A Wild, name Idea

[Terenfel]

hey, wild idea.. what if everyone had just blank names, but you where able to nickname everyone you meet? so you wont know someones name, or maybe even later their last name before they told you, and you could change their name from your end.

Disguises would just make you name blank again, and people could name that disguise. and the same name would show for each time you used the same disguise (much the same way as you load a outfit to save and store the disguise).. when you see though a disguise you would recognize all the old names you given to that person (the "true" name and all disguised names) you had for that person and their disguises.

[Irongron]

Well, you've touched upon an idea I've personally been pushing for, and has divided the development team....

The idea (though slightly more complex) is this -

Characters would have blank names until they have reached a certain level of interaction with one-another/extended observation, at which point he name's would be permanently revealed. I believe this would incentivise interaction, and allow those that want to remain a low profile for rogue/thief RP to remain unknown if they choose to.

For obvious reasons if this was introduced it would only affect new characters, as we wouldn't want existing characters to suddenly forget who everyone was.

It is possible, and I believe would be a big improvement, though as I say while some on the team were very enthusiastic, others considered it too great a change to the Arelith environment, and for that reason I didn't move forward with the idea.

Moving this to feedback for player discussion, though it likely will not happen due to it being such a radical departure.

[Bunny]

I played a server where every character was renamed with a descriptive phrase

A tall elf
A surely dwarf

Made for better role play short term but long term you could change who you were constantly.

Im guessing it would undermine a lot of the by name mechanics currently in game.

[TheFox]

I think the heart of this suggestion is about the Disguise functionality so I'll just toss my two cents on it and apologize for hijacking a bit.

The Disguise tag gets metagamed constantly.

It's because it has (disguised) on the end of it.

Honestly I think that's the core of the issue here; the disguise system is great, works great, and has allowed exceptionally entertaining characters like Neli Ore (for instance) to roam around doing cool things. However, that tag outs you OOCly to everyone you meet and flagging you for RP that, intentional or not, can end very poorly and sometimes, I'm aware, results in reports, which would be unnecessary if this OOC flag weren't there. Some people put more scrutiny into people who are disguised. Scrutiny they wouldn't put on someone who looked exactly the same standing two feet away, and the only difference is that tag.

That's not nice, and not being nice is against the rules - that's metagaming. However, if you report them, that's more paperwork, and someone who perhaps didn't mean to do anything wrong (good faith) is now under the microscope for a problem that seems eminently preventable by a shift in design.

I understand that this is necessary on some level to distinguish people under disguise, but if we're talking about blanking people's names and writing whatever we want in that blank once we meet them - "Frank", "Idiot", "Joe" - we might as well just solve the problem in a much more straightforwards manner by allowing people with a high enough bluff skill to drop the disguise tag (like how 'disguised slave' can become just 'disguised', which is a pretty blatant ooc acknowledgement that people read that tag and that it has meaning), or getting rid of it altogether.

[The GrumpyCat]

Well, you've touched upon an idea I've personally been pushing for, and has divided the development team....

The idea (though slightly more complex) is this -

Characters would have blank names until they have reached a certain level of interaction with one-another/extended observation, at which point he name's would be permanently revealed. I believe this would incentivise interaction, and allow those that want to remain a low profile for rogue/thief RP to remain unknown if they choose to.

For obvious reasons if this was introduced it would only affect new characters, as we wouldn't want existing characters to suddenly forget who everyone was.

It is possible, and I believe would be a big improvement, though as I say while some on the team were very enthusiastic, others considered it too great a change to the Arelith environment, and for that reason I didn't move forward with the idea.

Moving this to feedback for player discussion, though it likely will not happen due to it being such a radical departure.

The main issue that immedatly comes to mind here is issues of reporting.

'Hay, I was just pvped without rp in Cordor!'
''Who did it?'
... 'I have no idea.'

Just to use a simple example.

[TheFox]

Additional late thought:

How about instead of revealing who that person is (This person is Neli Ore!) we instead reveal that "This person is wearing a disguise!" with a high enough spot vs. bluff revealing "This person is Neli Ore in disguise!"

This would solve some things I think.

[goblinhero]

A few loose thoughts:

- The starting with blank description sounds like a cool idea. A little addition could be that whenever they say their name, everyone in earshot gets that name set for them. This could also lead to fun interactions such as "Wait.. the other day you were Frank, now your name is Earnest?!"
- A text with "You were PK'ed by <playername> at 11:38 - Dec 12th 2019" (important bit is that it is playername - not character name) could maybe solve/eleviate the griefing problem that GrumpyCat mentioned
- If the current disguise thing is kept - maybe disallow naming yourself as a character name that exists could counter griefing as well (the whole "giving-another-player-a-bad-name"-problem) - thus we can get rid of the (disguised) tag

[Kalopsia]

The main issue that immedatly comes to mind here is issues of reporting.

'Hay, I was just pvped without rp in Cordor!'
''Who did it?'
... 'I have no idea.'

Just to use a simple example.

What if, instead of a blank name, a character's unique number in the database was displayed?
People would realize that a number cannot be the char's name, and thus know their character does not know the name yet.

[MissEvelyn]

Regarding the (disguised) tag, I, too, believe it should be removed. However, players are not ready for that kind of power.

Perhaps it should be something that could be removed with enough bluff/perform AND with a minimum RPR of 20. I'm not even sure that would be enough, but it would be a start.

[Anomandaris]

Disguise tags get metagamed hard all the time. Whether it's a quick examine in passing or changing the way you interact w/ and rp with that PC. I think the disguise system is pretty much perfect as it is now, barring the tag visibility.

I don't think a higher perform/bluff to remove the tag makes sense either because the metagming issue is OOC. I shouldn't be able to metagame your disguise -period- regardless of how good your skill is.

The reality is if you remove the tags, it will enforce more authentic RP. You'll have to pay attention to their clothes, bits of skin poking through outfits, habits, people they're hanging out with etc. This is really cool. The downside is it will create more abuse because well, we're people.

One possible solution is to move the "Disguised" tag into the examine interface so it's not floating above everyone's head. It should still be considered OOC info, but at least it's not begging everyone to examine or walk over and be suspicious. Seems like a reasonable middle ground.

[JustMonika]

I would really want the server to trial a period of no "Disguise" tag and see how well it was handled.

If we can cope, great.
If not - Back to the drawing board?


I do really like the orginal suggestion though. I'd love to label and be dependent on labelling other PCs. Sounds like an utter nightmare to impliment though.

[D4wN]

As someone who choses common sense and passion for RP over mechanics I would never use the disguise tag against people. Even if I do break a disguise I make a judgement call based on the person’s RP. But there are many who don’t. And players, especially evil ones on surface and good ones in the UD get this taken advantage off. Personally I believe the disguise tag breaks the opportunity for cool RP and story development. Some people may even spam the examine button until they finally roll a good set of dice. I love player conflict, player development and the opportunity to be surprised by characters from opposite alignment. Especially if they go through the effort of changing their descriptions and change outfits each time.

In terms of the hidden names, that would be a welcome change for someone like me who has a bad memory. I can never remember who I’ve actually met IG or not when I’ve not interacted with them much. Maybe there is some way that allows you to report a player’s user name or a number as someone mentioned. Or DMs still have all the visibility and what not to be able to tell who did a naughty thing. I’ve also had people RP they would introduce themselves with different names. Either to be dodgy or just as a nickname. Either way it’s difficult to remember multiple names for 1 player too.

Just my two cents, I would love for at least the disguise tag to be removed and even for the cool down timer to extend before you can try and break it again. I mean, if the player uses silly things like the same language, emotes, style and what not that might make you go... hey... wait a minute... that’s different. But I’m sure that’d be really hard to do. If you still want people to be able to see if someone is disguised maybe add it in their description down the bottom. Like pirates and outcasts.

[Nevrus]

I think individually naming every person you meet would get real old, real fast.

I am, however, in favor of both removing the (Disguised) tag and removing the Disguise disclaimer on examine unless the disguise is broken. This is the fairest we can be to our would-be disguise artists to let them do what they're after without getting meta'd. More people exploit the system to identify disguised players than abuse it for OOC nefariousness.

Now, there also would need to be safeguards put in place for OOC nefariousness. Firstly, implement a yellowtext message when a Disguised player sends a PM that "You have been messaged by a disguised player." This prevents DM impersonation and impersonation of OOC friends for bad reasons.

Second, implement a player name output for ALL pvp kills where another player kills you. Not their true character name, but their account name. It should display after showing up in the fugue in yellow text. This will better enable reporting of breaches of pvp rules, while being too late to meta an in-progress encounter for legitimate interactions. This is useful for more than disguise kills, because if you don't get a good look at someone's name before they explode you, reporting is hard.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Well, you've touched upon an idea I've personally been pushing for, and has divided the development team....

The idea (though slightly more complex) is this -

Characters would have blank names until they have reached a certain level of interaction with one-another/extended observation, at which point he name's would be permanently revealed. I believe this would incentivise interaction, and allow those that want to remain a low profile for rogue/thief RP to remain unknown if they choose to.

For obvious reasons if this was introduced it would only affect new characters, as we wouldn't want existing characters to suddenly forget who everyone was.

It is possible, and I believe would be a big improvement, though as I say while some on the team were very enthusiastic, others considered it too great a change to the Arelith environment, and for that reason I didn't move forward with the idea.

Moving this to feedback for player discussion, though it likely will not happen due to it being such a radical departure.

The main issue that immedatly comes to mind here is issues of reporting.

'Hay, I was just pvped without rp in Cordor!'
''Who did it?'
... 'I have no idea.'

Just to use a simple example.

I think you bring up a legit problem if we allowed blank names, i also would be concerned if it made disguises pointless.

Also Grumpy cat, i am hoping you could clarify something for me while we are discussing disguises.


When you disguise you get a little text saying "you should only be using this when your character is actaully trying to disguise themselves" yet I see all the time people use it for flavour appearances like being a waitress, etc.

I for one completely agree with latter use but wanted to be sure arelith policy was cool with it. Back before EE days people would spam disguises all the time sometimes often for piety so you had nicknames and descriptions all over the place with disguise tag including people disguising as themselves. This made it harder metagame disguise tags because more half the people around you were walking around with them.

[The GrumpyCat]

Basicaly the -disguise should really only be used to either
a) Disguise yourself (pretending to be a persona you are not)
or b) Conceal yourself.

I guess that there's a few wierd edge cases where the 'disguise' is almost an alter ego- but for the most part -disguise should not be used for giving yourself titles or descriptives.

The reason being that piercing a -disguise doesn't just revel the identity, it reveals that the person IS DISGUISED. That they are hiding their identity. If everyone is using it for descriptions, then you've no way of knowing when someone is being shifty, or when they're just trying to make it more noticable that they're 'A waitress.'

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Basicaly the -disguise should really only be used to either
a) Disguise yourself (pretending to be a persona you are not)
or b) Conceal yourself.

I guess that there's a few wierd edge cases where the 'disguise' is almost an alter ego- but for the most part -disguise should not be used for giving yourself titles or descriptives.

The reason being that piercing a -disguise doesn't just revel the identity, it reveals that the person IS DISGUISED. That they are hiding their identity. If everyone is using it for descriptions, then you've no way of knowing when someone is being shifty, or when they're just trying to make it more noticable that they're 'A waitress.'

You know from context. The waitress behind tje bar counter os clearly a waitress. It seems norm in these circumstances.

You also know context if they have different outfit. Like if marcus disguises himself as marcus and then doesn't change his clothes, you dont need to make spot check to figure out he is still Marcus.

Anways, i think you amswered my question. Though "should" and is "only allowed for said use" can often be the difference between a shadow rule a long term clear understanding.

[Might-N-Magic]

I used to play a RP MUD where when you made your character, you gave a short description like "Tall, red-spiky haired" and it would show you as "a tall, red-spiky haired drow" until you RP'd and introduced yourself, then the other people meeting you as you told your name would use a command like -identify gilbert tall, red-spiky haired, which would then show you as Gilbert all the time. It was cool.

[The GrumpyCat]

You know from context. The waitress behind tje bar counter os clearly a waitress. It seems norm in these circumstances.

Indeed- and that's why you don't need to use -disguise as a descriptor.

To be more clear.

Tony, who is a brand new Cordor guard decides that he wants to make his 'guardyness' more obvious by using the disguise tag, and this uses it to describe himself as 'Cordor Guard.' He of course wears the guard uniform.

Jon, the wicked sneak thief from the Guild of Thieves, wants to infiltrate the guard to learn their secrets. He also disguises himself as 'Cordor Guard'

Lucy is a luitennent in the Cordor Guard. She spies both Tony and Jon, she breaches both of their disguises but has never met either of them. As far as she is concerned, she now knows that BOTH Tony and Jon are disguised. As far as she is concerned, both should now be arrested.

[NauVaseline]

I would really want the server to trial a period of no "Disguise" tag and see how well it was handled.

If we can cope, great.
If not - Back to the drawing board?


I do really like the orginal suggestion though. I'd love to label and be dependent on labelling other PCs. Sounds like an utter nightmare to impliment though.

+1

[Player_01]

It really breaks the idea behind disguise. There are characters who build their roleplay around disguise and that is what makes them unique in their own way. Removing names, will allow a wider audence without any skill investments to have different identies and etc. How would you manage to disguise as someone else with such system? What would be a difference between 0 bluff person wearing Cordor guard armor (who was only hanging around Skal before) and 80 Bluff Spy doing the same? Mechanically there will be no difference, and it destroys the benefit of high Bluff and ruins hours people put into leveling and developing their toons around such concept.

What I think is that we need a small rework around disguise system. I suggest removing the tag. Why? Because there is a great potential for people to metagame the way that can't be proven. Example:

1) John disguises as a member of hostile faction. He chills around their base to hear about their secrets.
2) Hostile faction members fail to break the disguise but they see the tag. Faction members don't want to be punished for metagaming.
3) If there was no (disguise) tag, faction members would discuss their important plans, but since they see the tag, they prefer to spend hours talking about cheap Cordorian beer and ladies of the night. RP opportunity ruined. Metagaming can't be proven. The system is flawed on so many levels.

I am aware of reasons why removing tag may sound harmful. Like identifing rulebreakers. There are potential problems to deal with, but current system is hurting our roleplay experience on daily basis. There are so many opportunities that break against the gap of exploitable system.

I am a developer myself (not trying to look smart, never worked with NWN's scripting), Arelith devs are more experienced and short on time, I understand and respect that, but I belive there are simple solutions that won't take much time to implement to fight rule breakers. It may be Disguise Log that saves time interval in which person used the disguise and what name he/she used. It can be scripted by simply adding a function to "-disguise" that adds information to a text file once used. As example it may add: %playerName%, %timeWhenUsed%, %disguiseName%, and when player undisguises him/herself it adds %playerName%, %timeWhenRemoved% to the text file. There are many other easy to implement systems that won't interact with other parts of code much and will help to keep a track on wrongdoers.

So you'll have to ask people to mention the time range in their reports and check out if rulebreaker was disguised or not. There was an argument that OOC reputation of the player who rulebreaker disguised as will be hurt anyway. Well, breaking rules while disguised as someone else should be punished severely (in my opinion), so few will abuse that. And when such occasions found, Team could use announcements in discords, forum announcements to make it clear that player is not guilty. Considering small playerbase, these news will spread rapidly. And that is actually lesser evil than daily used disguise that is flawed towards metagaming.

Ah, and that would be cool if players with high bluff could switch player model heads, to close the gap for MG even more, but that's a final touch of course.

[Terenfel]

Well, you've touched upon an idea I've personally been pushing for, and has divided the development team....

The idea (though slightly more complex) is this -

Characters would have blank names until they have reached a certain level of interaction with one-another/extended observation, at which point he name's would be permanently revealed. I believe this would incentivise interaction, and allow those that want to remain a low profile for rogue/thief RP to remain unknown if they choose to.

For obvious reasons if this was introduced it would only affect new characters, as we wouldn't want existing characters to suddenly forget who everyone was.

It is possible, and I believe would be a big improvement, though as I say while some on the team were very enthusiastic, others considered it too great a change to the Arelith environment, and for that reason I didn't move forward with the idea.

Moving this to feedback for player discussion, though it likely will not happen due to it being such a radical departure.

The main issue that immedatly comes to mind here is issues of reporting.

'Hay, I was just pvped without rp in Cordor!'
''Who did it?'
... 'I have no idea.'

Just to use a simple example.

no, it would be the one i have named "the one that attacked me" until i find a better name for him.

[Terenfel]

I used to play a RP MUD where when you made your character, you gave a short description like "Tall, red-spiky haired" and it would show you as "a tall, red-spiky haired drow" until you RP'd and introduced yourself, then the other people meeting you as you told your name would use a command like -identify gilbert tall, red-spiky haired, which would then show you as Gilbert all the time. It was cool.

would be really cool a command if you send it as a tell to that person it would change their name for your character just like, -name "that guy who sold me a pair of boots." until you figure out his real name and can name him that.. i for one would not think this would "get old real fast" i think i would be amazing, also for remembering who you have meet and such and in all make the world of arelith a lot more realistic.

[Griefmaker]

I used to play a RP MUD where when you made your character, you gave a short description like "Tall, red-spiky haired" and it would show you as "a tall, red-spiky haired drow" until you RP'd and introduced yourself, then the other people meeting you as you told your name would use a command like -identify gilbert tall, red-spiky haired, which would then show you as Gilbert all the time. It was cool.

would be really cool a command if you send it as a tell to that person it would change their name for your character just like, -name "that guy who sold me a pair of boots." until you figure out his real name and can name him that.. i for one would not think this would "get old real fast" i think i would be amazing, also for remembering who you have meet and such and in all make the world of arelith a lot more realistic.

I am completely on board for an idea like this too.

And to add to it, if a person is named "IlikeweirdnamesbecauseIamanunmanlyelf" and they identify as "Sam", they can perhaps do something like send a tell with "-name Sam" and cause it to show up like that to the player who they send a tell to.

Or better yet, just have the -name command use the ranges of whispers, speaking, yelling and any in the specific radius will hear and have the person's name marked henceforth.

[Terenfel]

and if you later want to send a speedy, scry or what not on the one you know as "Sam" that would just be the name you used for it. would also mean you cannot scry or send hins to someone you have not yet named.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

I honestly think all this thought going into an OOC tag is more than necessary. It's a visual aid to help us understand who is who, not a "hi my name is" badge. While on paper ideas like this seem cool, some of the examples made are from games with starkly different gameplay. What might work for a MUD may not work for a visual isometric CRPG. I realize my comment is probably not very helpful, I'm attempting to play devil's advocate. I think the system is fine as is, but the concern is certainly valid. Metagaming will never be completely absent, and trying to script around player behavior may be a bandage job at best.