Underdark races

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Skullcat
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Underdark races

Post by Skullcat » Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:47 pm

Image

Extremely hard difficult challenge: Avoid bringing up outcasts.

Currently, the UD races are laughable, and in the weirdest position. Some of their stat-blocks are strange, and foreign. Then have no added bonus- or anything. Most of them are too familiar, and yet have an ECL slapped on it. Two races in question are too similar (Kobolds, and Goblins in this case).

In one case, there's also a question of ECL. How is ECL calculated. Determined, and factored? Stat distribution? Perks? Benefits?
One major glancing factor is Orog-Gnoll comparison. Gnoll is almost far superior due to having two feats, innate ability, yet is classified as +1 ECL while Orog have just one feat, +1 AC, and Fire/Cold 10% immunity ontop but is a +2 ECL because they have 2 extra stat over the negative.

How does this factor, I don't know. But there's one glaring. If we were to compare these races with surface. The ECL calculation is stretched.

Wild Dwarf is 0 ECL, have almost the same statblock as Shield Dwarf- with exception that they get increased saves against poisons, diseases, Use poison feats, 15% fire immunity, and doesn't leave footprints and is capable of -track. (Edited)

Or how a Wild Elf get ALL of the Moon Elf, plus TWO feats (Trackless steps, and Toughness) for FREE at NO cost to ECL. ALSO A +1 AC ON TOP.

Case-by-case. Underdark need a big buff. And also separate Kobold/goblin for god's sake. They're literally almost the same thing.


It's about time we stop caring about the 'MUH UMD' problems, and start thinking about the glaring issues.

So What is ECL? What exactly is ECL factored? It's clear it doesn't even have an actual focus. All races are weirdly judged- and are given weird ups- and downs.

TL:DR - Surface races have more advantages compared to Underdark.
Last edited by Skullcat on Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:40 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Seekeepeek
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Re: Underdark races

Post by Seekeepeek » Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:00 pm

"how Ogre cannot wield a large weapon, and a shield. "

(only the Forrest ogre model have a visual shield, the other models don't display a shield, even if they have a tower shield and a large weapon in their inventory slots) also Ogre can wield a large weapon, and a shield. in fact they can't use tiny weapons, such as daggers at all. so you been miss informed there iam afraid.

Orog have the best craft able weapons and armors in the game.

Wild Dwarf is an award race, so it should get some perks.

most of the Underdark races are superior to those on the surface. perhaps except your wild elf.

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Skullcat
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Re: Underdark races

Post by Skullcat » Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:03 pm

Apparently it requires a relog to be able to use large wep/shield combo on PGCC. Edited main post to reflect on that.

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Memelord
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Re: Underdark races

Post by Memelord » Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:48 pm

Wild elf is inferior in the current build of Arelith - Wood Elf and Sun Elf are among the strongest races in the game atm, on par with Humans and Dwarves. All four of these races just mechanically overshadow basically anything the UD has to offer with significantly lower ECL and far more flexibility in choices - UD races only exceed them in very niche roles.

malcolm_mountainslayer
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Re: Underdark races

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:07 pm

Its hard to make goblins and kobolds very different withour making them something they are not:

Weak, agile small crestures.

Its why they get nuance differences like free poison use or dragon disciple, different lore etc.

Orogs get better equip than gnolls and can make really tanky warlocks/sorcerors.

Sea Shanties
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Re: Underdark races

Post by Sea Shanties » Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:46 pm

I think it would be funny to see goblins given a constitution boost and maybe even disease immunity. They're the cockroaches of Faerun and live in disgusting conditions.

Orog, yeah, you can make an amazing blackguard but the stats are otherwise pretty restrictive. They could really stand to be a 1 ECL race-- or just keep 2 ECL and let them pick a stat gift.

Duergar are extremely strong and perhaps need to be to entice people to play them in numbers the Underdark needs.

Deep gnomes desperately need options besides +2 wis, +2 dex. They're supposedly to be fantastic illusionists and should be able to start with +2 int.

I think the UD could use more races without charisma penalties and perhaps even with bonuses.

But you can make every race superior and I still think you'll see lots of humans. One thing about the UD is the race you play dictates everything, much more so than the surface. Humans seem to be able to associate with everybody, other races inherently have more limited options.

Subutai
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Re: Underdark races

Post by Subutai » Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:27 pm

For Orog, keep in mind that bastard sword/katana is already on par with scimitar for damage output. Less crit range, but the extra damage statistically makes up for it and makes it about even. Orogs not only get free bastard sword proficiency, but also get exclusive access to a really fantastic bastard sword (+4, +2 bludgeoning, keen), meaning that Orogs get one of the best melee weapons in the game.

TimeAdept
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Re: Underdark races

Post by TimeAdept » Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:05 pm

Gnoll is worse than Orog in every single way because losing INT is crippling, especially in today's Lore-must have meta. Orogs make stellar divine builds. Fighters. Bards. Spellswords. Barbarians. Palemasters. Really anything not explicitly dex or wis focused. Gnolls are really *only* good for druid, or for two hand barbarian style builds, because the combination of INT and CHA penalty is crippling when your name isn't "Free ambidexterity horc". Compare a Gnoll Fiendlock with an Orog, or Drow, or even Svirf, or Goblin, or Kobold, or Hobgoblin, or Derro, and you'll really see why Gnoll especially suffers. Hobgob or Derro or Duergar barbarians will regularly outperform a Gnoll. Gnoll is straight up one of the worse races in the UD.

Orog are a stellar race even before you figure in the bonkers race only gear. They should not be given a stat gift. It will result in a +4 STR/++2 CON +2 CHA race, nearly every single time.

Duergar are hyper powerful is any non-cha class, any role makable in NWN, and are better than a great deal of surface races.

Hobgoblin and Derro are both extremely powerful, with Hobgoblin being better due to not having the underground penalties of a Derro and no Wis penalty making them more flexible. Any race that gets +CON, +another stat, and can still choose a gift is inherently extremely powerful and a top tier race.
I think the UD could use more races without charisma penalties and perhaps even with bonuses.
This is why I really railed for Troglodytes to be made +CON -WIS rather than +CON -CHA when they went in, but I got shot down.

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Skullcat
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Re: Underdark races

Post by Skullcat » Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:58 pm

According to D&D e3.5 monster manual. Goblin should have negative CHA instead of STR.

My only answer to this, when I was discussing about how to separate Kobold/Goblin- was this: Image

NauVaseline
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Re: Underdark races

Post by NauVaseline » Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:06 am

When Orog was designed, iirc the gift system was still 3 gifts and ECL didn't neuter your gift choices.

These implementations of various subraces were also designed by different people.

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Skullcat
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Re: Underdark races

Post by Skullcat » Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:07 am

NauVaseline wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:06 am
When Orog was designed, iirc the gift system was still 3 gifts and ECL didn't neuter your gift choices.

These implementations of various subraces were also designed by different people.
Huh. That's fascinating information to have. So if we were to look on today's now since ECL now factors gifts. Then lot of the races would've been just dramatically lowered ECL overalls.

I've done- and conducted whatever I could figure out was ECL Formula. There was very vague informations, and most of the ECL I could get off on, was from gift-category of wikipedia. I'll share in a second.

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Skullcat
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Re: Underdark races

Post by Skullcat » Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:10 am

Image


Take some serious consideration that this is not an end-all, be-all ECL calculation. There's some errors, and mistakes that'll be noticed quite easily on some aspect. But these are all based on guessworks, and figuring out where X is Z.

Archnon
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Re: Underdark races

Post by Archnon » Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:21 am

I made a similar argument here about Svirf's specifically:

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=24780

But I agree that the whole thing needs looked at again. I mean, we have had some recent nerfs of classes and boosting of others and it has everyone talking balance issues. And that is all well and good, but in the end every class has a weakness that someone can tap into either on their own or with a team. That is how we play.

However, imbalance in the races can serioussly hamper RP opportunities. Basically, players won't play a race that is hobbled by a bad stat set and high ECL. Perhaps the races are designed to discourage people to play to limit the population, however, that would be better achieved with awards. What happens instead is that races just get left behind. Svirf's are the case in point. Not a lot of build potential and it basically collapsed Grotto RP. Before they last got Nerfed (many years ago I am told), the Grotto was a hub of player RP and you still see the remnants, Now it is dead because no one wants to play a broken race.

I think the Dev's should seriously consider rebalancing all the races as far as ECL to try and breath some new life into some of these communities and create some new player opportunities. .

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