Alignment settings and Balance,

[Ork]

I don't really believe you. I know a few months back there were PvP incidents that lead to bans that were entirely justified. In addition, you're providing heresay as a defense for your statements. We don't know the entire circumstances around why players have been banned.

But, again you do you I guess. The DMs aren't stupid & most certainly have other resources to uncover truth than a players statement.

[Aren]

I don't really believe you. I know a few months back there were PvP incidents that lead to bans that were entirely justified. In addition, you're providing heresay as a defense for your statements. We don't know the entire circumstances around why players have been banned.

But, again you do you I guess. The DMs aren't stupid & most certainly have other resources to uncover truth than a players statement.

That's your prerogative, Ork.

[Nobs]

I don't really believe you. I know a few months back there were PvP incidents that lead to bans that were entirely justified. In addition, you're providing heresay as a defense for your statements. We don't know the entire circumstances around why players have been banned.

But, again you do you I guess. The DMs aren't stupid & most certainly have other resources to uncover truth than a players statement.

I for one was never banned

[Aren]

Also: To OP and the rest, sorry for the thread-hijacking / sidetracking.

[DM Atropos]

We literally will never ban because of reports. You can report, with all of your friends, until you're blue in the....fingers? Face? Either way.

What will get you banned is one of two things:

A.) You break rules egregiously. If we can warn you beforehand, we will. If you're doing it in such a way that you have to leave *now* for the good of the server, we'll discuss it when you ask us what happened.

B.) You are acting in such a way that you are becoming toxic. Let's say I check your logs and find you giggling manically in tells about your plan to 24-hour killbash people. I'm certainly not going to broadcast to others why (or even THAT) you were banned, but you're still liable to win a vacation. Does this mean the people reporting you are awesome great players that I love? No. It means YOU did something we found to be in violation of the letter or the spirit of the law. I find that personal accountability tends to take a backseat in these discussions, but it is very much a Thing.

And yes. If you don't report you absolutely lose wiggleroom in the WHY DON'T YOU ADDRESS X?! argument. I won't change that stance. There are about 15 of us, admin included, and over a thousand of you. We need your help if there' things you want changed.

[Aren]

We literally will never ban because of reports. You can report, with all of your friends, until you're blue in the....fingers? Face? Either way.

What will get you banned is one of two things:

A.) You break rules egregiously. If we can warn you beforehand, we will. If you're doing it in such a way that you have to leave *now* for the good of the server, we'll discuss it when you ask us what happened.

B.) You are acting in such a way that you are becoming toxic. Let's say I check your logs and find you giggling manically in tells about your plan to 24-hour killbash people. I'm certainly not going to broadcast to others why (or even THAT) you were banned, but you're still liable to win a vacation. Does this mean the people reporting you are awesome great players that I love? No. It means YOU did something we found to be in violation of the letter or the spirit of the law. I find that personal accountability tends to take a backseat in these discussions, but it is very much a Thing.

And yes. If you don't report you absolutely lose wiggleroom in the WHY DON'T YOU ADDRESS X?! argument. I won't change that stance. There are about 15 of us, admin included, and over a thousand of you. We need your help if there' things you want changed.

1.The player in question was banned due to “evidence presented”. When asked about what evidence, the player in question was told: “We cannot share that information with you, because we’re protecting those who reported you against harassment.”
So that effectively tells me that reports get people banned. Especially when there are multiple people reporting the same thing.

2. So perceived ooc toxic behaviour can get you banned, regardless of IC actions to end conflicts. That’s interesting. A great reason to turn on notells I suppose. Thank you for clarifying that.

Yes, there’s 15 of you and a thousand players. Yet you asked for this. You asked people to report, because (it’s better to be safe than sorry). Yet you’ll find that a lot of players, especially those of us who have other responsibilities such as family, don’t want to spend time filling out reports in that little time we get to sit down and enjoy ourselves. So by default, those that don’t care enough about conflicts to report each incident, will lose that game of attrition eventually. I still think this report-culture is a slippery slope. But thank you for your answer.

[Zavandar]

surely some banned people deserve to be banned..

i am beginning to wonder if a lot of people dont report because it would self-incriminate. I wonder, too, if some of the anecdotes in this thread aren't entirely truthful..

I'm not one of those people that report every pvp I participate in. I do report if something goes wrong, like if I am cussed out afterwards. I usually see pretty prompt responses when I do. I also dont put demands in my reports, and I try to just trust the DMs to do what they think they need to with the info I provide

I know I've been reported, too. I've had DMs talk to me about my conduct before on different occasions and I shape up. I know that this sometimes even happens after being mass reported (some people have been very vocal about their dislike of me). Lo and behold, I haven't been banned. Quantity of reports doesn't do as much as you think

[Zavandar]

also I think taking 5-10 minutes out to make a report isnt that hard. The "I have other responsibilities" argument doesn't really hold water. It's actually extremely disingenuous. Come on man

Also also, p sure atropos meant that theres 15 of them so you cant realistic expect them to see everything. Do you think THEY have time to just comb through thousands of lines of dialogue for just.. a random something? Do you think they can be everywhere at once?

If you expect a person to be an omniscient god, of course you're going to be disappointed. Be realistic dude

[the grim yeeter]

2. So perceived ooc toxic behaviour can get you banned, regardless of IC actions to end conflicts. That’s interesting.

Yes. Of course it can. In fact, I'd say OOC toxic behaviour is the main reason people (should) get banned.

[Aren]

I generally don’t report out of principle. But I also hardly ever involve myself in conflict, because of the OOC grief that’s bound to follow. I think I’ve reported 3 incidents in my entire Arelith “career”. One of which was a guy cursing me out OOCly in Spanish calling my mother a whore.

I won’t change that, mostly because I expect people who are grown enough to engage in PvP activity, are also grown enough to take a loss. Yet this does not always seem to be the case.

And of course Zavandar, I don’t deny that the player in question bears his part of the responsibility for the conflict. But to my knowledge, it was the other party that escalated the situation.

[Aren]

also I think taking 5-10 minutes out to make a report isnt that hard. The "I have other responsibilities" argument doesn't really hold water. It's actually extremely disingenuous. Come on man

Also also, p sure atropos meant that theres 15 of them so you cant realistic expect them to see everything. Do you think THEY have time to just comb through thousands of lines of dialogue for just.. a random something? Do you think they can be everywhere at once?

If you expect a person to be an omniscient god, of course you're going to be disappointed. Be realistic dude

As a ph.d student, a father of a toddler and generally busy guy, I can tell you that the last thing I wish to do is to sift through logs to report someone for something they did in a video game. So no, I don’t find that notion disingenuous.

And no, I don’t expect them to be omnipresent, or spend hours combing through logs. But when someone can go from being an active part of the UD, providing solid RP, to getting banned with no warning or reason other than “evidence presented” then I think something’s wrong. No talk. No chance to correct his ways?
The player in question did not even want to appeal, because he felt so wronged by this. I talked him into appealing though.

[the grim yeeter]

As a ph.d student, a father of a toddler and generally busy guy, I can tell you that the last thing I wish to do is to sift through logs to report someone for something they did in a video game.

That's your choice.

[Zavandar]

Aight man I'm gonna tell you an uncomfortable truth

If you can post on the forums, if you can complain in discord, you can report

[Aren]

As a ph.d student, a father of a toddler and generally busy guy, I can tell you that the last thing I wish to do is to sift through logs to report someone for something they did in a video game.

That's your choice.

Correct.

[Aren]

Aight man I'm gonna tell you an uncomfortable truth

If you can post on the forums, if you can complain in discord, you can report

You seem to confuse me with the player in question. And there's a difference between looking through gamelogs, and point out something that could potentially be an issue for players who are not actively reporting every incident of PvP in which they participate. And for me to answer a forum thread on my phone while I cook dinner, can hardly be considered the same thing as the above.

[the grim yeeter]

Aight man I'm gonna tell you an uncomfortable truth

If you can post on the forums, if you can complain in discord, you can report

You seem to confuse me with the player in question. And there's a difference between looking through gamelogs, and point out something that could potentially be an issue for players who are not actively reporting every incident of PvP in which they participate. And for me to answer a forum thread on my phone while I cook dinner, can hardly be considered the same thing as the above.

It's not that hard to type a report. Really, it isn't. As in, you can still type it on your phone while cooking just fine. Trust me. I imagine, as a PhD student, you're perfectly able to do that.

[Zavandar]

Why are you waiting to look through logs, just take a screenshot when it happens

So many people have a problem until they're told to do something about it

[Aren]

Aight man I'm gonna tell you an uncomfortable truth

If you can post on the forums, if you can complain in discord, you can report

You seem to confuse me with the player in question. And there's a difference between looking through gamelogs, and point out something that could potentially be an issue for players who are not actively reporting every incident of PvP in which they participate. And for me to answer a forum thread on my phone while I cook dinner, can hardly be considered the same thing as the above.

It's not that hard to type a report. Really, it isn't. As in, you can still type it on your phone while cooking just fine. Trust me. I imagine, as a PhD student, you're perfectly able to do that.

Thank you for the snide comment friend. I feel like you might have something at stake here, sorry if you felt singled out somehow.

[Apothys]

Hey leave him alone, if he says hes a busy man and unable to report then you should take his word on it, not giving him grief for stating such. Lets keep it civil.

[DM Atropos]

Also, and this may be an unpopular opinion, it's *entirely possible* that people don't give honest reasons they've been banned, because it's so much easier to say "omg corrupt DM team" than to admit you screwed up. I am not, it should be noted, directly referencing the player Szaren refers to. However, when you hear things like "banned for no reason" that is simply unilaterally false. There is *always* a reason. You may not agree with the reason at hand. I get that. I feel you. Doesn't change that there is, in fact, a reason.

We will not, ever, share reports made against you. (General you, not the specific you). And we will never share reports you make with the people involved. All too often, that leads to retaliation, and that is fun for precisely no one.

TL:DR is this-

If, upon getting reports, and reviewing evidence, and talking to people involved, we feel a ban is the only solution that will prevent a problem from worsening, that is the route we go. The entire team will weigh in, and often the admin team will, as well.
Bans aren't handed out unless rules are broken. Yes, this includes Rule One.
If someone says they've been banned without reason, assume this is dishonest, though they may not be LYING, they may just not understand how they broke rules.

[Aren]

Also, and this may be an unpopular opinion, it's *entirely possible* that people don't give honest reasons they've been banned, because it's so much easier to say "omg corrupt DM team" than to admit you screwed up. I am not, it should be noted, directly referencing the player Szaren refers to. However, when you hear things like "banned for no reason" that is simply unilaterally false. There is *always* a reason. You may not agree with the reason at hand. I get that. I feel you. Doesn't change that there is, in fact, a reason.

We will not, ever, share reports made against you. (General you, not the specific you). And we will never share reports you make with the people involved. All too often, that leads to retaliation, and that is fun for precisely no one.

TL:DR is this-

If, upon getting reports, and reviewing evidence, and talking to people involved, we feel a ban is the only solution that will prevent a problem from worsening, that is the route we go. The entire team will weigh in, and often the admin team will, as well.
Bans aren't handed out unless rules are broken. Yes, this includes Rule One.
If someone says they've been banned without reason, assume this is dishonest, though they may not be LYING, they may just not understand how they broke rules.

I think what upset him, was the inability of the DM in question to specify the reason as to why he was banned. It was for “evidence presented”. He asked for elaboration, but was told that this wasn’t a trial, and his fate had been sealed.
How is a person supposed to change what he’s doing wrong, if he isn’t talked to about it before a ban is administered, and then banned without any explanation?
And that’s not a lie, as I’ve seen the exchange.

[Halibutthead]

i think if that's how it played out, an appeal is in order. that's what it's for. because you're right.
but we don't know what went on in the DM's DMs, so we can't really add anything relevant to it

[Scurvy Cur]

Sometimes the change we want to see from a player is “stop logging into the server for a few months”.

[Aren]

Sometimes the change we want to see from a player is “stop logging into the server for a few months”.

Then at least be honest about it?

[DM Eyeball]

If you don't trust us to do the job right (which is a legitimate thing to do), there is an escalation ladder. That's why there are appeals in the first place and yes, Atropos, Spyre and Irongron all take a good look at what we do. That probably won't change opinions, but that's how it is.

Log-checking for reports does consume a lot of time as is, by the by. Additionally, everything we assemble in terms of evidence is open for all DMs to read and add perspective. This probably won't change opinions either, but we do keep each other in check pretty well.

It would be lovely if this thread could go back to the discussion of OP, it has strayed considerably from there.