The new rod usability

[ltlukoziuz]

- Added the first 23 magical rods to the loot matrix. In keeping with D&D lore these powerful high level spell items do not require class or skill checks, and are open for universal use.

A mixture of single use and charged items, all of significant use to player characters.

We currently had only three of them already looted and revealed to more folk, but it's already rather distressing that they are called "of significant use". For those who don't know, rods are 1.0 weighing "wand-like" items (so, unstackable, as sad as it is), which have some charges to zap a high-level spell, with no UMD/Lore requirement to them.

On paper, that sounds like an awesome idea, making magic tools rarer, but still available. But let's see what we have at our hands:

- Greater Spell Breach. 18 charges, but uses three charges per cast (so it could have been easily written out as six single charges, but whatever on that).
Nickname: It will have to do
Not as strong as Mord's, but at least it's usable, and won't be scoffed at. Can't really say anything bad about it, asides from that it can't be stacked for ease of quickbar (but that's a general issue, for which there's no fix (no if you stack them all, it will be terribad - look at bandages. If you have multiple bandages stacked and use one, it will take a single charge from all the bandages in stack. That's just how NWN works)

- Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting. CL 20, Single-Use
Nickname: Horrid Horrid Wilting
First of all, let me preface that the spell itself isn't bad. In hands of a potent necromancer shadow mage, it is a huge damage splat for those who don't have fort save (read: other casters/rogues), a valiant option if for some reason you can't do Evo magic. So you can't deny that the spell is not "of significant use" in itself.
However, let's take this rod and cast it. As per its CL, it should deal 20d8 magical damage - an average of 90 damage. That sounds fairly strong, especially if you can get 3+ targets in it, outshining martial characters whirlwind strike (if one had it) by a fair amount on a damage type not easily resisted.
But now I cast it, and look and behold, all the targets took only 45 damage on average. You scratch your head surprised at the tiny tickle that the wand did, and look at the combat log to see the issue with most of these rods - their DC. Instead of 41-43 DC that a specialized wizard will stack on it, you cast it at measly 19 - a save deniable by anything worth pointing this rod at. Considering that you sacrifice a round of attacks to use the rod, you're suddenly looking at no increase in your power compared to if you were swinging your weapon of choice at them.

- Meteor Swarm. CL17, Single-Use
Nickname: A Reflex Wilting rod
Let's see. A spell used by actual wizards: Check. Average damage of 90: Check. DC 19 because it's a magical item: Check. Saveable by anyone worthy pointing this at: Check. So, average damage of 45: Check.
Not to mention it's now on an easier to resist damage type (fire vs magical), and there's a safe zone if you're hugging the caster (in 6.6 meter range).

Code: Select all

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So, we have a single good rod and two rods which bring no increased strength to a character (and in case of Meteor Swarm's rod, likely even makes them waste a round). Now this could mean two things of why they were added:

1) The rod author was not informed of how magical item DCs work and didn't know that they will be at DC19 compared to spellcaster's 39-43, neutering their strength and normalizing them to damage that a mundane can already pull off without blasting it
2) The rod author actively wanted to pollute the loot matrix, which already holds a large amount of loot pollution (which wouldn't be a bad thing in a smaller dose, considering not everyone is level 21+ and there is a need for crap in the table to be sold as gold/used by newer folk and to inflate rarity "somewhat", but alas, that is not true here)

I really hope it is the number 1 we're dealing with and not the number 2, as the former problem can be fixed through introducing custom effects, and then having raised (or none at all) DCs on them. But unless the 23 rods hide any pearls in them (and GSB could be called a pearl), they will stay as mostly joke tools or just "alright".

[Shadowy Reality]

Scrolls and wands work exactly this way when it comes to DCs.
Scroll Horrid Wilting is CL15, the wand is 20. You needed UMD to use them before, now you don't.

What are we complaining about exactly? Wands also activate faster than Scrolls did, so there is that too. The only thing you can complain is that they are not stackable and they are not as easily acquired, but that is nitpicking.

[ltlukoziuz]

Scrolls and wands work exactly this way when it comes to DCs.
Scroll Horrid Wilting is CL15, the wand is 20. You needed UMD to use them before, now you don't.

What are we complaining about exactly? Wands also activate faster than Scrolls did, so there is that too. The only thing you can complain is that they are not stackable and they are not as easily acquired, but that is nitpicking.

Yes, they work the same as scrolls - of spells which nobody scrolled. My complaint is that we're polluting the loot matrix with more junk than it needs to hold by today.

[Tarkus the dog]

Anyone wanna talk about why the people who have more time to grind dungeons should also automatically have bigger access to these rods?

For now those three seem not that big of a deal ( and like the poster said, a fine addition to the grand collection that is the (junk) loot matrix), but if we start running into Timestop and Word of Faith rods?

The guy with more time to play = better UMD?

[Shadowy Reality]

Anyone wanna talk about why the people who have more time to grind dungeons should also automatically have bigger access to these rods?

For now those three seem not that big of a deal ( and like the poster said, a fine addition to the grand collection that is the (junk) loot matrix), but if we start running into Timestop and Word of Faith rods?

The guy with more time to play = better UMD?

This was already the case, although to a smaller extent. The Rods are commodities like Scrolls and Wands are. Whoever plays the most has more opportunities to loot them and more opportunities to get gold to purchase them from others.

We could ask the same regarding Runic items, why do people with more time to get to the chests get better items than me?

[Nitro]

The difference lies in availability. A level 5 character could get enough gold on a dungeon dive to get several tier 7-9 scrolls. And runic materials, unlike say mords scrolls are just a power boost, not an essential item to counter spellcasters.

[Eters]

Past situation :

Player with limited time could still have access to UMD in shops with moderate time investment, because 1- they weren't too expensive, and 2- due to their limited time they didn't need them in high quantities as they wouldn't run into situations that require them too often. This allowed people with limited time to have access to the needed tools to survive, while also having enough time to engage in roleplay/story telling that doesn't occur within dungeons.

Current situation :

Player with limited time can't have access to rods with moderate investment, because 1- they'll be expensive due to their rarity (And as seen the loot matrix seems to have some useless rods added, just to make the useful ones even rarer), and 2- the fact is they won't run many dungeons in the limited time they have, if they do they'll have to forsake the chance to RP outside of dungeons in order to go on grind trains that don't even have a good chance of yielding the wanted result.


Right now Arelith, which is a roleplay server is asking you, the player, to go stab things repeatedly until you drop your desired item, rather than roleplay with another player, a mage, to scribe the scrolls for you. And hells, even if you opt for going the second route, to use any scroll worth it you have to invest so much in lore you may as well become Thoramind yourself, which seems to go against the server's main charm.


In the end the problem is player born, mages and clerics complain about people having easy access to UMD scrolls, when they themselves were the ones providing said people with the UMD. Shops were open dedicated to offer to the masses the very tools to fight against their creator, If the issue was that large why did people make scrolls/wands so blatantly to everyone?

[Party in the forest at midnight]

I've found a few rods too that, while being high level spells, really weren't all that desirable. For example, I found weird and bombardment rods. I wouldn't use them as a caster because I could cast stronger things. And I don't see it being useful for melee, who could do more damage focusing on things with their weapons. And if they use AoE rods to hit a lot of enemies while surrounded, they're now flatfooted and are worse off. So these rods aren't even good at being tank-aggro management tools.

I found a rod of greater dispel with 6 charges which seems alright, however dispel is a lot less useful on a rod/wand than breach effects because it's CL based and runs into the same DC problems as the other rods. In contrast, breach spells will always remove at least a few breachable spells. A use from a lesser spell breach wand will always remove 2 buffs that are on the list of things it effects, which is a lot more useful in a hostile situation than gambling with a rod that might not remove anything at all.


I think an issue with the rods is that a lot of the spells on them I never saw anyone using via scroll because they're just not all that useful. Some of the spells I don't even see dedicated casters using, because there are better spells to use in those slots. The offensive rods end up not having a niche.

When I sell scrolls, people always wanted things like word of faith, disjunction, gate, black blade of disaster, summon creature 9, premonition, mind blank, lesser mind blank, shadow shield, true seeing, timestop, and keen edge. These spells are all utility, not offensive. The same thing goes for wand sales. People want buffs, not offensive spells.

I'd suggest removing offensive spells from on-use items, and focus on having more utility spells.

[Peppermint]

Even ignoring all the useless rods (which seems to be most of them), this solution is just not practical.

Rods weigh too much.
Rods take too much inventory space.
Rods consume far too many quickslots.

Scrolls worked well because they were light and stackable. Any replacement system will have to be similar to be practical.

[JubJub]

Honestly it seems like we are just complaining about stuff because we need something to complain about. A 1lb rod is too heavy, too much space, too many quickslots? It's basicly what any wand user has been dealing with forever, and we have survived. Don't like the rods, sell them.

[Peppermint]

It disappoints me when someone assumes dishonest intent when criticisms are made. No dialogue can be had when people take that point of view.

Rods are nothing like wands. Wands tend to have 30+ charges. Most rods discovered so far have charges in the single digits, with one charge being the most common.

Imagine a rod with Mordenkainen's Disjunction. One charge. For ten uses, that rod would take 10 quickslots, 20 inventory slots, and 10 lbs.

The equivalent in scrolls would be 1 quickslot, 1 inventory slot, and 1.0 lb.

If rods are intended to replace scrolls in the meta, then surely the issue should be plain to see.

[Nitro]

Honestly it seems like we are just complaining about stuff because we need something to complain about. A 1lb rod is too heavy, too much space, too many quickslots? It's basicly what any wand user has been dealing with forever, and we have survived. Don't like the rods, sell them.

The rods, an unstackable 3 slot item weighing 1lb each, most seeming to have 1 charge of the ones uncovered so far, are the replacement for scrolls. a stackable 1-slot item weighing 0.1lb each, also each with one charge each and not RNG in which one you get.

If you're going to equate things to shut down the people who are somewhat upset at this change, at least equate the right things.

When I first heard rods were being introduced I imagined we'd be getting 50 charge or 1/day items, or barring that, some sort of craft wondrous item feat for spellcasters to make rods (at a higher price than scrolls). This is just kind of dissapointing.

[JubJub]

Simply saying this is not much different then what wand users have experienced, I mean you now have a rod with stuff on it you could never put on a wand. Unlike a scroll some you get a few uses out of , you can sell them if you want to and they don't weigh a lot unless you're carrying about 20 of them. I'm sorry but it just seems like if it's not a scroll some won't be happy regardless.

[Peppermint]

(Editing this one out.)

[DM Eyeball]

Yes.

The classes that do the stabbing need new abilities or clicky items to be good in the video game.

The team has said that rods were added to be the new clicky items.

However, unlike scrolls, rods are big-heavy and take a lot of room. This means the stabbing classes do not have practical options. Instead they have nothing.

In other words, the update that was made for the stabbers to be big-good in the video game again is actually no-good. Sad!

To fix this, players are asking for a small change that will make the stabbers big-good again. When stabbers are big-good, there are more options in the video game. That is good for roleplay, and it also means stabbers and casters both happy! Everyone smile.

Is that clearer?

Being condescending really doesn't help the argument.

Keep this civil, for the sake of everyone's sanity.

It disappoints me when someone assumes dishonest intent when criticisms are made. No dialogue can be had when people take that point of view.

Making it sound like honest, constructive criticism helps, and makes people listen. I suggest leading by example.

[Peppermint]

You're right. I apologize.

I get frustrated when players argue disingenuously, because it muddies the waters in an otherwise serious discussion. I think we can both agree that the server is more divided than it's ever been, and accusing others of selfishness, dishonesty, or an unwillingness to consider other points of view is not helping. It does nothing to foster communication; it reeks of smug entitlement at best.

However, my tone isn't helping either.

I've edited my original post and will let others carry on the conversation from here.

[NauVaseline]

I really can't add anything more than what Peppermint already has said, other than this is a pretty gnarly slap to ppl who don't have time to grind a lot; and to the economy; and to people who used scribe scroll to propel the economy.

Cortex summarized my thoughts better than I can in the other thread:

RNG loot items, as noted by numerous others, will promote more rungrinding through dungeons for that, more OOC driven competition for dungeons. Before you could buy it from PCs, promote an economy and everything, now you have to pray to RNJesus you find a limited use item to have a chance of fighting a caster. A caster that if they're smart, will wait until they use their limited consumables, disengage, and return fully capable or once their consumable wore off, thus the mundane loses any advantage they had.

...

The reality is that "git gud" players always thrive when the meta shifts poorly, because they know how to exploit it the most. I know many have moved onto mages long ago and will likely remain there.

[Sea Shanties]

When I first heard rods were being introduced I imagined we'd be getting 50 charge or 1/day items, or barring that, some sort of craft wondrous item feat for spellcasters to make rods (at a higher price than scrolls). This is just kind of dissapointing.

Introducing rods that can be crafted with forging or carpentry (not art crafting, make it something wizards probably won't take) and enchanted with one-time use spells by epic casters could allow mundanes access to the lost spells while fostering trade relationships. Just a thought..

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Past situation :

Player with limited time could still have access to UMD in shops with moderate time investment, because 1- they weren't too expensive, and 2- due to their limited time they didn't need them in high quantities as they wouldn't run into situations that require them too often. This allowed people with limited time to have access to the needed tools to survive, while also having enough time to engage in roleplay/story telling that doesn't occur within dungeons.

Current situation :

Player with limited time can't have access to rods with moderate investment, because 1- they'll be expensive due to their rarity (And as seen the loot matrix seems to have some useless rods added, just to make the useful ones even rarer), and 2- the fact is they won't run many dungeons in the limited time they have, if they do they'll have to forsake the chance to RP outside of dungeons in order to go on grind trains that don't even have a good chance of yielding the wanted result.


Right now Arelith, which is a roleplay server is asking you, the player, to go stab things repeatedly until you drop your desired item, rather than roleplay with another player, a mage, to scribe the scrolls for you. And hells, even if you opt for going the second route, to use any scroll worth it you have to invest so much in lore you may as well become Thoramind yourself, which seems to go against the server's main charm.


In the end the problem is player born, mages and clerics complain about people having easy access to UMD scrolls, when they themselves were the ones providing said people with the UMD. Shops were open dedicated to offer to the masses the very tools to fight against their creator, If the issue was that large why did people make scrolls/wands so blatantly to everyone?

I agree its the fault of the ones making the tools available and it would have been cool to see a wizard association rise up ans hunt unlicensed vendors.

That being said, it wasnt all casters complaining. There are people who just dont like the mandatory umd slap on all my characters or to feel like one needs to have a umd/spell battle at all lvl 30 conflicts. I confess the balance demands it and understand martial needs some kind of tool(s) to their disposal. I usually don't play mages and was once upon a time one of those umd complaining people. So it's not people wanting casters to be top tier, its not wanting all our characters feel like they are semi mages at the end of the day.

I have admitted multiple times the only real solutions, while still being balanced, to us thematic snobs would be massive gut wrenching overhauls to the point that it would be a completely new game.

I soom realize we would be better off using nwn 2 as our base for half the changes that would need to happen to get rid of the umd/discipline/tumble skill tax problems and that boat sailed a long time ago.

[Subutai]

I don't have much to add that hasn't already been said better by others, but I wanted to emphasize it, if only to add another number to the people saying it. So many rods being added to the loot matrix makes them a mess for players who need them. Either they have to hope to grind until they get one, or they have to spend a ton of money on one that someone else found and is willing to sell.

In order to replace scrolls in usefulness, or honestly come even close to being relatively as useful, rods need to be craftable, and need to have many more charges. The scrolls that were mostly lost didn't have the kind of constant, frequent use that wands get, so they don't need 50 charges a piece, but I don't think 5-10 charges on craftable rods is unreasonable. If someone is expecting to get into such a big fight that they need to cast Mord's 20 times, they can get 2, 3, or 4 rods, but the rods should at least be good for a fight or two before they're junk.

[Scylon]

I am struggling to find out the point of rods?

If the overall objective was to keep spells in the hands of the learned/magic wielder and thus you made it so only gear was accessed by UMD (which I agreed with), then why would you just make them usable by these rods? This makes no sense to me at all. If you are just moving level 9 magic from scrolls to wands you might as well just left them accessible by scrolls.

[Subutai]

I am struggling to find out the point of rods?

If the overall objective was to keep spells in the hands of the learned/magic wielder and thus you made it so only gear was accessed by UMD (which I agreed with), then why would you just make them usable by these rods? This makes no sense to me at all. If you are just moving level 9 magic from scrolls to wands you might as well just left them accessible by scrolls.

I suspect the idea that it was meant to keep magic out of the hands of mundanes is incorrect at the core. Rather, I think this change was meant to remove the need for UMD to be effective. It's promising, actually, if it's implemented correctly. My biggest issue thus far is that the change was incomplete when released (leading to the enormous outcry) and the thus-far insufficient and probably-still-incomplete completion to the changes.

I'm also somewhat concerned about how the especially-mundane builds that depend on the +6 AC from tumble will fare, assuming other builds no longer need to dip for UMD. It will put those builds at a potentially significant disadvantage as they'll still suffer the same disadvantages from a 3-level dip without gaining much of anything from UMD. It might end up sticking them with a 3-level dip for nothing else but tumble.

[Scylon]

Indeed,

To keep UMD viable there need to be a swath of class based nice gear with a UMD to beat it added to the loot tables.

Right now from what I saw there isn't a huge amount of gear any one class would want to dip for to make it reasonable to do it. I mean the only thing have really seen i would "need" UMD for gear wise is maybe a moonblade?

[Ebonstar]

Honestly it seems like we are just complaining about stuff because we need something to complain about. A 1lb rod is too heavy, too much space, too many quickslots? It's basicly what any wand user has been dealing with forever, and we have survived. Don't like the rods, sell them.

The rods, an unstackable 3 slot item weighing 1lb each, most seeming to have 1 charge of the ones uncovered so far, are the replacement for scrolls. a stackable 1-slot item weighing 0.1lb each, also each with one charge each and not RNG in which one you get.

If you're going to equate things to shut down the people who are somewhat upset at this change, at least equate the right things.

When I first heard rods were being introduced I imagined we'd be getting 50 charge or 1/day items, or barring that, some sort of craft wondrous item feat for spellcasters to make rods (at a higher price than scrolls). This is just kind of dissapointing.

um seen two rods so far yes they are one shot items but weigh under a pound and take same spot as a wand

[Shaeris]