The Big UMD Change Thread

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Way off topic by now but....


I think the idea that pvp is great for conflict resolution was debunked nicely by Monkey with a Stick's post. The way PvP death is handled on Arelith makes it relatively meaningless. So to equate someone good at pvp to being a good roleplayer because they generate conflict has to be a universally false statement. There are far better ways to create consequences for your enemy that revolve around roleplay that don't require pvp knowledge at all, once again laid out nicely by monkeywithstick. That's not saying that people good at pvp are bad roleplayers, I know that to be false first hand from my three years here. Its just not that important unless you make it important to you.

If you don't believe me, ask Xerah how many times they got into pvp over the last few months. I don't know the answer so I am a bit out on a limb here since its possible they were pvping every day like a boss, but I suspect that it rarely if ever happened. And we are talking about a character that has been hailed by the dms as one of the best in areliths history.

[Cagus]

As it happens, both have been nerfed by this recent change - Just to a lesser degree than some others, although my comment was primarily directed at pre-change balance.
...

As a continuation of this dialog would deviate more from the main topic of this thread, if you are interested, send me the PM where I can give you a different insight into things mentioned and correct (especially about the rogue) some estimations with arguments.

As for the rest of the plentiful text, I am still failing to see the arguments, why high-level bard, rogue and assassin builds should not be able to reach an ability to manipulate scrolls easier then other meleé build as high-level fighters, rangers, barbarians, paladins and similar. As I expect that to be the point of your post. If not, correct me.



P.S.: I only mentioned the name of my char because I obviously mistook you (cos name) for another player from the pirate group before it was canceled.

[Aodh Lazuli]

As for the rest of the plentiful text, I am still failing to see the arguments, why high-level bard, rogue and assassin builds should not be able to reach an ability to manipulate scrolls easier then other meleé build as high-level fighters, rangers, barbarians, paladins and similar. As I expect that to be the point of your post. If not, correct me.

You are largely incorrect in your assumption as to the point I was making.

Allow me to bullet-point it, for ease of understanding:

- Rogues and bards were (pre change) extremely potent melee builds, assuming they were played by someone who understood their strengths and played to them.

- The impact of the change to lore for scroll use has negatively impacted (nearly**) all melee characters, high level bards and rogues included.

- After the change, majority rogues and bards have been disadvantaged very slightly less than other melee builds due to certain mitigating factors contained within their toolkit, however I sought to illustrate this impact is still severe.

- All characters that do not have native access to Word of Faith and Mords in particular have been placed at the mercy of random number generation, or at a severe skillpoint deficit. This is something that should be rectified for all melee characters, not just for rogues and bards.

Further to that, given leaving things implicit is a poor idea here:

- Rectifying imbalance for two classes and not others, is as worthless as rectifying it for nobody - As the game remains glaringly imbalanced.

[Aodh Lazuli]

So to equate someone good at pvp to being a good roleplayer because they generate conflict has to be a universally false statement.

Nobody said this. Literally nobody said this. You have invented that statement.

The only statement anyone could construe as even being vaguely related to this in any way shape or form, is summarised as follows:

Many excellent roleplayers also happen to be very mechanically savvy.

Something which hs been stated in this thread because some people have seen fit to dismiss anyone who gives a damn about pvp balance/mechanical awareness, to be a bad roleplayer and a powergamer.

As for people saying "oh game balance and pvp balance doesn't matter because there are better methods of resolving and creating conflict... Those other methods are, by mere fact of existing beyond mechanical consideration, balanced. However, mechanical conflict and pvp is something contained within the game, and it can and does comprise one of many tools by which roleplay can be furthered... We should, therefore, always seek for it to be balanced and fair. If it is left unbalanced, then it will have negative impact on the roleplay landscape and be more disruptive to those other methods of resolving conflict.

[NauVaseline]

Way off topic by now but....

It's actually quite relevant to the main topic, since the UMD change had an enormous impact on PvP and that was the main source of player's consternation. Exploring the dynamics and motivations behind PvP heavily informs why some (myself included) that this change was a bad move.

I had a thought. If this was about opening up build choices... People still need wands. The UMD dip is still pretty necessary.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

So to equate someone good at pvp to being a good roleplayer because they generate conflict has to be a universally false statement.

Nobody said this. Literally nobody said this. You have invented that statement.

The only statement anyone could construe as even being vaguely related to this in any way shape or form, is summarised as follows:

Many excellent roleplayers also happen to be very mechanically savvy.

Something which hs been stated in this thread because some people have seen fit to dismiss anyone who gives a damn about pvp balance/mechanical awareness, to be a bad roleplayer and a powergamer.

As for people saying "oh game balance and pvp balance doesn't matter because there are better methods of resolving and creating conflict... Those other methods are, by mere fact of existing beyond mechanical consideration, balanced. However, mechanical conflict and pvp is something contained within the game, and it can and does comprise one of many tools by which roleplay can be furthered... We should, therefore, always seek for it to be balanced and fair. If it is left unbalanced, then it will have negative impact on the roleplay landscape and be more disruptive to those other methods of resolving conflict.

Well, I certainly never said anything about pvp players being power gamers or bad roleplayers, so perhaps you were just assuming that's what I meant. I get it, I assumed that people were saying good pvper = good roleplayer based on some of the things written here as well, and while I am certain you are prescribing a point of view that doesn't match mine to me its possible I was doing the same. Also, I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that balance in pvp for a server like arelith that has so much of it is desirable for the enjoyment of it all.

The point I was trying to reinforce is the point monkeywithstick made, that mechanical power means nothing. Your super build beats my gimp build but my gimp build has political power and your super build doesn't, you could kill me every day for the next six months and it means nothing. I use my political influence to get you exiled in every settlement on the surface, and your world is turned upside down. So while balance is definitely desirable because pvp is (a fun!) part of the game, playing around with and reshaping it is not the end of the world even if for a few weeks or months things are out of whack.

To quote a very funny player from my old server (or at least paraphrase) when talking about pvp: "Win, loose, it don't mean shit. No one is going to be bragging to their grandkids about how they beat x y and z at pvp". And that's from a server that the player base universally decided to turn pvp deaths into perma deaths despite it not being in the rule, which means they meant way more to the players involved then they do here on arelith...and they still didn't mean shit.

[Peppermint]

You may wish to reread monkeywithstick's post.

He never said that mechanics mean nothing. He said that mechanical power is not that relevant unless coupled with RP. However, when the RP is there, the mechanics do matter.

It's common sense.

Two characters have similar influence and weight. Which one's going to have the edge in the upcoming conflict? The one with the better builds, of course, because that one has more tools on their side.

Sure, death may not have mechanical consequences, but it certainly has roleplay consequences. And if you keep bashing your head against a wall and dying time and time again while crying, "But this doesn't matter!", the DMs absolutely will step in. Because that's dumb RP.

Don't get me wrong. I've played plenty of mechanically suboptimal characters and made do, primarily by latching onto characters that were mechanically stronger. However, if you actually think mechanics don't have a large impact on roleplay, then I can only assume that you're new to roleplay in a persistent world.

Which is fine. I really don't mean that as an insult or a knock on anyone. It's wonderful to have so many new players in the Neverwinter Nights community, though it absolutely can be a culture shock to those that come from PnP/forum RP/elsewhere. The same approach that works there won't work on Arelith.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

You may wish to reread monkeywithstick's post.

I read the entire thing.

He never said that mechanics mean nothing. He said that mechanical power is not that relevant unless coupled with RP. However, when the RP is there, the mechanics do matter.

It's common sense.

Two characters have similar influence and weight. Which one's going to have the edge in the upcoming conflict? The one with the better builds, of course, because that one has more tools on their side.

This is one we are going to definitely disagree on, because pvp on a server where you can respawn from pvp death is never going to be the deciding factor. I actually used to call this a bad thing, but given the focus on pvp some players have here I have come around to thinking this was the right way to go for arelith.

Sure, death may not have mechanical consequences, but it certainly has roleplay consequences. And if you keep bashing your head against a wall and dying time and time again while crying, "But this doesn't matter!", the DMs absolutely will step in. Because that's dumb RP.

This sounds right, until you see the strawmen it sets up. I never said anything about crying "this doesn't matter" nor did I imply that the person getting killed over and over again was the one instigating pvp. So, yes, a dm is likely going to get involved if one character kills another every day for six months, but its more then likely to go after the one that keeps on killing the weaker character over and over again. It was a extreme example however, and not meant to be taken literally.

Don't get me wrong. I've played plenty of mechanically suboptimal characters and made do, primarily by latching onto characters that were mechanically stronger. However, if you actually think mechanics don't have a large impact on roleplay, then I can only assume that you're new to roleplay in a persistent world.

I'm sure you have, and I am sure you fit as a player into the spirit of a roleplay server far more then some of your recent posts imply. My experience with you before the update announcement has always been pleasant even if it was clear early you were far more focused on pvp then I would expect from an rp server, and I have nothing bad to say about you beyond you overreacted a bit to the announcement. Passion gets us all from time to time. Also, I'm sure there are still plenty of people that consider me a rp server noob for joining my first one in 2004. That's three years after the game started, and while 15 years sounds like a long time for the sake of keeping the polite conversation going I will just say "Yup".

Which is fine. I really don't mean that as an insult or a knock on anyone. It's wonderful to have so many new players in the Neverwinter Nights community, though it absolutely can be a culture shock to those that come from PnP/forum RP/elsewhere. The same approach that works there won't work on Arelith.

Cool. I never get insulted by debates over games, they're just games. As someone who study's human behavior however I do want to inform you that if you constantly say "I don't mean to be insulting" the reaction is going to be that this person is actually trying to insult me, since people who aren't generally don't feel the need to clarify that. Something to think about if indeed its not something you intend to do.

[Subutai]

Keep in mind that approaching PvP death from the perspective of "death doesn't matter" is setting yourself up for an MoD, then death definitely will matter.

[Aodh Lazuli]

I cannot for the life of me understand why the attitude that says "PvP, death and mechanical combat are unimportant, and mechanics in general are worthless" is encouraged and empowered by an update that makes the gulf between good builds and bad builds wider and more pronounced.

I really just do not understand the logic.

Those of you who want to ignore mechanics and balance, prefering to build on RP concept alone (rather than find mechanically sound approximations) - This change actively hurts you more than anyone else, because it has made the list of viable builds smaller, not larger. There are now fewer mechanically sound ways to play the game. And people who know and understand the current meta will be more powerful in mechanical terms than previously, if they choose to play optimal builds.


Restating in another way... If a player has a character concept, they will now be less able to find a build which both matches their concept and is mechanically viable - Making their carefully crafted RP character MORE vulnerable to those who only play mechanically optimal builds and characters.

This is why most of the arguments of late in this thread have been so utterly baffling.

And this is why creating a healthy balance environment is so massively important.

[Nitro]

As someone who study's human behavior however I do want to inform you that if you constantly say "I don't mean to be insulting" the reaction is going to be that this person is actually trying to insult me, since people who aren't generally don't feel the need to clarify that. Something to think about if indeed its not something you intend to do.

As someone who studies human behaviour you should then also know that starting a sentence with "As someone who studies x" comes off as either rather condescending or self-aggrandizing.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

As someone who study's human behavior however I do want to inform you that if you constantly say "I don't mean to be insulting" the reaction is going to be that this person is actually trying to insult me, since people who aren't generally don't feel the need to clarify that. Something to think about if indeed its not something you intend to do.

As someone who studies human behaviour you should then also know that starting a sentence with "As someone who studies x" comes off as either rather condescending or self-aggrandizing.

Touche.

As far as the whole MoD comment goes, context is everything. The initial point was that pvp is essential to conflict resolution (and therefore balance must ALWAYS be maintained), my counter was that it doesn't mean shit on a server that lets you respawn from pvp (and therefore while balance is important it can go a bit wonky for a short time in search of a even better balance in the future). . My personal history with pvp deaths include staying dead, getting raised, and respawning but feeling dirty about it. I don't see me in any real danger of running into an issue.

[Berried]

Restating in another way... If a player has a character concept, they will now be less able to find a build which both matches their concept and is mechanically viable - Making their carefully crafted RP character MORE vulnerable to those who only play mechanically optimal builds and characters.

As someone who's actively trying to familiarize herself with Arelith's mechanics, I appreciate that you want to share your understanding of builds and balance with others. But if a player is fine with getting killed by more optimal builds, wherein lies the issue? As long as they're having a good time and enjoying arelith, let them die.

It cheapens the gravity of death, sure. But what is the alternative? We can't force them to care about pvp deaths.

[Peppermint]

No one ever said that PvP is essential to the resolution of a conflict. What a strange notion.

What was said is that (the threat of) PvP can affect the resolution of a conflict as well as the RP leading up to it.

I understand that's a subtle distinction, but it's an important one.

If a character can pound another one into the dirt, of course he's not going to treat them with the same degree of seriousness as one that might threaten him. We don't have to stretch back further than the reign of Monks to see this, perhaps a month prior. It was common for monks to all but ignore threat of consequences, because mechanics made them nigh immortal.

On a server where the threat of mechanical consequence does influence behaviors, on a server where DMs will step in when those consequences are ignored, and on a server where consequences are mechanically enforced by systems such as the Assassin's Guild, it strikes me as somewhat disingenuous to argue that conflict roleplay and mechanics aren't coupled on any level.

[NauVaseline]

On a server where the threat of mechanical consequence does influence behaviors, on a server where DMs will step in when those consequences are ignored, and on a server where consequences are mechanically enforced by systems such as the Assassin's Guild, it strikes me as somewhat disingenuous to argue that conflict roleplay and mechanics aren't coupled on any level.

It's a cry from those who do not wish to invest the time to learn the mechanics against those who have taken the time to learn them.

[Ork]

On a server where the threat of mechanical consequence does influence behaviors, on a server where DMs will step in when those consequences are ignored, and on a server where consequences are mechanically enforced by systems such as the Assassin's Guild, it strikes me as somewhat disingenuous to argue that conflict roleplay and mechanics aren't coupled on any level.

It's a cry from those who do not wish to invest the time to learn the mechanics against those who have taken the time to learn them.

What kills me is that mechanic information has been given freely over the past few years. There are literally people in this community that will equip you for informed decisions about any character you want to play. This wasn't the case years ago where mechanics were a well-guarded secret & actively suppressed. It seems like the pendulum swings backwards, but I am a firm believer that mechanics equate to greater agency.

There are some people in this thread that have argued for this change and asserted they know what they're talking about, but come into the discord with a near-nil knowledge of what actually is going on mechanically in this game. When you play a game — it's a good idea to understand the core mechanics of it. You wouldn't play a boardgame without reading the instructions and you wouldn't play D&D without reading the player's rulebook.

If you assert that PvP death has no consequences, I counter that I'd rather not play with you. There's a pervasive ideology that I've encountered before where players only want to build their sandcastles & will ignore anything that happens around them that they don't like. That's not collaborative story-telling and that's not the type of server Arelith is — or was.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

I cannot for the life of me understand why the attitude that says "PvP, death and mechanical combat are unimportant, and mechanics in general are worthless" is encouraged and empowered by an update that makes the gulf between good builds and bad builds wider and more pronounced.

I really just do not understand the logic.

Those of you who want to ignore mechanics and balance, prefering to build on RP concept alone (rather than find mechanically sound approximations) - This change actively hurts you more than anyone else, because it has made the list of viable builds smaller, not larger. There are now fewer mechanically sound ways to play the game. And people who know and understand the current meta will be more powerful in mechanical terms than previously, if they choose to play optimal builds.


Restating in another way... If a player has a character concept, they will now be less able to find a build which both matches their concept and is mechanically viable - Making their carefully crafted RP character MORE vulnerable to those who only play mechanically optimal builds and characters.

This is why most of the arguments of late in this thread have been so utterly baffling.

And this is why creating a healthy balance environment is so massively important.

I agree with your end conclusion (like the very last sentence only part), but sometimes i feel like people here are in completely different arelith bubbles. I know people who have hardly touched umd for the decade they been on arelith and they been huge forces of agency. Yet i read stuff like "you must never been blah blah blah if you think this".

The builds that didnt use umd before didnt get any weaker and there are a lot of said non caster characters over the past decade who never touched umd. So yeah, a lot of players are unphased by this. The players that tend to have more conflict before lvl 30, the players who just dont seem to enter conflict as much and have saved up those disjunction shards and phased out items over many years, the ones who just don't care at all about pvp, the ones who are luke warm about it, it's a lot of players.

That being said, I care about balance while not being a fan of the discipline/umd/tumble tax. But came to understood arelith has been balanced around it. With the lvl 28 cookies, and on and on. I ended up accepting that having a different system would require to undo much of arelith and perhaps NWN itself. So I was surprised too when this umd change came, just not caring nearly as much (still care though lol).

I think this explosion has been a long time coming, its the band wagon to pull a lot of bent up suppressed feeling by players who never liked how mechanics focused arelith may feel to them.

My said journey to accepting the meta (before umd nerf) involved a few nasty arguments with some build people (no names right now, but you guys can get out of hand) abour current mechanics vs lore. I learned a lot, even if the aggressive comebacks thought i wasnt comprehending because i focused else where. I seen others get ridiculed too. But in the end, I knew that with my philosophical differences, mine were not practical to achieve.

I know the dev teams have their work cut out for them to make whatever vision they have as practical/balanced as the system before wrenches started getting thrown into it. I hope they are successful and I don't think all this salt is helping. I just wanted to shed some light why there will be a lot of players out their making the "worry less about lvl 30 pvp" argument. And id say I half agree with them. I say be just as concerned/caring, but don't let it consume you. Just like IG we can't control the stories around us and things will not always go our way, rolling eith it and doing our best to make sure everyone involved (and why balance still matters as it includes everyone) is having a fun time.

That being said, I think a cowled wizard like faction that curbed stompped anyone for abusing/misuing/handing out magic innapropiately would have been a much more interesting way to curbe the abundance of higher level spell scrolls for everyone. (The faction would obvously make PC wizards lives more difficult too) like the scrolls that everyone relies on arelith arnt actaully part of arelith's core shops, umd being gap closer only happened because the market made it happen. Arelith as a module on its own never actaully provided the tools directly. Which is why im curious what the devs plan on doing in the future to have mundanes not rely on said spell scrolls.

[-XXX-]

If you assert that PvP death has no consequences, I counter that I'd rather not play with you. There's a pervasive ideology that I've encountered before where players only want to build their sandcastles & will ignore anything that happens around them that they don't like. That's not collaborative story-telling and that's not the type of server Arelith is — or was.

Well, there is another side to this coin - namely that players probably ought not to have the ability to force their narrative on others simply by the virtue of possessing supperior skill or mechanical knowledge.

I suppose that the right balance is to be found somewhere in the middle between both sides of this argument.
I'd even go as far as to suggest that this sort of balance is more important than mechanical balance (especially when taking into account that up until now the PvP mechanical balance kicked in mostly just for optimized top tier cookie cutter builds upon reaching the max lvl and best equipment attainable).

[xanrael]

I think sometimes when the discussion of PvP influencing outcomes comes up the nuance of what exactly happened can be missed.

On one extreme we have:

PC1: "Be my slave."
PC2: "No."
PC1 subdues PC2
PC1: "Now you're my slave, go put on a collar."

The above is a pretty terrible execution. PC1 has set the stakes that PC2 loses everything and risks little to nothing in return. PC1 isn't going to give up being a slaver or reroll if they're killed here but expects PC1 to completely change their character's plans if they lose. There is the absolute minimum of RP present. I wouldn't personally blame PC2 for not going along with this.

And on the other:

Faction A and B are fighting over who controls some area. There are spies, secret deals, small skirmishes and finally a big battle at the end. The stakes are equal for both, there is plenty of RP and events and while the outcome of a large PvP is the ultimate deciding factor it seems like the climax to a story. I'd personally see the losing faction not honoring this as not respecting the outcome. Maybe in a RL month they could try to strike back but give the winning faction their victory and RP the reprecussions of defeat.

Most conflict is somewhere between these two extremes and in my mind where it falls partially determines how much weight the PvP will likely have on the actual outcome.

[susitsu]

In the end, the mechanic-savvy community really screwed themselves by being open and available with information. I don't see them doing that again.

This has some sick logic to it. I know for a fact before even two years ago, which is a short time for Arelith, these communities were rather closed off and started helping players more actively in recent times. It was treated like a competition, where the more information you could have enclosed, the better you were when compared to other groups of builders.

This competition culture is just starting to die, maybe. I would hope. I stay away from the Arelith discord for good reasons. Not run by Arelith.


I’ve already said “bad idea,” and “players quitting.” So there’s really nothing left to tell the staff, assuming they’re listening. Any point being brought up now was already in the thread, and I, like others, will go away from the server with this change as long as it sticks, and it’ll be done with a heavy heart over all the effort I’ve devoted to my writing here. The truth is, I probably won’t even go to anothe server and just stop playing NWN outright.

I wanted to play on Arelith for its mechanics. Now I don’t.


@Adoh There’s actually supposed to be pissed off entities that kill people for Time Stopping too much. I forget what they are called, but preventing these scary monsters from noticing Arelith would be a good enough roleplay reason to regulate people and their magic.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

In the end, the mechanic-savvy community really screwed themselves by being open and available with information. I don't see them doing that again.

This has some sick logic to it. I know for a fact before even two years ago, which is a short time for Arelith, these communities were rather closed off and started helping players more actively in recent times. It was treated like a competition, where the more information you could have enclosed, the better you were when compared to other groups of builders.

This competition culture is just starting to die, maybe. I would hope. I stay away from the Arelith discord for good reasons. Not run by Arelith.


I’ve already said “bad idea,” and “players quitting.” So there’s really nothing left to tell the staff, assuming they’re listening. Any point being brought up now was already in the thread, and I, like others, will go away from the server with this change as long as it sticks, and it’ll be done with a heavy heart over all the effort I’ve devoted to my writing here. The truth is, I probably won’t even go to anothe server and just stop playing NWN outright.

I wanted to play on Arelith for its mechanics. Now I don’t.


@Adoh There’s actually supposed to be pissed off entities that kill people for Time Stopping too much. I forget what they are called, but preventing these scary monsters from noticing Arelith would be a good enough roleplay reason to regulate people and their magic.

I would have liked to see some in game consequences/events to heavy magic use be it from mages or scroll users (both in this scenario) as a good rp solution to keep the world thematic to its intention vs gutting the mechanics (more work will need to get done). I understand your frustration, ill be sad when my group moves on from first edition pathfinder. Hopefully Arelith will get better and evolve into something you like again.

That may take time and you might just not be back, maybe you will. It sucks and this happens in life.

[Aodh Lazuli]

This has some sick logic to it. I know for a fact before even two years ago, which is a short time for Arelith, these communities were rather closed off and started helping players more actively in recent times. It was treated like a competition, where the more information you could have enclosed, the better you were when compared to other groups of builders.

This is very precisely the opposite of my experience when I arrived here three and three-quarter years ago. I arrived utterly clueless, and was taught by very generous strangers, within a week of arriving, how not to suck. I have cntinued being taught by those same people who have ceased to be stranged for the entire time I have been here - And following their generous lead, spend my time distributing the knowledge I have gathered in the time since.

I run the 3.0 discord as a service to players for that very reason - So that knowledge can be distributed, and so we do not have "secret tech", and so we can be on the same page and all understand how the game works.

From the very moment of my arrival, I have never been involved in such a mechanically-open and non-secretive place in all the years I have been involved in online gaming communities of any sort.


In general, though... Yeah. I also feel a lot of loss with this change. It is a negative change to the balance and meta, brought on by attitudes that exist in certain elements of both the staff and community. The symptomatic manifestation of those attitudes is something that is actually self-harming to the people who hold those opinions. The powergamers and min-maxers and "bad hobres" south of the mechanics wall are now more powerful.

@Adoh There’s actually supposed to be pissed off entities that kill people for Time Stopping too much. I forget what they are called, but preventing these scary monsters from noticing Arelith would be a good enough roleplay reason to regulate people and their magic.

Yes, there is an anti-chronomancy organisation, and I too forget them name of it.

Three points, however:

- Nobody cares aout timestop in balance terms. If anyone was beaten with timestop, then in 99% of cases they would have been beaten without its use, too. It was nerfed a while back due to being percieved as a one-button fight winner, despite the fact it was not, with a number of counterplays including -pray, and having hitpoints.

- Spells such as Mords are far more important in game balance terms.

- That organisation you mention cares ONLY about chronomancy, if I recall, and not magic in general.

[Ork]

PC1 isn't going to give up being a slaver or reroll if they're killed here but expects PC1 to completely change their character's plans if they lose.

I think this is a pretty poor example, but I'll engage it. Why can't we expect people to change their character's plans on a server like Arelith? Fun is derived in shared story-telling, and this is a perfect example of an opportunity to do that. Now, PC2 has all the agency in the world in this encounter. So they lost combat and are subdued, but PC1 can't speak to the clamper on PC2's behalf — PC2 gets to choose if he takes the collar or not.

Now, there's two kinds of roleplayers here. The first is what you're suggesting — that they both aren't interested in a collaborative story-telling experience and are just 1-dimensional tropes of "slaver" and would-be "slavee". Boring on both counts. The other type of roleplayer uses these experiences to include others, and the real kicker is that only ONE of these players needs to be this way. If PC1 is only interested in PvP and does what he does, and fails to provide at least a modicum of interesting roleplay, that's on him. But PC2 can take this encounter and start showing a fear of encountering this slaver again, or show wounds from the encounter and seek to collect others to find and execute this slaver, or ..really the list goes on.

If any player after an encounter shrugs it off and continues like nothing happens — you can do better.

[Cortex]

found a 6 use wof rod

guess with enough of those and the other busted loot, we may all have been wrong, and actually its the age of 0 lore umd mundanes stomping casters with no req OP rods, ammunition, and rods.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

found a 6 use wof rod

guess with enough of those and the other busted loot, we may all have been wrong, and actually its the age of 0 lore umd mundanes stomping casters with no req OP rods, ammunition, and rods.

I actually said this was a bigger issue back on page six a week ago, but I'm just an idiot noob that isn't worthy of an opinion so all of the balance discussion has been about nerfing wizards the past week.

So you don't have to scroll to check;

So, wait, you can skip umd and there is going to be loot usable by anyone letting a fighter get the next tier of bonuses, and somehow this is a buff to wizards? You guys always tout your knowledge of the game, and often you are spot on but every once in a while something happens that makes me question your tunnel vision. The only difference is that people are not going to have stacks of scrolls and will actually have to find the loot, assuming some of these items are going to be high level spells on a stick. Its too soon to say for sure without knowing what these rods are going to be, but I have a feeling that the exact opposite of what is being predicted here will actually be true.