The new rod usability

[-XXX-]

Yes, but how is that any different to an evoker with a gonne?

[Sea Shanties]

Items have objective power, events and quests have subjective ramifications that can be altered with the addition or removal of the actors. Look, I'm not saying I don't trust the DMs, I do. What I'm saying is that distributing objective power through subjective methods is often not a good thing - as much as honest a DM team can be. It's not a criticism or lack of faith about the team, it's a concern about a practice that's often unnecessarily damaging - especially if these items are better than the ones that can be acquired through normal means.

Yeah I have some concerns too. One is DM events can be overcrowded to the point of so much lag you can't see what's going on. Encouraging characters who wouldn't otherwise be involved in the story to show up so they can demand some loot at the end isn't ideal.

Two is DM events and presence favor certain time zones and favor them heavily. DMs even noticing a character also favors those who are "big" personalities and get involved in major population centers and factions (and also those who are somehow able to play a video game for 12 hours a day every day, which I am always astounded by.) Arelith has a lot of players with solid and compelling RP but who aren't as extroverted or who focus on smaller groups and out of the way areas or just try to keep alive places like Sencliff or Darkheart Grove or The Gnomish Grotto that see major lulls in population. The difficulty some people who deserve a 20 or 30 RPR but take forever to get it should show why items that may be essential shouldn't also be only acquired by getting a DMs attention. DMs simply only see a fraction of what goes on and they're going to drift to big and showy RP not something subtle.

I don't distrust DMs either, not at all, but I think this is going to lead to the most popular and well known characters getting the good stuff and those trying to do smaller stories or who don't insert themselves in big events (that they again may not otherwise have any reason to be a part of) missing out. And yes, you could change the way you play if you want a chance to get some special DM loot just like you can play a sure-thing character if you want to raise your RPR, but is that really what we want players to do?

[Peppermint]

A Greater Ruin rod averages 167.5 damage and requires no touch attack to hit.
A gonne averages 105 damage and has a chance to misfire.

[Cortex]

A gonne is also a ranged touch attack prone to fail against high ac and concealment

[Peppermint]

... I just said that, Cortex.

Also, Greater Ruin is an epic spell.

Consider this.

If Greater Ruin is indeed not much better than the alternatives, then it's due for a buff. In which case, we come full circle to having a problem.

[Morgy]

This entire thread makes me sad.

[HA GOTEM I DIDNT ROLL]

make a 20/10 commoner/specialist

have 80 UMD

have 100 hide/ms

have 70 discipline

have 60 spellcraft, saves are effectively 21/20/16 without spellcraft included

have all skills, max intelligence/dex

have 120 tradeskill points and wealth gift with humility token and MoD:



literally a one-man large company that dominates the economy

[-XXX-]

Still seems to me that all this outrage is over the hypothetical possibility of a DM misplacing an item that could essentially be described as a glorified gonne slug.

[Peppermint]

Yeah, epic spells are just like gonne slugs.

That's the reason that UMD was nerfed: to take gonne slugs out of the hands of mundanes. It was too broken.

Look, snark aside, here's the thing:

We also have.

- Hellball
- Epic Mage Armor
- Epic Warding
- Epic Dragon Knight
- Mummy Dust

Do we really want to see these spells in the hands of literally anyone, whether caster, mundane, low level adventurer, or otherwise?

[Volograd]

This entire thread makes me sad.

I agree. It’s not dissimilar to a dogpile on an elementary school playground.

Too little information coupled with too much emotion and speculation.

Don’t get me wrong, there’s a lot of great feedback here and that’s a boon for sure. It’s just that there’s a lot of garbage here too. Sarcasm and snark and rudeness in abundance.

Are we not better than that? Can we perhaps take a step back and chill for a moment? Take the time to really think things through?

[Dr. B]

No. Shock and indignation are the appropriate response to a travesty.

[Adam Antium]

They literally just went over how much better GR is compared to a Gonne, plus the fact that in-lore you're literally wielding the strongest magic available to anybody in the current setting, at maximum power, and literally a level 3 commoner could wield it.

You're not learning to read magic and then reading a scroll with a gimped version of a spell that a wizard made for you, which is what everybody complained about - "omg mundanes reading magic? not on my server. mundanes aren't allowed to learn how to read. you're supposed to be manual labor for casters and protect us from getting hit."

Nobody has a problem with casters dumping into discipline with 3 levels of bard, mind you. Only a problem with "mundanes" learning how to read a ready-made scroll with 3 levels of bard or rogue. Oh wait - actually knockdown was nerfed too! I guess people did have a problem with mages dumping into discipline. So they made it easier for them!

So now instead we get a big hard girthy rod that blasts the strongest magic available at some fool and sends them to the shadow realm. And it'll be given out by DM's for events and activities that they enjoy. Because apparently mundanes aren't supposed to wield magic, so now they get to wield BETTER magic. But only sometimes. And if DM's like you.


My mind. Is. Boggled.

[-XXX-]

- Hellball
- Epic Mage Armor
- Epic Warding
- Epic Dragon Knight
- Mummy Dust

Do we really want to see these spells in the hands of literally anyone, whether caster, mundane, low level adventurer, or otherwise?

In all honesty, I personally still don't see an issue here. It all depends on how rare these items will be, assuming that they're single use.
Epic warding might be a little too much when taking Arelith lvl cap into consideration (as it's unattainable even for dedicated spellcasters), but I wouldn't dismiss even that (and yes, I know that it is bonkers OP).

It's not like a server-wide removal of magical items that turned out to be ultimately detrimental would be unprecedented, so what do we have to worry about?

[Queen Titania]

I was thinking more we'd have our NPCs use them on PC's for a fun suprise secret weapon in their sleeves, because most of our NPCs don't have epic spells pre-set on them. The fun destruction waiting to be had...

[14All]

I was thinking more we'd have our NPCs use them on PC's for a fun suprise secret weapon in their sleeves, because most of our NPCs don't have epic spells pre-set on them. The fun destruction waiting to be had...

DM Control Full Powers, cast Hellball from the radial menu.

[Adam Antium]

I can't wait for my bard to have rods of Epic Mage Armor just waiting for the DM event or mass pvp where I can use them and become utterly invincible. I don't see a problem with winning if you don't see a problem with losing.

[Queen Titania]

I was thinking more we'd have our NPCs use them on PC's for a fun suprise secret weapon in their sleeves, because most of our NPCs don't have epic spells pre-set on them. The fun destruction waiting to be had...

DM Control Full Powers, cast Hellball from the radial menu.

That's another option in a couple of cases, but that's not always immersive or effective option, nor always works for what we're trying to do.

[14All]

I was thinking more we'd have our NPCs use them on PC's for a fun suprise secret weapon in their sleeves, because most of our NPCs don't have epic spells pre-set on them. The fun destruction waiting to be had...

DM Control Full Powers, cast Hellball from the radial menu.

That's another option in a couple of cases, but that's not always immersive or effective option, nor always works for what we're trying to do.

It is the same thing as with a rod, barring the potential of hotbarring an emote to be said before/during casting to show what is happening, as is often done in the case of NPCs casting spells they wouldn't otherwise know.

Sorry for that. I wanted to be helpful and point out what you may not have realized you could do.

[Eters]

Personally I just don't understand the direction this update is taking, and would welcome the vision of the creator to be told to the playerbase. Because it doesn't take much to see that Arelith is confused, it doesn't know what it wants, it doesn't want mundanes to use magic from scrolls, but gives them tools that do exactly that, just in a way that is less accessible and more power-grindy.

I believe that once we start talking about characters in epic levels, they're no longer considered mundane by any means, just a small peak at neverwinter's night description of the epic "fighter" which is basically the basic mundane sword wielder :

"Having advanced from the ranks of seasoned warriors, the epic fighter is the true master of warfare. More than a mere sword-swinger, the epic fighter knows how to defeat his opponents in any arena. Though his journey to achieve this goal has been long and hard, the epic fighter is just starting out on another path - a fledgling in the realm of gods and other powerful beings. "

At this level range in Arelith, every character wields weapons that put to shame some of the weapons wielded by divinities, their HP pool is huge, the gear they wear is so enhanced they may as well just all be immortal. With every single adventurer walking with gear pushing 2 stats, 4 skills and a save , is the usage of scrolls really that odd? With the accessibility to portals at every corner, stones that alter the very climate of the island just laying in the open, doorways to the shadow plane in every corner, planar walking available through various, numerous places.

Does the fact that all those that choose to travel through this world, face dragons/fiends/liches in the daily, and climb to the height of power, have knowledge of enough arcane to read scrolls infused with a mage's knowledge and power, and simply unleash that already prepared, saved power within the scrolls that immersion breaking?

What plus does the rods add to the world, that the scrolls didn't provide? Where is the change in the narrative, because I've yet to see anything other than making it a pain in the rear for players, rather than characters, to acquire such items. Rods are there to remplace the scrolls, so why remove scrolls in the first place? Rods will eventually become available as much as the scrolls were, and we will return to the start of the issue, mundanes having access to magical abilities. Isn't that the core of what this update seeks to change?

[Queen Titania]

DM Control Full Powers, cast Hellball from the radial menu.

That's another option in a couple of cases, but that's not always immersive or effective option, nor always works for what we're trying to do.

It is the same thing as with a rod, barring the potential of hotbarring an emote to be said before/during casting to show what is happening, as is often done in the case of NPCs casting spells they wouldn't otherwise know.

Sorry for that. I wanted to be helpful and point out what you may not have realized you could do.

This actually doesn't always work with epic spells via DM Full Control on an NPC the last time I checked, so this isn't true. (Probably a minor bug).

[14All]

That's another option in a couple of cases, but that's not always immersive or effective option, nor always works for what we're trying to do.

It is the same thing as with a rod, barring the potential of hotbarring an emote to be said before/during casting to show what is happening, as is often done in the case of NPCs casting spells they wouldn't otherwise know.

Sorry for that. I wanted to be helpful and point out what you may not have realized you could do.

This actually doesn't always work with epic spells via DM Full Control on an NPC the last time I checked, so this isn't true.

It has never failed for me, but I won't argue with a goddess. (Polite edit: I spent a lot of time on casting and training others how to cast/spam Epic Spells, so I must be a very minor bug to have never happened during those sessions. Not to say it doesn't exist, just to say I must have gotten lucky.) Sorry for derailing.

The continued gist of rods is that they (and other mentioned loot, such as throwable weapons with the ability to dispel/desummon) are meant to replace something, but not actually, and that the server creative mind wants to move forward with something, but we don't know what yet. Nothing is legitimately set in stone and everything is up in the air, so the spoken majority is confused and upset and the spoken minority is either comfortable with change or are partially/fully unaware of the actual mechanics and economic value behind the changes.

Am I understanding the general idea behind this thread and the other handful, or am I still off? I'm trying to get a grasp on the situation here myself.

[ltlukoziuz]

The continued gist of rods is that they (and other mentioned loot, such as throwable weapons with the ability to dispel/desummon) are meant to replace something, but not actually, and that the server creative mind wants to move forward with something, but we don't know what yet. Nothing is legitimately set in stone and everything is up in the air, so the spoken majority is confused and upset and the spoken minority is either comfortable with change or are partially/fully unaware of the actual mechanics and economic value behind the changes.

Am I understanding the general idea behind this thread and the other handful, or am I still off? I'm trying to get a grasp on the situation here myself.

Words are Ork's, who now has stepped down at least for some time, but this is the big picture, to which I fully agree, edited, as it was in a long chat like fashion.

Here's the truth — Arelith for a long, long time was mechancially illiterate.
There were pockets of people with know-how, but by and large that information was inaccessible
Now? The information is freely given here. We have a lot of players coming to learn how to play this game - and why wouldn't they? We all want to be good, and useful to our parties in PvE. And, some of us want to be competitive & useful in PvP, which is also fine.

We got a little zealous and started labeling people as "bad", which may be warranted since a lot of people would come in here and spout false things (LtL's note: more often, misleading/misunderstood/ill informed things, not knowing Arelith's changes or expecting PnP in a video game) but I think you got a group of people that hear "bad" and think — "I'm not bad, I'm better. I don't dip, I don't dump skills, I don't do X"
Now, you also have the opposite of that where people think "I'm great. I dip, I dump skills, I'm the best character mechanically"
but, you got two groups of people zealously mobilizing for what exactly? who knows.

What matters is the roleplay — you can be good at building and be a great roleplayer. You could be bad at building and be a great roleplayer.

Being good at this game gives you more opportunities - and I don't think anyone can really deny that.

When you hear us lamenting this nerf, it's mostly because everything -worked-.

Now? It doesn't work.

Giving access to every character to carry around WoF rods is genuinely bad because the dip costs all builds something - CL, +4 weapons, etc.
Now, the greatest cost is the 33 skill points.

really this won't effect people who are mechanically savvy, except for the ones that don't have time to cultivate RNGods.

[14All]

Accurate. Thanks for sharing!

[Apokriphos]

I trust Irongron and the DMs to keep extremely powerful wands like greater ruin extremely rare or nonexistent. They could always make it so a character can only have one but adding a unique tag if there is a concern of dungeon grinding for mechanical advantage. Although there was a lot I didnt like in the most recent update, I think having faith in the vision Irongron has for the server while continuing to offer feedback in a polite and constructive manner is the best way to move forward. A lot of people in this thread and the other one have acted otherwise, and I dont believe that behavior will get them what they want.

Regarding balance between spellcasting classes, their summons, and melee classes:

Summons - Reducing the spell resistance and the will save on summons so they can be banished and dismissed with scrolls (like around will save of 12 or so) could be a simple solution.

Access for melee to dispels - I like the essence suggestion of dispelling viewtopic.php?f=15&t=25807

I also think that melee characters should get some additions such as feats akin to the new spells available to caster classes. I wrote about this in my suggestion - viewtopic.php?f=15&t=25774

Irongron already said things aren't planning to be reverted. Letting the server settle into the new changes and proposing new ideas to fix percieved gaps is the best solution for all of us going forward.

[Scylon]

I still think Rods are kind of stupid reading these posts.

If this point was to separate casters from physical warriors by limited access to scrolls, then why would you just give them rods? It makes no sense at all to me. Especially with you now even expanding the arsenal they have access to.

This actually in the end after some time will make melee fighters stronger then ever because they don't need to dip to access these spells now. Sure it is painful now, but give it time and once they stock pile enough it will be back to as it was but worse.

They do need tools to fight casters, but if this is the solution you might as well revert the change.