Alignment settings and Balance,

[Nobs]

My honest assessment of the situation of this thread is that the problem is that people want their cake and to eat it, too.



With regards to the issue of pirates/outcasts/tags, a sentiment was discussed in this thread that I disagree with- that "I want my reputation to speak for itself and not have people just know I'm a pirate/outcast because of some tag." Again, if you go to the design directive of how these roles are meant to be played by the people who make that decision for this server, your reputation does speak to itself, to such a large extent that the whole island has heard of you in at least descriptive enough terms to visually identify you as someone to stay away from or be prepared to fight.


Everyone has a reason why tags shouldn't apply to them, and plenty of people even have good reasons. But that's exactly why its spelled out for you beforehand that those reasons don't apply - if you can make them apply post-creation through virtue of rebuilding your reputation, then good for you, but you start out disliked, not friendly or even neutral. That's part of the challenge you're agreeing to. If all it took to bypass the design restrictions for things on this server was a good RP reason, then every character on the server would have wings/tails/horns, etc.

Wonder what would happen if folks start to make pirates that dont join Sencliff and dont get the tats.
Plenty of other pirates around on Toril besides our beloved Sencliffians

[Halibutthead]

I'm in the camp that thinks there is an overabundance of hoomans in the UD, that has turned what was supposed to be a terrifying and hostile area for surfacers into cordor #2. I dont think gating outcasts behind an award would be an inherently bad thing for the setting, either. But, thats about flavor, not any pvp issues

And for the people saying "handle it in character," no. Not unless youre advocating running all the level 3s out of town and preventing them from playing. In my experience on arelith, I'm 99% certain that any amount of success you would have would result in punitive action. This is absolutely an issue for devs that players cannot rightfully address in any way

[Reallylongunneededplayername]

I'm in the camp that thinks there is an overabundance of hoomans in the UD, that has turned what was supposed to be a terrifying and hostile area for surfacers into cordor #2. I dont think gating outcasts behind an award would be an inherently bad thing for the setting, either. But, thats about flavor, not any pvp issues

And for the people saying "handle it in character," no. Not unless youre advocating running all the level 3s out of town and preventing them from playing. In my experience on arelith, I'm 99% certain that any amount of success you would have would result in punitive action. This is absolutely an issue for devs that players cannot rightfully address in any way

Agreed, I think if the "true underdarkers" succesfully expel ALL sun-races from a starter city they are going to get problems with the DM.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

In the spirit of discussion, I would like to also bring up that the whole outcasts bringing necessary life to UD could have literally been necessary then, but does not have to be necessary now. The idea of putting an award behind something doesnt have to even be permanent, much like certain 5% awards are not always available. I can't see why outcasts can not be done in a similar fashion. Like start with minor and see how it goes from there. Also there is nothing to stop someone from roleplaying there way into the outcast position, this would be just for starting someone who gets undercommon for free as a surface race.

I understand and fully support the devs in either direction and understand if the status quo of outcasts remains the same, though I believe it would be a boon to both surface evil and UD atmosphere if some kind of adjustment was made. I highly recommend a non-extreme minor adjustment if so. Subtle influences that do not complete dictate and stop player freedom, but does guide it.

[Ork]

Do you guys even play in the UD or are ya just shitposting?

There's no such thing as true underdarkers. If we kick out humans on this concept- gtfo gnolls, goblins, & kobolds.

[DM Atropos]

Mkay.

Y'all are being nice-ish, so congratulations on that.

Now, as for the rest:
- Outcasts being able to go wherever they please is actually not a thing. When it is, it's because the *PCs* of the area have decided to allow it. They can't own property, they can't own shops, they can't become citizens. Take a hint guys.
- If you are evil and do evil things, you win evil prizes. I'm not sure where this mentality of "but I'm just an innocent pirate/outcast!" is coming from but it should go away. Pirates are bad. Outcasts are bad. You're outcast from *all of society* for a darn good reason. We leave that reason to you, but not taking it is basically cheesing the entire purpose of the background. In which case the problem is the player, not the system.
- If someone PVPs you without INTERACTIVE RP, report it. That's a rule breach, we will deal with it.
- If someone PVPs you with what you think is insufficient RP? Report it! It may be within the rules, but I'd rather deal with four reports that are borderline but OK and find one that isn't than to get no reports. (Yes, I have said this before, and yes, this is the hill I will die on)
- ANDUNOR IS NOOOOOT A DROW CITY. (This is the other hill I will die on) Humans aren't going anywhere. I will happily list you a ton of cities where humans make up a good portion of the populace, be they slaved or free-but-omg-evil.

[Vrass]

Good-Evil conflict is kinda crippled on the surface. Any group causes to much pvp even when said pvp is backed by excellent rp and is fully legal will typically get snitched on by one or another group and have a dm yell at and possibly ban them. I remember this exact scenario happening during the summer... ruined some very nice conflict rp that had been going on and resulted in several people being banned (unreasonably IMHO) albeit only temporarily. Sad that people do such things, all one can do is find out who these people are and boycott them.

[Ork]

Good-Evil conflict is kinda crippled on the surface. Any group causes to much pvp even when said pvp is backed by excellent rp and is fully legal will typically get snitched on by one or another group and have a dm yell at and possibly ban them. I remember this exact scenario happening during the summer... ruined some very nice conflict rp that had been going on and resulted in several people being banned (unreasonably IMHO) albeit only temporarily.

If people got banned, they weren't doing something by the rules. Follow the rules and you've nothing to worry about. If your character concept revolves around PvPing people, time to rethink that character concept.

There is no such thing as "snitching" on Arelith. Just look at what Atropos just posted:

- If someone PVPs you with what you think is insufficient RP? Report it! It may be within the rules, but I'd rather deal with four reports that are borderline but OK and find one that isn't than to get no reports. (Yes, I have said this before, and yes, this is the hill I will die on)

There is no such thing (probably, correct me if wrong) as over-reporting PvP incidents. We, the players, don't make decisions for how a DM is going to handle a situation — we can only make them aware of it. Report, report, report and report.

[xanrael]

I don't have inside info for Arelith but I've been a DM on another server and found that the public support of a person over a ban has way more to do with their popularity than the chance they're innocent. Heck I even handed out punishments to players I personally liked and thought both before and after were great players, but nearly everyone screws up at some point for whatever reason.

I know I've witnessed a few things on here as a player that doesn't suggest Arelith is any different in that regard.

[Vrass]

Problem is there was plenty of rp supporting the pvp, more then enough and of high quality. Long story short, one of the evil factions had been going on killing sprees and working evil against a different faction for several months. Eventually the other faction got fed up with the evil guys and went to punish them. Evil faction was getting its Snuggybear handed to them as they deserved due to their rp but instead of playing along and losing with grace they whined to the dms about it instead because they could not stand losing to the good guys. Same thing happens when the evil guys start winning and good is about to lose.

And no my concept does not revolve around stomping people in pvp... more often then not when pvp happens im the one getting stomped. But one thing you can never call me is a sore loser.

[Zavandar]

hmm..

[ReverentBlade]

I think paladin RP in general these days could use a much heavier DM hand in its moderation. Clerics too, to a lesser extent. My PC is basically convinced that the gods are entirely blind to the island for mystic...reasons.

[Marsi]

If there's been a significant growth in outcasts (not that I think this is actually a problem) it could be caused by the lack of spaces for neutral, unaffiliated evil on the surface.

Wharftown is gone and Sencliff is now thematically preordained as a pastiche of Pirates of the Caribbean. For the last five (heck you could almost make that ten) years these places were very often staging grounds for evil that was novel and original from setting lore. Even if throughout their history they weren't always so, they contributed to a morally and politically ambiguous playing field where said independent evils could thrive.

If I want to play an evil character, one that doesn't fit into a pirate npc faction, isn't a Banite, and isn't an evil politician, where do I go? That's not a rhetorical question, I'm genuinely curious. One can always hole up in some cave and play everything by ear, but that takes a great deal of roleplay wherewithal.

[Aren]

Good-Evil conflict is kinda crippled on the surface. Any group causes to much pvp even when said pvp is backed by excellent rp and is fully legal will typically get snitched on by one or another group and have a dm yell at and possibly ban them. I remember this exact scenario happening during the summer... ruined some very nice conflict rp that had been going on and resulted in several people being banned (unreasonably IMHO) albeit only temporarily.

If people got banned, they weren't doing something by the rules. Follow the rules and you've nothing to worry about. If your character concept revolves around PvPing people, time to rethink that character concept.

There is no such thing as "snitching" on Arelith. Just look at what Atropos just posted:

- If someone PVPs you with what you think is insufficient RP? Report it! It may be within the rules, but I'd rather deal with four reports that are borderline but OK and find one that isn't than to get no reports. (Yes, I have said this before, and yes, this is the hill I will die on)

There is no such thing (probably, correct me if wrong) as over-reporting PvP incidents. We, the players, don't make decisions for how a DM is going to handle a situation — we can only make them aware of it. Report, report, report and report.

Recently though, in my opinion, there has been some issues in the UD regarding the whole: Report, report, report-mentality. You see, you have players who, by the nature of their characters, inspire conflict. Conflict builds and PvP ensues. These players, whom I won't name, are pretty good at the game, and keeps winning the PvP incidents, while at the same time providing top-level RP for other people around them. The other party keeps aggressing on the players, meta-gaming the portal-list, getting friends to *show up out of no-where* to pvp, ignore RP until it suits them mechanically ect.. (You know, the must win mentality that everyone so despise) - and yet they keep losing. Naturally, no one likes losing, and this then results in mass reporting of every pvp-incident. And naturally, these reports are phrased and framed in such a way, as to benefit those who write the reports. But you see, the players who shall not be named, don't believe in reporting PvP-incidents unless they are grave blatant offences, and even then they don't really care much, as it *is* a game. So you now have a plethora of players on one side, who reports every incident framed in a way that serve benefit themselves, and players on the other side who never reports, even when rule-breaches such as resurrecting to rejoin PVP are evident.

The result? The player(s) who shall not be named, gets banned. Six months. No talking to about changing behaviour. No DM intervention IC'ly. And why were they banned? Because they refuse to report PvP, and the evidence (provided by mass reports) suggests that the players IC actions are "detrimental" to the enjoyment of the game to a significant part of the UD player base, because they win and that does not sit well with the narrative of some other players who wants to play *bad guys*.

[Arienette]

I also have heard of groups/factions who have an OOC policy where every member involved in PvP incidents against the "other side" are encouraged to find some reason to make a "potential rule break" report to DMs.

If this is not true, its a commonly held opinion. And it sadly seems to me to be the kind of thing people, in general, would come up with.

[Aren]

I also have heard of groups/factions who have an OOC policy where every member involved in PvP incidents against the "other side" are encouraged to find some reason to make a "potential rule break" report to DMs.

If this is not true, its a commonly held opinion. And it sadly seems to me to be the kind of thing people, in general, would come up with.

To me it seems to more and more common practice. Because it works.

Edit: And if they can't get you on a technicality, they can always argue that you have a must-win mentality or that you are in violation of the be-nice rule.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

I also have heard of groups/factions who have an OOC policy where every member involved in PvP incidents against the "other side" are encouraged to find some reason to make a "potential rule break" report to DMs.

If this is not true, its a commonly held opinion. And it sadly seems to me to be the kind of thing people, in general, would come up with.

To me it seems to more and more common practice. Because it works.

Edit: And if they can't get you on a technicality, they can always argue that you have a must-win mentality or that you are in violation of the be-nice rule.

If this is true, this is much more important than issue of "how many outcasts are there in UD" and "why can't we tell who is who when the surfacers can". (I think latter is a real issue")

This game should not have to be a report brawl

[Aren]

I also have heard of groups/factions who have an OOC policy where every member involved in PvP incidents against the "other side" are encouraged to find some reason to make a "potential rule break" report to DMs.

If this is not true, its a commonly held opinion. And it sadly seems to me to be the kind of thing people, in general, would come up with.

To me it seems to more and more common practice. Because it works.

Edit: And if they can't get you on a technicality, they can always argue that you have a must-win mentality or that you are in violation of the be-nice rule.

If this is true, this is much more important than issue of "how many outcasts are there in UD" and "why can't we tell who is who when the surfacers can". (I think latter is a real issue")

This game should not have to be a report brawl

Don't worry. A team member will be along shortly to explain that this is definitely not the case, and that they have preventive measures in place to make sure this doesn't happen and then proceed to lock this thread. Yet you have a number of players who have experienced this first hand, and who have been in said groups/factions and witnessed these things - and the reason you don't hear from them, is because they are either banned now, or have left Arelith because of the above.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

To me it seems to more and more common practice. Because it works.

Edit: And if they can't get you on a technicality, they can always argue that you have a must-win mentality or that you are in violation of the be-nice rule.

If this is true, this is much more important than issue of "how many outcasts are there in UD" and "why can't we tell who is who when the surfacers can". (I think latter is a real issue")

This game should not have to be a report brawl

Don't worry. A team member will be along shortly to explain that this is definitely not the case, and that they have preventive measures in place to make sure this doesn't happen and then proceed to lock this thread. Yet you have a number of players who have experienced this first hand, and who have been in said groups/factions and witnessed these things - and the reason you don't hear from them, is because they are either banned now, or have left Arelith because of the above.

Well everyone has "measures in place". I know with a lot more players it has gotten harder. Heck, I think DMs at one point monitored even tell chat instead of relying on reports.

In this situation though, said people would have to band together everyone with said experiences and have an advocate for them. Which to be honest, sounds like a lot of work for a videogame.

[Aren]

If this is true, this is much more important than issue of "how many outcasts are there in UD" and "why can't we tell who is who when the surfacers can". (I think latter is a real issue")

This game should not have to be a report brawl

Don't worry. A team member will be along shortly to explain that this is definitely not the case, and that they have preventive measures in place to make sure this doesn't happen and then proceed to lock this thread. Yet you have a number of players who have experienced this first hand, and who have been in said groups/factions and witnessed these things - and the reason you don't hear from them, is because they are either banned now, or have left Arelith because of the above.

Well everyone has "measures in place". I know with a lot more players it has gotten harder. Heck, I think DMs at one point monitored even tell chat instead of relying on reports.

In this situation though, said people would have to band together everyone with said experiences and have an advocate for them. Which to be honest, sounds like a lot of work for a videogame.

Most of them don't care anymore, as they moved on to elsewhere. That does not mean that the problem does not still exist.

[xanrael]

If you're constantly involved in conflict with a group that's getting ticked off OOC and breaking a ton of server rules then even if it doesn't bother you personally, probably best to mention it to the DMs so that group doesn't bother their next target.

Taking everything at face value, only one side of the story is being heard because the other has chosen to be silent.

That or consider if one side are griefers who are uninterested in meaningful conflict RP, why continue interacting with them assuming that their opinion will spontaneously change? People shouldn't seek to solve IC issues with OOC methods. Likewise they shouldn't expect OOC issues to be solved with IC actions either.

[Nobs]

Outrage culture .

But as always i believe it boils down to people not wanting to lose.
So when they do 'lose' they report...
Even seen folks in discord distort things that just simply did never happen that way in game.

And personaly felt it a few months back when a DM asked for a chat.
Things where said that just was not true and i did feel i was being man handled for nothing so i just went with it to get out of the convo. (Though the DM did say i did not break a rule)
So the day after i just rolled my toon i was playing at that time and took a break.
Was planning to roll the toon and take some time of any way BUT this DM chat was the drop that made the bucket flow over so i rolled him some what sooner then i though i would.

Few days after this the faction i was playing with got the same sort of talk to and many others rolled right then and there aswel.
Sad days as the RP that was going on was good.
Its a shame and its not fair but life aint fair so here i am again in the sandbox.

Just accept that when you make a toon that has a good chance to fall in to pvp alot you may find your self at the short end of the stick AND thats ok.
Just nod and say ok sorry sir...and life wil go on , Make a new toon and hope for the best.

See you all in game for that sweet sweet rp we all love so mutch.

[Aren]

If you're constantly involved in conflict with a group that's getting ticked off OOC and breaking a ton of server rules then even if it doesn't bother you personally, probably best to mention it to the DMs so that group doesn't bother their next target.

Taking everything at face value, only one side of the story is being heard because the other has chosen to be silent.

That or consider if one side are griefers who are uninterested in meaningful conflict RP, why continue interacting with them assuming that their opinion will spontaneously change? People shouldn't seek to solve IC issues with OOC methods. Likewise they shouldn't expect OOC issues to be solved with IC actions either.

The thing is, the aforementioned player thought the conflict good fun, rule-breaks aside. The opposing side clearly did not, but continued to throw themselves at the aforementioned player regardless - even as the player was trying to solve the matter IC'ly. But that's beside the point. The point is, that if you don't take the time to file a report of every PvP incident, you are risking that the other party reports you, which results in them framing the incident however they choose to. DM Atropos has previously said, and I quote: "No reports? Nothing gets done. Amazing how that happens... If you don't report, sorry about your luck, nothing we can do."

My personal opinion is, that this reporting culture that is being encouraged is very detrimental to the server as whole, as those that are unaware of this stance, or those that actively choose to not report other players for various reasons, are at a severe disadvantage in the case of PvP-incidents.

[xanrael]

My personal opinion is, that this reporting culture that is being encouraged is very detrimental to the server as whole, as those that are unaware of this stance, or those that actively choose to not report other players for various reasons, are at a severe disadvantage in the case of PvP-incidents.

My thought is that asking for bad actors not to create false reports is like asking for no one to give an uninformed opinion on the internet, it's just not going to happen.

I also don't think it has to end with a reporting war either, but an OOC chat between the two sides when things start to look like they're going further than normal. Either things can be smoothed over to have enjoyable IC conflict or they cannot and now both sides are informed that the situation isn't resolvable.

Likewise then if you do get a slew of reports about you there is documentation that can be provided to the DM team that shows you were willing to work things out and were acting in good faith. I suspect you could even ask a DM to sit down with both sides to help arbitrate and offer advice instead of seeking to dole out punishments.

[Aren]

My personal opinion is, that this reporting culture that is being encouraged is very detrimental to the server as whole, as those that are unaware of this stance, or those that actively choose to not report other players for various reasons, are at a severe disadvantage in the case of PvP-incidents.

Likewise then if you do get a slew of reports about you there is documentation that can be provided to the DM team that shows you were willing to work things out and were acting in good faith. I suspect you could even ask a DM to sit down with both sides to help arbitrate and offer advice instead of seeking to dole out punishments.

I agree to this sentiment. But that's not what's happening currently.