Big Update feedback - A rogue's perspective

[Vespidae]

Hello! I play a rogue, Duster the Slave, and I'd like to say how the big update has affected my character. Some of it is good, some less so, but since people investing in rogue levels seem to be fewer than other mundanes dipping into it, I thought I'd give my two spiders.

- Knockdown. This is great. I don't have to consider Discipline at every step of my build now, which I frankly hated. I still think KD is overpowered, but it's no longer So Much Better Than Every Other Feat.

- Disarm. Have never been disarmed so idk. Moreso than KD, it's a bad situation that I can at least escape from.

- UMD. The updated skill reqs for UMD are good in that more of an investment is required from people who would dip into Rogue or Bard, but for those classes it does stymie them a bit. But not much. Five points between friends isn't much but this does hurt rogue-invested builds more than dip builds.

- Lore. UMD was meant to be one of the big weapons in the rogue's arsenal, but I guess they didn't really account for how often people would dip. The upper levels of scrolls are now beyond the reach of a rogue who doesn't specialise heavily in Lore. This means that some dungeons are much harder to solo without elementals, as rogues aren't a great frontline class, even with Uncanny Dodge. the lower level summons that a rogue, who takes lore as a skill but doesn't kit out for it, can summon, are not much use against the lvl 14+ writ dungeons.
I honestly don't know how I feel about this. It makes things harder, but it has encouraged me to go along with parties who, in Andunor, are usually up for it. In that sense it's a positive, on the other hand I find I'm idling more when there aren't people around to do writs with.

- weapon feats. I'm glad they got merged into types - I liked the dynamic of the rapier/dagger rogue bonus, but it did make me feel compelled to go for those weapons rather than, say, two hatchets or a rapier and a shortsword depending on how I felt. Now that the rapier/dagger skills are basically covered by one skill (except for WMs I guess) I have more flexibility.

Overall, this has changed my rogue output from:
"I can summon greater elementals but I need to dip into DISC constantly"
to
"I can summon spiders sometimes but I can focus on my Rogue skills."

If I were to ask for anything (which I might, after consideration, in the right bit of the forum) it would be to make KD even less of an issue for rogue-majority level builds (defensive roll triggers once a day to avoid a KD, uses up your roll for the day, only with 2/3 levels in Rogue). I'd also maybe suggest cut them a little slack for scroll use, but probably not that AND the KD suggestion.

Generally, I like the changes.

[Scylon]

Your consensus feels fair. I think for PvP KD is in a nice place, but PvE I think the restriction needs to be removed.

As a new BG regarding the UMD/Lore Change:

I am leveling and investing in Lore and UMD (for my Dip). I was lucky enough to find +5 lore ring, so right now I can get 19 lore unbuffed. I think this is good as this puts an end to (or makes it hard with out outside help item wise) to power level with max level summons as you just can't summon them now.

As I get stronger however I do feel the lore lagging behind a bit though.

[Sea Shanties]

The lack of ability to use summon scrolls puts rogues at a disadvantage. Yes, it encourages them to find parties. But decent and reliable parties are a luxury on Arelith for a lot of players, not something you can consistently hope to find. At level 3 and level 30 there’s always options but it's a crapshoot in between unless you have something pre-arranged OOC. Casters and strength builds who can't find someone to travel with can just shrug and go it alone but rogues (and maybe archers) are just out of luck.

Of course darkness wands and choking powder are a big help but still, rogues could really use a meat shield option.

I would hope to see that addressed somehow. Why not just make summon creature scrolls open to everyone? They’re of no use in PVP especially when cast by someone who doesn’t have conjuration focus and only exist to provide a just-good-enough meat shield to those trying to solo or in small parties.

Or give dedicated rogues access to a “read magic” feat (as a level 10-13-16 etc rogue bonus feat) that gives them a big lore bonus towards reading scrolls. Or— the feat could allow them to read scrolls of level up to half of their rogue levels (18 rogue to access level 9.) Rogues reading scrolls is a hallmark of D&D after all, maybe it should be available to rogues who made an investment far beyond the 3 level dump.

Of course purchasable one-use-only meat shields of increasing strength could also be an option. The UD basically has this but I don’t believe the surface does, at least not anything strong (could be wrong!)

[Drowble Oh Seven]

One-hundred percent agree with Sea Shanties here. My last two characters were a pure bard and a fey warlock, and neither of them would have been able to progress through to the high teens (where they get options of their own, in the form of dominate person) without summon scrolls.

I would've much preferred to level them with a party but often it just doesn't work that way and the scrolls at least let my very incompetent support builds progress.

[Vespidae]

Yeah, fair. I wonder if making Rogue and Bard levels count as other caster levels for the purpose of using scrolls would be too much?

[Peppermint]

I did post a suggestion thread about this: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=25878

It's super weird that the team decided to go in the direction of making rogues the worst at using scrolls. We do need a fix.

[Diegovog]

I'd be careful. Most rogues have very low hp pool and even one knockdown can be brutal, probably lethal against most melee builds. I play a rogue-like character and I'm definitely still investing in discipline. Most people who benefit from the knockdown nerf are the ones who have a large enough HP pool or AC to not be destroyed by the first knockdown.

We should probably stick to the other thread.

[Peppermint]

Eh. The knockdown nerf is actually just a buff to divine builds.

Generally speaking, you don't want to be knocked down. You will still die.

However, divine builds are in the unique position of having enough AC to eclipse their discipline scores. Meaning that if they're even hit, they will probably be knocked down. Discipline serves only to prevent them from being spam-KD'd after the first knockdown.

With immunity to spam KD, however, they don't need to invest all that much in discipline, freeing up a feat from ESF Discipline.

All other characters, optimally-speaking, build the same.

[kiljaedon]

Im not so sure about this. Rogues are very powerful and dead mans cross is thematically assassin. You don't have to invest in umd for a weapon. You choose too. And do not discount grenades. They are devastatingly powerful and make an excellent weapon to grind in. You won't straight up hide behind a pet and just sneak attack but being straight forward in pve and pvp is not what rogue is about.

[Archnon]

I think what this thread is highlighting is largely true and the devs need to think critically about this. The goal the UMD shift was to Nerf the 3 level bard dip for UMD and limit the ability of these dipped characters from casting pretty much any spell they can find the scroll to. However, what it did was really hobble bard and rogue builds.

Basically, leveling up either of these classes without a meat shield, at least early levels is really tough. With the cap to Lore as a skill, you really can't get to the level III summons for a long time, basically longer than it will be useful. This is the summons you need to solo tackle most early content (levels 3-10). I have just started leveling up a feylock and this problem really stands out (especially considering your early level spells like sleep and tasha's are only good with <5 hit dice or same race enemies).

And while you can say, "Find a party", it is not always that easy. Further, you say that, but the game is designed for Melee builds and pure casters to have no problem soloing the early levels when RP can be tough to find.

I can think of a couple of easy solutions but they all round about to something like: Give Rogue and Bard builds access to reduced Lore based on class ranks...... IE
1.) A build that has majority Rogue or Bard levels can use scrolls for half of the lore requirement.
2.) A build that has majority Rogue or Bard levels gets a bonus to lore at level 3, 10, 20, of +10 each level. (This one would let starter rogues cast level 3 scrolls and let them have access to those summon spells. Further to cast the big stuff you would still need to invest heavily.

Something like that might return that tool to the class that really deserves it because the reality is you made the change to spite the dip and ended up really slamming the pure class players.

[Scylon]

While I agree Rouges need a buff to get going, having them summon mobs isn't the answer. They are not casters and we need to move away from this idea every needs access to pets/spells. Perhaps some mechanic like a distraction dummy for PvE they can drop to allow them to get their sweet sneak attacks.


That said, Bards being gimped on scrolls makes no sense. That is the one class that should be Scroll experts, especially if most of their levels are in Bard. I like Archnon's idea of classes who are mostly bard getting bonus, however as for his point 2, I think it needs to be pushed to 5 or 6 levels or you'll just have dippers again.

[Archnon]

While I agree Rouges need a buff to get going, having them summon mobs isn't the answer. They are not casters and we need to move away from this idea every needs access to pets/spells. Perhaps some mechanic like a distraction dummy for PvE they can drop to allow them to get their sweet sneak attacks.


That said, Bards being gimped on scrolls makes no sense. That is the one class that should be Scroll experts, especially if most of their levels are in Bard. I like Archnon's idea of classes who are mostly bard getting bonus, however as for his point 2, I think it needs to be pushed to 5 or 6 levels or you'll just have dippers again.

Agreed, but that is why I include the first caveat. The majority of your levels has to be bard/rogue. So a Fighter 27 bard 3 would not qualify for the +10 but a Bard 16 Fighter 14 would get +20 10 at level 3 bard and 10 at level 10 bard. This is better than having bardic lore count as it will help low levels more, because the lore from bardic lore is not much of an addition until level 20 and then you likely don't need the scrolls.

[Diegovog]

I think rogues are in a great spot PvE. People love to party with rogues cause of extra loot and huge DPS when guarded.

I completely disagree, both thematically and mechanically that rogues should have summons of any kind whatsoever. They are fine in PvE. Maybe the lack of AB hurts in some of the buffed bosses but that's the only problem I've seen.

PvP has changed a lot for rogues because of lack of scrolls. Less builds are able to spot rogues, especially the devoted hide/ms builds. But also rogue vs rogue is way more annoying. Casters are untouchable by rogues in a straight fight and have a much easier time spotting them.

[susitsu]

There's literally no reason not to have discipline as long as KD, disarm, and called shot all exist unless you want to lose.

[Aren]

There's literally no reason not to have discipline as long as KD, disarm, and called shot all exist unless you want to lose.

^

[kiljaedon]

While I agree Rouges need a buff to get going, having them summon mobs isn't the answer. They are not casters and we need to move away from this idea every needs access to pets/spells. Perhaps some mechanic like a distraction dummy for PvE they can drop to allow them to get their sweet sneak attacks.


That said, Bards being gimped on scrolls makes no sense. That is the one class that should be Scroll experts, especially if most of their levels are in Bard. I like Archnon's idea of classes who are mostly bard getting bonus, however as for his point 2, I think it needs to be pushed to 5 or 6 levels or you'll just have dippers again.

We don't need to buff bards anymore than necessary. They are already on the same level of casters. If not the top dog in both pvp and pve.

[Vespidae]

There's literally no reason not to have discipline as long as KD, disarm, and called shot all exist unless you want to lose.

Yeah, that's pretty depressing. I was hoping that the necessity to build every character around this one skill would have been ironed out in the update. It's KD that's the real villain of course. Disarm and CS are annoying but now that disarm has a lesser effect it can at least just be run away from.

[satan]

There's literally no reason not to have discipline as long as KD, disarm, and called shot all exist unless you want to lose.

Yeah, that's pretty depressing. I was hoping that the necessity to build every character around this one skill would have been ironed out in the update. It's KD that's the real villain of course. Disarm and CS are annoying but now that disarm has a lesser effect it can at least just be run away from.

Yes, I agree. Knockdown is bad. That one skill mundanes have/had that gives them that small rng chance to actually beat a caster needs to go.

Nerf it more until those pesky melee builds learn their place right?

[Vespidae]

There's literally no reason not to have discipline as long as KD, disarm, and called shot all exist unless you want to lose.

Yeah, that's pretty depressing. I was hoping that the necessity to build every character around this one skill would have been ironed out in the update. It's KD that's the real villain of course. Disarm and CS are annoying but now that disarm has a lesser effect it can at least just be run away from.

Yes, I agree. Knockdown is bad. That one skill mundanes have/had that gives them that small rng chance to actually beat a caster needs to go.

Nerf it more until those pesky melee builds learn their place right?

I was more thinking, give Rogues, who are disadvantaged in PvP already, something so that they don't need to alter their build just to incorporate it. A tumble-based bonus to resist KD perhaps, or let Defensive Roll ignore 1 knockdown/day.

Yeah we're all still salty about casters

[susitsu]

I'm of the perspective we need to just revert the scrolls change and knockdown changes and stop this nonsense.

If discipline is such a big deal, every character should get another 33 bonus skill points.

[NauVaseline]

I'm of the perspective we need to just revert the scrolls change and knockdown changes and stop this nonsense.

If discipline is such a big deal, every character should get another 33 bonus skill points.

[kiljaedon]

Aah rogues are not as badly off as you think. Im on my third rogue build and leveling is hardly as you place it. I've managed to find people to do writs easy enough and who says someone has to know you are near them when they xp.

I've followed two groups who was grinding xp without leaving stealth. Rogues don't have to be direct. Think indirect.

[Nitro]

I've followed two groups who was grinding xp without leaving stealth. Rogues don't have to be direct. Think indirect.

Don't take this as advice for how to level as a rogue. This is a really scummy thing to do and not at all in the spirit of the "be nice" rule, because you're directly impacting (often lessening) someone elses XP gain without any RP at all. You're essentially stealing, only it's XP instead of GP.

[kiljaedon]

Strange way to put it. Your fake outrage is amusing though. If anything it gives more xp if it causes greater spawns and if you think it was to steal just xp when I had very valid reasons to follow them. A level 30 following a party perhaps but the point is rogues do not need some kind of boons to let them become melee casters while other melee don't have what else rogues have. Since of the best damage in the game. Best crowd control and offensive utility from grenades.

[DM Eyeball]

I've followed two groups who was grinding xp without leaving stealth. Rogues don't have to be direct. Think indirect.

Don't take this as advice for how to level as a rogue. This is a really scummy thing to do and not at all in the spirit of the "be nice" rule, because you're directly impacting (often lessening) someone elses XP gain without any RP at all. You're essentially stealing, only it's XP instead of GP.

Nitro is right there. Just to have it official.

Although I wouldn't agree that it's necessarily stealing of xp (the party can be in luck and just be around the same level range). It's still quite a no-no.