Re: Double Standards due to IG Race
Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:05 pm
It's fine the way it is. Adapt your roleplay.
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Because there are legitimate ways to be part of a surface settlement and still be considered a monster race and able to travel through Andunor without trouble thanks to some of the very strange politics of Arelith.Blood on my Lips wrote: ↑Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:35 pmHow do you know if they are Outcasts or surface characters unless you actually observe them using the Hub portal? There's no other way to tell.
The two elves that are currently actively in Andunor, and tolerated without collars, earned their position atop a mountain of elvish corpses. Together, they've killed more elves than a large portion of the active drow on the server combined, and one of them is very active in the war efforts against the surface. The other is more of a mercenary that has earned their place.Dr. B wrote: ↑Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:55 pmI've seen a lot of surface elves down there. This used to not be a thing. I confess that I find it a bit jarring, but I also think it's something that should be handled IC, and part of what's jarring about it is how non-reactive most of the players of elf-hating races seem to be to it. If you play a drow and don't like the idea of elves being down there, persecute them, and encourage others to do so. Maybe use it as an election platform.
I would though love to see them have a surface settlements with a portal link to Andunor like Bendir has with Brogendenstein.Peppermint wrote: ↑Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:02 pmI'm also sick of seeing surfacers in the underdark.
If we could remove all the gnolls, goblins, and ogres from Andunor, that'd be great. Thanks.
The first four points are more or less corect (Though 'housing and shops in settlments is more 'Housing and Shops in Civilised Areas on the surface.' - Sibiyad does count) but the latter part is very much player driven. Not to say that it's a good or bad thing, merely that it's a player thing.Outcasts cannot talk with the city registrars to see who is part of the government structure.
Outcasts cannot make purchases from NPCs, the city warehouses or player shops without 40 Bluff.
Outcasts can't own housing or shops in settlements.
Outcasts can't use Laurik's boats to move from one city to another.
Outcasts aren't permitted in the Arcane Tower.
And currently, most settlements are chasing Outcasts out on sight.
To reiterate - right now the only way to BE an elf outcast, is to go through us, the DMs. So no talk of 'grandfathering' is needed. If we start getting dozens of elves applying to be outcasts? Then we'll get worried. Right now I think it's rare enough we don't need to worry too much.I do think we need to impliment a sort of reverse drizzt policy to keep their numbers from swelling further. grandfather the extant elves now, and regulate the future numbers, because being frank, if even half of the collared elves achieve freedom and try to stay in the UD, they'll outnumber the duergar PC population.
This is a really interesting point. The ultimate problem that come down to this (and I use the word 'problem' loosely. I don't know if it's bad, it's just a... thing) is that whilst people certainly want to be big evil meanies ICly, most want to be fairly decent OOCly, and it can be difficult balencing those two things. Mostly it veers towards being perhaps a bit too nice - and on the whole that's probably a better way for it to veer to. But it does create a difficult situation.I've stated before how jarringly weird I find it that Andunor is a huge racial hugbox where everyone is judged by the content of their character etc. I don't have any special complaints about anyone particular in the city. They're all sufficiently twirling their mustaches. But when you step back and look at the city as a whole its very hard to understand how the UD is the "evil" city on the server full of the "bad" guys. Sure, they all dress in black and you can see undead and fiends being ordered about the streets but there's no serious religious or ethnic persecution (even elves can earn their place). Trade is vibrant and largely peaceful. People tend to be polite and considerate of others and violence in the streets is rare compared to similarly populated areas on the surface.
Let me reiterate again, these are the supposed """bad guys""".
There's a lot of reasons for things being like this and I understand what they are and why they are, but it's still weird and I'm inclined to think there must be a better way to do this though I don't know what it is.
That is because the UD has characters that could be the big villians of the surface and basicly are locked up in UD having no "Good folk to bother" down there, So they turn in the necromancer tea party club of "my undead are so awesome" and "Evil, Bla bla bla".DM GrumpyCat wrote: ↑Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:24 pmThis is a really interesting point. The ultimate problem that come down to this (and I use the word 'problem' loosely. I don't know if it's bad, it's just a... thing) is that whilst people certainly want to be big evil meanies ICly, most want to be fairly decent OOCly, and it can be difficult balencing those two things. Mostly it veers towards being perhaps a bit too nice - and on the whole that's probably a better way for it to veer to. But it does create a difficult situation.I've stated before how jarringly weird I find it that Andunor is a huge racial hugbox where everyone is judged by the content of their character etc. I don't have any special complaints about anyone particular in the city. They're all sufficiently twirling their mustaches. But when you step back and look at the city as a whole its very hard to understand how the UD is the "evil" city on the server full of the "bad" guys. Sure, they all dress in black and you can see undead and fiends being ordered about the streets but there's no serious religious or ethnic persecution (even elves can earn their place). Trade is vibrant and largely peaceful. People tend to be polite and considerate of others and violence in the streets is rare compared to similarly populated areas on the surface.
Let me reiterate again, these are the supposed """bad guys""".
There's a lot of reasons for things being like this and I understand what they are and why they are, but it's still weird and I'm inclined to think there must be a better way to do this though I don't know what it is.
I don't have a real answer, except keep be thoughtful, keep communicaiton open, and be willing to play the looser sometimes. But it is tough.
I've actually had several good discussions on this with various UD players, and the conclusion that's often ultimately come to is that, unlike normal DnD where "evil" can be whatever the DM wants it to be, and doesn't need to work as an actual society, Andunor needs to be able to function day-to-day. If you look at evil Underdark cities in the lore, like Menzoberranzan, they're pretty much in constant states of warfare where anyone could kill anyone else at almost any moment, for almost any or even no reason. The city holds together less because it makes sense as a cohesive city, and more because the authors want it to.DM GrumpyCat wrote: ↑Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:24 pmThis is a really interesting point. The ultimate problem that come down to this (and I use the word 'problem' loosely. I don't know if it's bad, it's just a... thing) is that whilst people certainly want to be big evil meanies ICly, most want to be fairly decent OOCly, and it can be difficult balencing those two things. Mostly it veers towards being perhaps a bit too nice - and on the whole that's probably a better way for it to veer to. But it does create a difficult situation.I've stated before how jarringly weird I find it that Andunor is a huge racial hugbox where everyone is judged by the content of their character etc. I don't have any special complaints about anyone particular in the city. They're all sufficiently twirling their mustaches. But when you step back and look at the city as a whole its very hard to understand how the UD is the "evil" city on the server full of the "bad" guys. Sure, they all dress in black and you can see undead and fiends being ordered about the streets but there's no serious religious or ethnic persecution (even elves can earn their place). Trade is vibrant and largely peaceful. People tend to be polite and considerate of others and violence in the streets is rare compared to similarly populated areas on the surface.
Let me reiterate again, these are the supposed """bad guys""".
There's a lot of reasons for things being like this and I understand what they are and why they are, but it's still weird and I'm inclined to think there must be a better way to do this though I don't know what it is.
Insulting, unfair and out-right wrong.Might-N-Magic wrote: ↑Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:42 pmOur underdark is mostly just humans and "humans in funny suit" syndrome at this point.
Might as well be called Cordor II. *sigh*
Yeah, I think that's actually a very good way of putting it. Another thing to keep in mind though - and this is less a PC thing (though it is to an extent) and more a issue of build/DMing - is the Rating situation.Subutai wrote: ↑Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:53 pmI've actually had several good discussions on this with various UD players, and the conclusion that's often ultimately come to is that, unlike normal DnD where "evil" can be whatever the DM wants it to be, and doesn't need to work as an actual society, Andunor needs to be able to function day-to-day. If you look at evil Underdark cities in the lore, like Menzoberranzan, they're pretty much in constant states of warfare where anyone could kill anyone else at almost any moment, for almost any or even no reason. The city holds together less because it makes sense as a cohesive city, and more because the authors want it to.DM GrumpyCat wrote: ↑Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:24 pmThis is a really interesting point. The ultimate problem that come down to this (and I use the word 'problem' loosely. I don't know if it's bad, it's just a... thing) is that whilst people certainly want to be big evil meanies ICly, most want to be fairly decent OOCly, and it can be difficult balencing those two things. Mostly it veers towards being perhaps a bit too nice - and on the whole that's probably a better way for it to veer to. But it does create a difficult situation.I've stated before how jarringly weird I find it that Andunor is a huge racial hugbox where everyone is judged by the content of their character etc. I don't have any special complaints about anyone particular in the city. They're all sufficiently twirling their mustaches. But when you step back and look at the city as a whole its very hard to understand how the UD is the "evil" city on the server full of the "bad" guys. Sure, they all dress in black and you can see undead and fiends being ordered about the streets but there's no serious religious or ethnic persecution (even elves can earn their place). Trade is vibrant and largely peaceful. People tend to be polite and considerate of others and violence in the streets is rare compared to similarly populated areas on the surface.
Let me reiterate again, these are the supposed """bad guys""".
There's a lot of reasons for things being like this and I understand what they are and why they are, but it's still weird and I'm inclined to think there must be a better way to do this though I don't know what it is.
While Andunor could maybe go a little more evil, it's confined by the fact that all the evil races and people need to live together, and have no real way to be segregated. Your drow can't murder all the goblins he sees because he's living among goblins on a daily basis. Your gnoll can't refuse to do business with outcast humans, because there are dozens of outcast humans around, and many are important in the city. The same is true of kobolds, ogres, gnolls, and everything else.
The realities of Andunor, both IC and mechanically, make it very difficult to have both a functioning society and be an evil city where everyone is constantly evil to each other.
You're misstaken. Any character that is a member of a surface settlement can spot outcasts.Apokriphos wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:34 pmI believe the biggest reason some players are upset with the current status quo in the Underdark is that some feel it is unfair that only outcast players can detect other outcasts.
This means that outcast players can enter Cordor freely and interact with PCs there. They cannot interact with npcs without an appropriate bluff score, but it is the PCs that make the story. No Goblin, Ogre, Gnoll, or numerous other monstrous races could ever risk this due to instant death. After talking with many characters in the UD, I felt that it is this percieved unfairness that drives resentment of the numerous surfaces races in the UD by the monstrous races.
I think if there was a recognizable mark that any player with sufficient lore and spot could detect on an outsider, such as with pirates, that would alleviate the resentment monstrous races sometimes feel. They could look at someone with appropriate spot and lore and say, this man belongs here. He's one of us.
I can mention that, in the past, there has been this kind of blatant warring in the streets. It's very easy to have a character that gets effectively thrown out of the city by constant threat of PvP. Since the place is so tightly knit together there aren't really a lot of good hiding places. This is especially true for low levels, who are often at severe disadvantages. And this can happen even without them directly antagonizing the city, sometimes they're just on the losing side of a conflict and then can't show their face around the city anymore when their side loses and breaks apart without being bashed 24/7.Subutai wrote: ↑Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:53 pmWhile Andunor could maybe go a little more evil, it's confined by the fact that all the evil races and people need to live together, and have no real way to be segregated. Your drow can't murder all the goblins he sees because he's living among goblins on a daily basis. Your gnoll can't refuse to do business with outcast humans, because there are dozens of outcast humans around, and many are important in the city. The same is true of kobolds, ogres, gnolls, and everything else.
The realities of Andunor, both IC and mechanically, make it very difficult to have both a functioning society and be an evil city where everyone is constantly evil to each other.
Thank you for correcting me. My follow-up would be; Andunor citizens should also be able to spot outcasts with the right amount of lore and spot.
They are in fact Llothites, despite being infernalist and LE. If you go inside there is an entire room dedicated to the teachings of Lloth, some dialogue options and the typical Llothite societal structure of the house.A Mystery Clock wrote: ↑Sun Oct 13, 2019 4:56 pmThe Devil's table is literally ruled by an infernalist drow house. LE, and afaik not Lolthites.
I think I want to address this. Open evil on the surface is outright persecuted - good. If you want a culprit to blame for why all evil seems to migrate down towards Andunor, you need to examine the culture of the surface. I've played a few villains in my time, and started playing one recently. While I aim to make a compelling villain, a lot of players aren't interested in that sort of conflict and immediately go to that nuclear option: PvP or get out. While PvP can be great for a story, the stonewalling a lot of surface players perform towards evil characters makes you wonder why we have a culture so driven towards levels, mechanical strength, etc. They can't even tell a story unless they've the mechanic prowess to back it up.Memelord wrote: ↑Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:00 amThis is compounded by the tendency for evil PCs on the surface to end up being moustache-twirling individuals who are willing to sell your babies into literal chattel slavery (which is the only form of slavery on the server at present, and is a uniquely horrible institution that also only rarely ever produces meaningful interaction - it's usually largely seen as a headache to get involved in, for both slave owners and slave pcs) and thus inevitably end up either forced into living in Andunor - or into fleeing to Sencliff to commonly become Andunor's errand boys.
This is only the case if you consider humans in Cordor to be the center of the universe and everyone else to be a side character. Playing a "monster" to some of us is the fun and challenge of filling in the cultural details and personalities of something alien. If I'm playing a drow or duergar I could honestly care less about being a bogeyman to surfacers- it's all about what makes these different beings tick.Memelord wrote: ↑Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:00 am. Monster PCs don't make for compelling villains on a server where every character starts off hunting bandits, goblins and orcs and continues to butcher their way through zones full of NPC gnolls, quaggoths, orcs and duergar as they level up. When faced with a monster PC villain, you don't need to have a compelling reason to oppose them - they're a drow/duergar/literal personeating monster, half of the gods you worship directly demand their eradication (or, on the flip side for Outcasts, they're directly in cahoots with literal monsters, which is alone enough reason to stand against them.)