II. *sigh*

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Re: Double Standards due to IG Race

Post by Ork » Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:52 pm

Might-N-Magic wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:42 pm
Our underdark is mostly just humans and "humans in funny suit" syndrome at this point.

Might as well be called Cordor II. *sigh*
Insulting, unfair and out-right wrong.

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Re: Double Standards due to IG Race

Post by Nitro » Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:31 pm

Might-N-Magic has been on their "underdark for underdarkers" crusade for quite some time now, it's best to just tune it out at this point.

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Re: Double Standards due to IG Race

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:53 pm

Subutai wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:53 pm
DM GrumpyCat wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:24 pm
I've stated before how jarringly weird I find it that Andunor is a huge racial hugbox where everyone is judged by the content of their character etc. I don't have any special complaints about anyone particular in the city. They're all sufficiently twirling their mustaches. But when you step back and look at the city as a whole its very hard to understand how the UD is the "evil" city on the server full of the "bad" guys. Sure, they all dress in black and you can see undead and fiends being ordered about the streets but there's no serious religious or ethnic persecution (even elves can earn their place). Trade is vibrant and largely peaceful. People tend to be polite and considerate of others and violence in the streets is rare compared to similarly populated areas on the surface.

Let me reiterate again, these are the supposed """bad guys""".

There's a lot of reasons for things being like this and I understand what they are and why they are, but it's still weird and I'm inclined to think there must be a better way to do this though I don't know what it is.
This is a really interesting point. The ultimate problem that come down to this (and I use the word 'problem' loosely. I don't know if it's bad, it's just a... thing) is that whilst people certainly want to be big evil meanies ICly, most want to be fairly decent OOCly, and it can be difficult balencing those two things. Mostly it veers towards being perhaps a bit too nice - and on the whole that's probably a better way for it to veer to. But it does create a difficult situation.
I've actually had several good discussions on this with various UD players, and the conclusion that's often ultimately come to is that, unlike normal DnD where "evil" can be whatever the DM wants it to be, and doesn't need to work as an actual society, Andunor needs to be able to function day-to-day. If you look at evil Underdark cities in the lore, like Menzoberranzan, they're pretty much in constant states of warfare where anyone could kill anyone else at almost any moment, for almost any or even no reason. The city holds together less because it makes sense as a cohesive city, and more because the authors want it to.

While Andunor could maybe go a little more evil, it's confined by the fact that all the evil races and people need to live together, and have no real way to be segregated. Your drow can't murder all the goblins he sees because he's living among goblins on a daily basis. Your gnoll can't refuse to do business with outcast humans, because there are dozens of outcast humans around, and many are important in the city. The same is true of kobolds, ogres, gnolls, and everything else.

The realities of Andunor, both IC and mechanically, make it very difficult to have both a functioning society and be an evil city where everyone is constantly evil to each other.
Yeah, I think that's actually a very good way of putting it. Another thing to keep in mind though - and this is less a PC thing (though it is to an extent) and more a issue of build/DMing - is the Rating situation.

Before I continue, I want to add that I am 100% pro the PG13 rating. This isn't an argument for it's removal, merely pointing out a side effect that it's useful to have in mind.

In theory the underdark should be a terrible, awful place full of torture, mutilation, death, defilement and worse. One shouldn't be able to walk down the street without witnessing some horrific crime against sentience.

In actually we can't show these things, can barely hint at them, and/or, as the above poster pointed out, they just wouldn't be things that players would be comfortable with, or even able to, rp on a regular basis.

Now these things don't really need to be there. Most good rpers sort of just presume that it happens off screen, but it does lead to this wierd thing of people saying 'Andunor is nicer than Cordor' - In Character - when it really shouldn't be. And part of the reason it shouldn't be, is because the terrible things that go on there just cannot be shown on an ongoing basis. Either because it's beyond our ratings value to fit them into the module perminently, or, as Subutai said, it's not really a feasable thing to roleplay long term within that society.
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Re: Double Standards due to IG Race

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:02 am

Back on track:

Id like the minor award for outcast human to be considered.

I mean if the vision of the server is said current trajectory, then yes our RP should adapt. Ultimately this will be a DM vision thing.

So putting aside what Adundor should or should not be, why do we restrict things like hob goblins, but not human outcasts. Again, i dont care tjat there are lots of humans, I just find it uneqaul that a good aligned monster race is a major reward and human outcast isnt at least a minor. Arelith has not been a RP whatever you want server historically. You can't pretend your tiefling is actaully a half fiend or a halfling asa child (they may be insane and believe it though, but that causes other problems) the list goes on. Its why we created a reward system to allow exceptions. I feel an outsider human is a minor exception, not a major one and feels the mechanics should reflect that. If its not a minor exception, it be cool to have that clarified.

I heard the as is system greatly helped life of the server. But is it currently as is the best for the future of Adundor, and that is ultimately up to vision of those trying to establish the setting of arelith. If the team wants it to be purely organic with no specific strict setting vision then yes, we should all adapt and handle it IC.

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Re: Double Standards due to IG Race

Post by satan » Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:04 am

Agree, there should be ig mechanical consequences for both surfacers in UD, and monster races in surface cities..although the former is a much bigger problem atm.
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Re: Double Standards due to IG Race

Post by NauVaseline » Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:38 am

Ork wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:52 pm
I think it's wrong as a 'cast all blanket' for every character, but to say that this hasn't been 'creeping' into Andunor is also out-right wrong, and I have screenshots to prove it.

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Re: Double Standards due to IG Race

Post by Apokriphos » Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:34 pm

I believe the biggest reason some players are upset with the current status quo in the Underdark is that some feel it is unfair that only outcast players can detect other outcasts.

This means that outcast players can enter Cordor freely and interact with PCs there. They cannot interact with npcs without an appropriate bluff score, but it is the PCs that make the story. No Goblin, Ogre, Gnoll, or numerous other monstrous races could ever risk this due to instant death. After talking with many characters in the UD, I felt that it is this percieved unfairness that drives resentment of the numerous surfaces races in the UD by the monstrous races.

I think if there was a recognizable mark that any player with sufficient lore and spot could detect on an outsider, such as with pirates, that would alleviate the resentment monstrous races sometimes feel. The monstrous races could look at someone with appropriate spot and lore and say, this man belongs here. He's one of us.

This would act similar to how Gildorand requires no masks and no wards, removing any chance to for a trifling, drow, or other to come in under disguise.
Last edited by Apokriphos on Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Double Standards due to IG Race

Post by Nitro » Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:40 pm

Apokriphos wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:34 pm
I believe the biggest reason some players are upset with the current status quo in the Underdark is that some feel it is unfair that only outcast players can detect other outcasts.

This means that outcast players can enter Cordor freely and interact with PCs there. They cannot interact with npcs without an appropriate bluff score, but it is the PCs that make the story. No Goblin, Ogre, Gnoll, or numerous other monstrous races could ever risk this due to instant death. After talking with many characters in the UD, I felt that it is this percieved unfairness that drives resentment of the numerous surfaces races in the UD by the monstrous races.

I think if there was a recognizable mark that any player with sufficient lore and spot could detect on an outsider, such as with pirates, that would alleviate the resentment monstrous races sometimes feel. They could look at someone with appropriate spot and lore and say, this man belongs here. He's one of us.
You're misstaken. Any character that is a member of a surface settlement can spot outcasts.

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Re: Double Standards due to IG Race

Post by The1Kobra » Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:58 pm

Subutai wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:53 pm
While Andunor could maybe go a little more evil, it's confined by the fact that all the evil races and people need to live together, and have no real way to be segregated. Your drow can't murder all the goblins he sees because he's living among goblins on a daily basis. Your gnoll can't refuse to do business with outcast humans, because there are dozens of outcast humans around, and many are important in the city. The same is true of kobolds, ogres, gnolls, and everything else.

The realities of Andunor, both IC and mechanically, make it very difficult to have both a functioning society and be an evil city where everyone is constantly evil to each other.
I can mention that, in the past, there has been this kind of blatant warring in the streets. It's very easy to have a character that gets effectively thrown out of the city by constant threat of PvP. Since the place is so tightly knit together there aren't really a lot of good hiding places. This is especially true for low levels, who are often at severe disadvantages. And this can happen even without them directly antagonizing the city, sometimes they're just on the losing side of a conflict and then can't show their face around the city anymore when their side loses and breaks apart without being bashed 24/7.

And if this happens to humans? Well, they can go elsewhere. Monster race PCs, because of the monstrous race policy? They can't. They have nowhere else to go with the infrastructure Andunor has. It can get even more jarring if it's because of outcast humans (and other "surfacer" races included) kicking the monster race PCs out of the Underdark.

Now mind, this hasn't happened in a long while, and Andunor is definitely more tame than it once was. But it's something that could definitely happen and the architecture is set to allow it. It's supposed to be brutal in the Underdark, I get it, but it does seem a bit off that that can happen.

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Re: Double Standards due to IG Race

Post by Apokriphos » Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:22 am

Nitro wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:40 pm
You're misstaken. Any character that is a member of a surface settlement can spot outcasts.
Thank you for correcting me. My follow-up would be; Andunor citizens should also be able to spot outcasts with the right amount of lore and spot.

It makes no sense that of all the cities in the world. Only Andunor players can spot pirates but not outcasts.

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Re: Double Standards due to IG Race

Post by Hazard » Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:30 am

A Mystery Clock wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 4:56 pm
The Devil's table is literally ruled by an infernalist drow house. LE, and afaik not Lolthites.
They are in fact Llothites, despite being infernalist and LE. If you go inside there is an entire room dedicated to the teachings of Lloth, some dialogue options and the typical Llothite societal structure of the house.

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Re: Double Standards due to IG Race

Post by Memelord » Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:00 am

I've long held (unpopularly) that Andunor is largely detrimental to the health of the server, or more accurately: that the combination of the ability to play monster races coupled up with the fact that 85% of Evil surface PC's inevitably end up either down in Andunor or working in close collaboration with Andunor is detrimental to the health of the server. Monster PCs don't make for compelling villains on a server where every character starts off hunting bandits, goblins and orcs and continues to butcher their way through zones full of NPC gnolls, quaggoths, orcs and duergar as they level up. When faced with a monster PC villain, you don't need to have a compelling reason to oppose them - they're a drow/duergar/literal personeating monster, half of the gods you worship directly demand their eradication (or, on the flip side for Outcasts, they're directly in cahoots with literal monsters, which is alone enough reason to stand against them.) There's no room, nor any need, for any meaningful dialogue or discourse or philosophical disagreement - the conflicts end up boiling down to "you're a literal monster, I'm going to oppose you because that's what adventurers do" with varying degrees of window dressing. There's no room for any real nuance or purpose to the conflict beyond that.

This is compounded by the tendency for evil PCs on the surface to end up being moustache-twirling individuals who are willing to sell your babies into literal chattel slavery (which is the only form of slavery on the server at present, and is a uniquely horrible institution that also only rarely ever produces meaningful interaction - it's usually largely seen as a headache to get involved in, for both slave owners and slave pcs) and thus inevitably end up either forced into living in Andunor - or into fleeing to Sencliff to commonly become Andunor's errand boys. Red Rope's Church of Bane has been a delightful turn from this trend, but that's because Red Ropes usually turns whatever his current project is into gold and has a tendency to draw excellent players towards him - it's the exception, rather than the rule.

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Re: Double Standards due to IG Race

Post by Xarge VI » Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:27 am

It's only natural that outcasts use the very resource at their disposal to ensure their position in Andunor's hierarchy. Given they live among monsters who would literally eat them or enslave them if they could get away with it. Most of the outcasts are also opportunists which gives them an advantage over monsters who refuse to work with humans etc.

I don't think this is an OOC problem at all and I would love to see a dedicated xenophobic faction rise in Andunor. As long as they can operate in a more cunning manner than mass human PvP.

The city thrives in internal conflict as long as it's purely IC motivated.

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Re: Double Standards due to IG Race

Post by Ork » Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:09 pm

Memelord wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:00 am
This is compounded by the tendency for evil PCs on the surface to end up being moustache-twirling individuals who are willing to sell your babies into literal chattel slavery (which is the only form of slavery on the server at present, and is a uniquely horrible institution that also only rarely ever produces meaningful interaction - it's usually largely seen as a headache to get involved in, for both slave owners and slave pcs) and thus inevitably end up either forced into living in Andunor - or into fleeing to Sencliff to commonly become Andunor's errand boys.
I think I want to address this. Open evil on the surface is outright persecuted - good. If you want a culprit to blame for why all evil seems to migrate down towards Andunor, you need to examine the culture of the surface. I've played a few villains in my time, and started playing one recently. While I aim to make a compelling villain, a lot of players aren't interested in that sort of conflict and immediately go to that nuclear option: PvP or get out. While PvP can be great for a story, the stonewalling a lot of surface players perform towards evil characters makes you wonder why we have a culture so driven towards levels, mechanical strength, etc. They can't even tell a story unless they've the mechanic prowess to back it up.

It's a shame really. I think we, as a community, have reaped what we sow & compelling villains are forced to be mechanically competent, or supported by a large faction (probably also mechanically competent) to survive on the surface.

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Re: Double Standards due to IG Race

Post by Sea Shanties » Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:26 pm

Memelord wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:00 am
. Monster PCs don't make for compelling villains on a server where every character starts off hunting bandits, goblins and orcs and continues to butcher their way through zones full of NPC gnolls, quaggoths, orcs and duergar as they level up. When faced with a monster PC villain, you don't need to have a compelling reason to oppose them - they're a drow/duergar/literal personeating monster, half of the gods you worship directly demand their eradication (or, on the flip side for Outcasts, they're directly in cahoots with literal monsters, which is alone enough reason to stand against them.)
This is only the case if you consider humans in Cordor to be the center of the universe and everyone else to be a side character. Playing a "monster" to some of us is the fun and challenge of filling in the cultural details and personalities of something alien. If I'm playing a drow or duergar I could honestly care less about being a bogeyman to surfacers- it's all about what makes these different beings tick.

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