Feedback on the community I guess? Part of?

[Reallylongunneededplayername]

Hey guys,

So, Is it just me or is there currently a "Make things easier" culture going on on Arelith.

Some time ago we lost the traps in Cordor graveyard;
Those traps have there been forever, I have been dealing with them time and time again with a lot of different characters.

Now I made a comment once on the Malar temple, So maybe I'm a bit guilty too?
Though I never had issues with the temple pre-writs.

But lately folk keep at it and I just want to know, Is it really that bad?

I myself am by al means no a builder of good characters but I never had issues, Cause if something is hard:
I'd plan, Try again, Ask for help, Get a party.
And with that I have been basicly everywhere on Arelith.

So, Uhm, Maybe don't give up, See it as a challenge?
I'd hate to see Arelith becomming more of an cake walk than it already is.

[Nitro]

A lot of the older, "harder" dungeons on Arelith aren't great design because their ´difficulty´is often contrived from some gimmick that's hard or annoying to deal with. Like the crypts traps, they're high DC, have no warning that they might be coming up and are in an area where resting is prohibited. So unless you've already done the dungeon and are aware of them and can prepare appropriately, they're a dead end at the finale of a long dungeon. You're cheated out of your conclusion by a cheap gimmick.

In other places it's an overtuned enemy that makes an area harder than it should be, like the pre-nerf talassians that spammed missile storms. For a level appropriate party that usually meant death if they spawned a pack of two or more.

So what people are asking for isn't 'easier' dungeons, but better designed ones, more in-line with other options for that level range. We don't want to see all enemies reduced to popcorn that you can sweep away without any effort, but rather that they're difficult because of a well balanced statblock, not some gimmick that will make certain classes useless, destroy unaware adventurers, or make them a boring pain in the back to fight (see old slithering trackers).

Harder dungeons are absolutely fine, good even. But they should also have a reward (XP, GP, loot, runes etc) to reflect the increase in difficulty compared to other dungeons at that level range, otherwise why even run that dungeon at all?

[Aurian]

If some writs and areas are considerably more time-consuming and frustrating to deal with than others of the same level range, people will just run the less frustrating ones over and over and some areas / writs will be mostly ignored / abandoned. Which is a shame. And running the same writs over and over isn't exactly thrilling - keep in mind that some players are active in odd timezones and might not always find a party.

It might be cool if some writs were specifically labelled as 'group writs' with a higher challenge and considerably higher rewards. Those shouldn't be soloable, and if a rogue is needed, that requirement should be clear from the start. Going somewhere and then finding out near the end you lack a certain skill to proceed is frustrating. Some of us work 12 hour days, let us have fun in what free time we have!

[Ascheriit]

My interpretation was that most of these changes were to promote actually doing the whole variety of writs rather than grinding the currently "optimal" ones. To me this is a good thing as people should hopefully explore more and there won't be traffic jams in certain areas.

[Nitro]

My interpretation was that most of these changes were to promote actually doing the whole variety of writs rather than grinding the currently "optimal" ones. To me this is a good thing as people should hopefully explore more and there won't be traffic jams in certain areas.

Exactly this. I can't even remember the last time I saw any group doing Morghunn's lair.

[Exordius]

Visited Morghunn's Lair one time... once i managed to find the entrance to it. Much easier then the Malar temple which was a pleasant surprise.

[Drowble Oh Seven]

For sure. It's not so much people want easy dungeons so much as an end to expedition-ruining gotcha!s. If a player dies, ideally, it should be the result of some choice they made. To push on in the face of dwindling supplies, to enter the dragon's den despite the scorched, armour-plated skeletons at the entrance. These things are fine. They're foreshadowed, and the result of player decision. This is a good death. There is no shame in this.

Death to traps at the bottom of a long dungeon with no workaround available to players who haven't seen them before (aside from 'get potions!' - which is worse than useless once you're already there) are not the result of player decision. It's like being zapped! out of existence by that high DC trap that was at the bottom of the Cordor Crypts for a while. You've won the battle. End of this long slog of a dungeon. Go you. Now, time to collect your hard-fought loot and - Oh, you're a smoking corpse. Better luck next time. This is an understandably frustrating way to die.

It's a tricky thing to manage in an online world versus the tabletop, and I don't envy the devs who have to do it one bit.

[Reallylongunneededplayername]

Visited Morghunn's Lair one time... once i managed to find the entrance to it. Much easier then the Malar temple which was a pleasant surprise.

The boss is awesome, I'm always excited to see how it goes, 50% victory chance for me so far.
I needs some planning but yes, It's a good dungeon, The only issue is the location as far I'm concerned.

For sure. It's not so much people want easy dungeons so much as an end to expedition-ruining gotcha!s. If a player dies, ideally, it should be the result of some choice they made. To push on in the face of dwindling supplies, to enter the dragon's den despite the scorched, armour-plated skeletons at the entrance. These things are fine. They're foreshadowed, and the result of player decision. This is a good death. There is no shame in this.

Death to traps at the bottom of a long dungeon with no workaround available to players who haven't seen them before (aside from 'get potions!' - which is worse than useless once you're already there) are not the result of player decision. It's like being zapped! out of existence by that high DC trap that was at the bottom of the Cordor Crypts for a while. You've won the battle. End of this long slog of a dungeon. Go you. Now, time to collect your hard-fought loot and - Oh, you're a smoking corpse. Better luck next time. This is an understandably frustrating way to die.

It's a tricky thing to manage in an online world versus the tabletop, and I don't envy the devs who have to do it one bit.

Two things:

Yes, Traps are really crappy way to die, Specially random traps, I can not keep up with how many deaths I have been through where I have been zapped by touching a door.

By this account we should remove all traps cause they can be all equally deadly and frustrating.

You made the point of players not having seen the traps before and it being on the end of a dungeon,
By that account we should also remove a whole bunch of them at several dungeons, By head, M's Lair (Tripple spike), Temple Auril (Lever frost), Malar temple (tripple? gas/poison) all with a high level of getting you killed. And yes, The last one you can avoid... If you know about them or got the search for it.

Now the Cordor crypt, Specially the Cordor crypt out of all dungeons we have -screams- "Yes, You are going to need a rogue" from the moment you have to reflex save your way over a bridge, The fact that it then has a lever basicly tells you "You are likely going to need a party" if that wasn't already obvious by the part where rogues are not quite usefull against undead unless they are high lvl grenade tossers.
If you at that point still manage to stride on passing one challenge after another, You know, It's been getting harder, It's going to get harder.

I'm still going to pass on how we have been doing Arelith for eons, You try, You die, You learn, You adapt.

*Gives in a little* I guess they could have made the trap a grade lower if difficulty perhaps, I still think it is pandering to the "I want Arelith to be a cake walk to lvl 30".

[The GrumpyCat]

Playing counterpoint to your trap issue in the cordor Crypts - I see where you're coming from, Reallylong, but keep in mind it's also one of the starter dungeons. As in it's one of the first places new players will do. Dying or being terribly wounded in a trap at level say, 10, when you've got mates around you, you know how the game works, ect ect - is one thing. Having it happen when you're level 3 and have only been playing for a couple of hours - heck maybe this is your first dungeon, that can be a bit disenheartening.

[JubJub]

Those lvl drain traps in the cordor crypt did seem a bit much for the lvl of the area,

[Scylon]

While I don't mind traps, putting really bad ones in the starter dungeons is a bit rough.

My main issue with traps is not they are there, it is the ones on chests are infinite, essentially making them impossible to loot without disarm trap.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

I'm inclined to agree with OP's sentiment. It always sucks dying to a trap, but I think it equally sucks not having traps that can kill you because if you know that in advance the risk and thrill are gone.

I'm not advocating epic level electricity traps in level 3 areas, but I'm also reasonably leveled traps that can one-shot me if not disarmed or spotted.

Shy of monsters jumping on you while you're loading and you can't interact, I've kind of always thought of those "gotchas" as an element that's almost vital to instituting some sort of actual challenge, whether they be traps or monsters that throw swarms of dispels or the sudden fire immune monster in the midst of ice giants, etc.

The only thing I would boot from the module is climb checks- I once, with a group, literally failed a climb check some fifty or so times in a row- possibly more. I went through at least fifteen healing kits (only counting mine, not the kits others used on me) before I gave up on passing the climb check. It was a bit of a game-breaker for me- especially since the character in question could arguably have just cut stairs into the cliff with spells and made the climb.

[Echohawk]

Generally speaking after you've bumped your head as much as possible (unless you had a guide friend) the server will seem generally easier. It's a bit sad but obviously the first time you go through a game you have that sense of awe, that sort of fear of just how big the map really is, and the first experiences with various challenges that stick firmly in your mind.
Most of the trap reductions and other adjustments are for level and quality of life.

Things I was more surprised to see removed was harder penalties such as disarm physically losing a weapon. Generally speaking there are few losses one encounters in this game that aren't just death cooldown and negative stats between you and willing yourself to victory or avoiding that area. (Unless you play with an MoD, I tip my hat.)

There are still many extremely difficult areas in the game where you cannot saunter out alone without either a plan, or knowledge of the area and a means to handle whatever dangers are ahead of you. Even Irongron seeking what writs are under utilized is a means to communicate what still seems outdated or unbalanced, and this is a very good thing to address since writing a dungeon and having to experience it are two different perspectives. And when you've found the loop in this dungeon or that area you can also start to forget how hard it was five or ten levels ago.