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[Opustus]

Meh, I think the server changes are undermined by sheer hyperbole. Veteran players are considering these changes only from their elitist, parochial viewpoint and are forgetting that there is a portion of the community who aren't sticklers for balance and still can enjoy the game.

I see where this comes from, although it sounds really cheap in a lot of ways. Of course veterant players are considering the impact on high-level PvP because this actually happens often. Moreover, I'm not sure how this UMD change is supposed to be better for the rest of the community either. It's probably more detrimental to both levelling and fun (of using consummables) than anything.
I don't think veterant players are despising the newer members of the community at all, and I don't think it's right to imply that either.

Apologies for the editing time, it's a bit hellish on the phone.

Of course, veteran players have a lot of knowledge that can and should inform decisions especially in regard to balance. This feedback can be given and should be received, and balance is something that can be tweaked afterwards with this in mind.

Many sentiments are very pointed: e.g. claiming that the changes are massive and have made things for the worse permanently is incredibly picky and premature. These changes have been online for a day now, and several people have taken what seems to be an unflappable stance, and their staunchness disregards the possibility that there are aspects of gameplay that other people might greatly enjoy. I think many opinions are overly focused on balance and less focused on other aspects of gameplay e.g. how cool it is to specialise into weapon categories, how valuable it is to offer new mechanics for character development outside of fighting. Changes cater to the server which comprises a community with various tastes and preferences that greatly differ. This doesn't mean that the veteran's opinion would be without merit or importance, just that it's limited and must be integrated to a balanced consideration of the feedback.

I see many pointed opinions as founded in some respects, but completely unfounded in others. Hence, I feel justified to call these opinions parochial; elitist was maybe a stretch. Also, though this may seem defensive, there's a distinction between calling a viewpoint elitist and a person elitist; the latter was very far from my intention, and I don't deign to be a good judge of anyone's character here nor would I want to be. I certainly did not mean to imply that new players would be despised by anyone in the ongoing discussion.

After the changes, I have played a good 3 hours of PvM content without any of the changes affecting my gameplay at all. I trust that this applies to most gameplay experience after the changes. The changes are targeted and shake up gameplay in a limited and controllable scope.

What do you mean the UMD change not being better for the community? In my humbledore, it defines the roles of casters by restricting powerful spells to their arsenal only. I don't like the aesthetic and feel of any level 5 character being able to summon a planar subject at all, or non-casters being able to invoke Timestop or Mordekainen's Disjunction out of a measly scroll. This opinion does not take into account the balance of it, but luckily some balance-minded people are addressing the issue.

EDIT: Edited to quote the right person. Oof.

[Dr. B]

humbledore

What??

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I really think the Commoner class should be restricted behind an RPR gate.

Because if this leads to more exclusive, insular "social roleplay" that's anti-conflict ... well, I just bet you its going to. There's a big difference between not being a "mover and shaker" and literally domicile.

Commoners are inherently rewarded by not-adventuring, and everyone getting along. Stability is something a commoner would look for, because instability and conflict exploits your weakness of not being about to do anything but be a merchant.

Sure, if every commoner was a merchant of war, a drug dealer, or somehow a nefarious instigator, that'd be great. But I bet you that's not how the majority of them are going to be played.

There was a real opportunity with haks to add setting-specific classes that could be centered entirely around conflict (i.e. the Red Wizards of Thay, the Black Hand, the Zhentarim Agent), etc., some sort of appropriate foil to the Harper Scout but instead we get....

a blacksmith.

[time_limited]

@Opustus if you are quoting please quote correctly I didn't say anything you quoted me for above

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Commoners rely on adventurers so i see no real worry,

I share concerns about knockdown, because it can be hard to control which of your attacks uses the knockdown attempt and waiting your one every 18 seconds on a low ab really punishes those less time flurry savvy which i think betrays the intention of these changes.

[Opustus]

@Opustus if you are quoting please quote correctly I didn't say anything you quoted me for above

Whoops, wasn't quoting you but Etchelion, just derped. Sorry about that!

[Nitro]

Commoners rely on adventurers so i see no real worry,

But do they though? A decently built commoner at 30 will be able to go through any PvE content solo barring epic dungeons, which means they can easily access 99% of the required crafting materials on the server. The rest they can simply buy with the cash they'll make of being able to do so many crafts.

[Archnon]

Commoners rely on adventurers so i see no real worry,

But do they though? A decently built commoner at 30 will be able to go through any PvE content solo barring epic dungeons, which means they can easily access 99% of the required crafting materials on the server. The rest they can simply buy with the cash they'll make of being able to do so many crafts.

The problem I see is not that a commoner is independent or that it is good that it relies on other characters. The problem I see is people abusing the system by funneling supplies to their friends alt commoner, while their friend funnels supplies to theirs. When you have a high RP adventurer and an alt commoner and your friend also has one, you can mule stuff all day long within the faction and neither the DM's nor the other players will ever know the difference. Further, given the CP they get, you really don't need more than two in a faction to craft pretty much anything!

If you wanted to create this avenue for RP as a crafting merchant, then cap the amount of levels for the class (ie merge expert and commoner into a single epic class called Merchant that has a cop of 10 levels, like some other epic classes!) or, create npc's that will craft for you for a really high rate! The current system just invites abuse.

My only true hope under this system is that some bearded scholar will come along and unite these commoner alts in an effort to overthrow the capital owning adventuring overlords

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

I feel like everyone's overlooking the adventuring story where you bring the tradesmen that knows exactly what wood you need from which tree, or which flower from which plant, or which metal from which vein in the mine, and that's all they're really good for. Maybe they have a gimp leg or something, but for whatever reason, they don't fight, they make things that other people who aren't as limited need to save the world.

There's a TON of potential story narratives here with the commoner class, and I'm somewhat sad that the primary focus is on the fact that pre-existing characters now have to share their mechanical crafting spotlight with characters devoted to nothing but, like commoner as a class is somehow going to cause less adventures like we became sinfar or something.

[Sea Shanties]

Nerf the Svirf hammer?! Blasphamy... why don't you take the little joy my poor Svirfneblin has and just stomp all over it why don't you?!

I think the Svirf is not where it needs to be, and in light of the "whole package" you get playing the race, another multiplier on crit isn't going to lead to a massive influx of God Tier Svirfneblin taking over the UD by strong arming the Drow matrons with their light hammers of doom....

Yah those hammers are 75 UMD, effectively nobody but gnomes can use them unless they're really determined to find 40+ UMD points somewhere. Svirf battle-clerics are lackluster even with the hammer so it's not too often anyone will even play a character who can make one. If that weapon was routinely finding its way into human warlock hands it would be one thing but I'd say just let them have the crit bonus. Svirfneblin and to a lesser extent gnomes in general are such a sidelined race I think they can have this.

Also I think the point about guilds and factions making commoner crafting bot alts is a good one. Not much you can really do about it though if they're RPed properly. It's one of those things some people call a feature and others a problem.

[Echohawk]

In light of everything, I'm focusing on commoner because most of what I'd otherwise say has been said.

It feels like the class is a fish club to the face. It's very suddenly jarring compared to everything else on the server thus far. It can be a strange way to 'retire' a character or make a complete meme NPC-PC. The novelty will wear off fast and there might be one or two people willing to afk every six minutes macro either a small walk command or text dialogue to get their ticks in.

Apart from novelty it doesn't really have a place. It's the chance to absolutely be decimated by anything with a pulse and BAB. I understand that master level clerics having a day job seems weird, but being utterly helpless doesn't really seem like fun at all. And if we're going to start adding things that are there for the novelty and for the afk crafter robots and/or rp fluff classes you could add animal for all it can be worth. Give them beast feats, claw attacks, because it makes as much sense as a no XP for killing commoner atm.

[Naiinara]

A mage can chain Avascular Mass with spells like Timestop, Cloudkill, and IGMS for burst. A cleric cannot.

I was real interested to see what Avascular Mass did in combination with the power word spells myself. It feels like it could make a sure big bonus to the DC for a power word spell.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Commoners rely on adventurers so i see no real worry,

But do they though? A decently built commoner at 30 will be able to go through any PvE content solo barring epic dungeons, which means they can easily access 99% of the required crafting materials on the server. The rest they can simply buy with the cash they'll make of being able to do so many crafts.

The problem I see is not that a commoner is independent or that it is good that it relies on other characters. The problem I see is people abusing the system by funneling supplies to their friends alt commoner, while their friend funnels supplies to theirs. When you have a high RP adventurer and an alt commoner and your friend also has one, you can mule stuff all day long within the faction and neither the DM's nor the other players will ever know the difference. Further, given the CP they get, you really don't need more than two in a faction to craft pretty much anything!

If you wanted to create this avenue for RP as a crafting merchant, then cap the amount of levels for the class (ie merge expert and commoner into a single epic class called Merchant that has a cop of 10 levels, like some other epic classes!) or, create npc's that will craft for you for a really high rate! The current system just invites abuse.

My only true hope under this system is that some bearded scholar will come along and unite these commoner alts in an effort to overthrow the capital owning adventuring overlords

Besides that mules or alts helping your main character is bad etiquette to begin with, i could level up several non commoners alts (all with crafting) into their epics much faster than the time grind of a single commomer. Remember you get no combat or writ exp. So even while getting your owm resources. No exp! Unless you are heavily rping your commomer for months straight, you arnt going to be epic levels. Its terrible alt material and easily flaggable if abused because of how much time you have to sink in for an epic commoner.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I feel like everyone's overlooking the adventuring story where you bring the tradesmen that knows exactly what wood you need from which tree, or which flower from which plant, or which metal from which vein in the mine, and that's all they're really good for. Maybe they have a gimp leg or something, but for whatever reason, they don't fight, they make things that other people who aren't as limited need to save the world.

There's a TON of potential story narratives here with the commoner class, and I'm somewhat sad that the primary focus is on the fact that pre-existing characters now have to share their mechanical crafting spotlight with characters devoted to nothing but, like commoner as a class is somehow going to cause less adventures like we became sinfar or something.

You can already play your expert tradesmen. There's nothing that says otherwise.

I'm willing to bet you $$$ that nothing good will come of it. The last thing Arelith needs is more opportunities to engage in conflict-less roleplay. We should be tearing down walls, making things tense, and stirring the pot - not letting people kick back and pick flowers.

[14All]

Spells are neat, I miss UMD, Lore is weird, mages are strong(er), change is scary. Peppermint and others are correct, no need for repetition from me.

On the new classes, people have always been able to play commoners. Nothing has ever stopped someone from playing a commoner. I have played more commoners, homebody priests and city-restricted nobles than I've played adventurers. It isn't new. That said, I like new classes, but I don't see the point in this one. As long as somebody likes it, though, it's fine. I do like the "Craft Mastery" skill as it opens up an option for my existing commoner-style characters to dump their points into.

[Brandon Steel]

Completely off from everything else being discussed here but does the heavy mace seem absolutely horrible to anyone else? A large weapon with 1d10 x2, eesh. Compare that to the maul that was also just added, 2d6 x3. I assume maybe the heavy mace is a simple weapon but I still can’t see why anyone would use it really.

[Peppermint]

That is poor indeed.

Some more things to consider:

1. It seems Heavy Flail was also changed to 3d6/x2 (i.e. the update notes included a typo).

While I imagine the intent was to buff the weapon, it was in fact nerfed rather hard with this change. High base damage is rather meaningless past level ~10 or so; strength outscales it, especially on a large weapon. Before the update, the Heavy Flail was slightly worse than a Greatsword (i.e. 1.5 less base damage, same critical range).

I urge the team to revert this change. Regardless of the erroneous information presented in the announcement thread, it was never a 20/x2 weapon.

2. Bastard Swords are apparently included in two-handed weapon groups, making actually two-handing them functionally pointless for most builds (i.e. anything not a Weapon Master).

If you need to two-hand, you're far better off swapping to a Greatsword, and then swapping back to a Bastard Sword when tanking.

This utterly destroys the niche of -twohand weapons, which I feel is rather sad. -twohand weapons need their own weapon group apart from large weapons and otherwise optimal weapons (i.e. scimitar, rapier, etc.) in order to serve a role.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

That is poor indeed.

Some more things to consider:

1. It seems Heavy Flail was also changed to 3d6/x2 (i.e. the update notes included a typo).

While I imagine the intent was to buff the weapon, it was in fact nerfed rather hard with this change. High base damage is rather meaningless past level ~10 or so; strength outscales it, especially on a large weapon. Before the update, the Heavy Flail was slightly worse than a Greatsword (i.e. 1.5 less base damage, same critical range).

I urge the team to revert this change. Regardless of the erroneous information presented in the announcement thread, it was never a 20/x2 weapon.

2. Bastard Swords are apparently included in two-handed weapon groups, making actually two-handing them functionally pointless for most builds (i.e. anything not a Weapon Master).

If you need to two-hand, you're far better off swapping to a Greatsword, and then swapping back to a Bastard Sword when tanking.

This utterly destroys the niche of -twohand weapons, which I feel is rather sad. -twohand weapons need their own weapon group apart from large weapons and otherwise optimal weapons (i.e. scimitar, rapier, etc.) in order to serve a role.

Im mixed feelings on the bastard sword. Like if it is a "necessary lost". Like yeah you will never see someone two handing bastard swords unless its an orog weaponmaster, or you just acquired a top tier bastard sword and don't have equivelant greatsword to go with it, but the flexibility to have both greatsword snd board and sword i think is worth it. Especially since weapon masters are superior usually in comparison to non weapon master fighter builds. Having both bastard sword and great sword is applicable to only non wm builds (so paladins of Torm finally using great swords while not forsaking shields) and still requires the character to money invest in both. I consider that a net gain.

As for heavy flails, I assumed with character being good with more than one weapon, the flail is a weapon of choice against things not so crit friendly.

I feel both still serve their role, and too be honest. Untill they fix -twohand commands for smsll creatures, im fine with -two hand becoming a little bit irrelevant. But i won't die on that hill.

I also share your concerns with the new two handled monk weapon full ubab. I will note the ab and damage bonuses for monk weapon have been reduced, but plus 2 ab two hsnder weapon would definitely add to the problem.

And yes falchion should require exotic, im thinking exotic two handers might need their own group too Otherwise one can go falchion/scythe + bastard and shield. This would take away what i said earlier about paladins using great swords. Im fine with great swords snf bastard mixing but falchion on top of that might be too much.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

We should be tearing down walls, making things tense, and stirring the pot - not letting people kick back and pick flowers.

I agree with this part- but one of the most relatable conflicts in typical high fantasy RPG's is the need to protect people who can't protect themselves. There are tons of narrative reasons why your character might want to protect another, but in a world where everyone who crafts can also slay a dragon in one on one combat to salvage a few vials of its blood, there's not a great need for such narrative situations, and they come off feeling contrived.

In this case, the lack of ability of these characters to fight well for themselves generates a necessity for other people to do the fighting for them, for one reason or another. It allows a certain depth to the atmosphere to see regular people that aren't epic heroes and/or villains that actually interact with the world (and the player) sans DM influence.

Don't forget these crafter-commoners (whose skill in crafting will outstrip most adventuring crafters) might well become famous and in high demand- there's also a lot of avenues for kidnap, blackmail, and even slavery there, regardless of how much they may intend to just peacefully sit in their garden with the flowers.

You can't have a superhero story without someone helpless to rescue or tie to the train tracks, and this gives people a reason to play someone helpless.

[Dr. B]

I'm not really bothered by the commoner update, to be honest. And I should also point out that it's not necessarily without conflict; what if two commoners want to lay claim to the same shop, for instance? What if one of those commoners is evil?

[Vrass]

what if two commoners want to lay claim to the same shop, for instance? What if one of those commoners is evil?

Set up a cage match and do the whole, "Two men enter, one man leaves" thing

[hmm]

The update had good intentions, but warrior classes feel hated.

[Dr. B]

what if two commoners want to lay claim to the same shop, for instance? What if one of those commoners is evil?

Set up a cage match and do the whole, "Two men enter, one man leaves" thing

Or hire someone to do your dirty work, and have the conflict through a proxy.