Can Traps be Made Viable

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Archnon
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Can Traps be Made Viable

Post by Archnon » Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:34 pm

So I have noticed a few threads discussing the use of traps in the suggestion area including:

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=26516 --> Special Trap Set for rogues and rangers
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=25943&p=206453&hilit=trap#p206453 --> Rogue bonus so they don't have to do the dramatic clothing change
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=25419&p=203043&hilit=trap#p203043 --> Setting Traps while stealthed


Thinking about these, I was wondering if people had insight as to what would make traps playable for PVE and PVP... now a few things that are off the table:
1.) The rule on PVE experience from traps is probably not gonna change and limits their use, we deal with it.
2.) The PVp rules also aren't going to change. You can't set a trap for someone without RP first, This makes traps hard, but not impossible to use.

However, even given these, I think there is some opportunity to improve them without wonking out balance:
1.) Rogue/Ranger benefits like:
a.) Unique Traps for these classes, like grenades.
b.) Improve save DC for traps by class-levels (This is important as even epic traps do not have a crazy high save, so these suffer from the same problems as poisons in the high save culture that is Arelith)

2.) You can also play around with skill mastery feat and give it some perks and give it to rangers as well, including.
a.) Automatic Skill focus feats for set/disable trap
b.) Improved save DC of traps, ie, say +10 for skill mastery, +20 if you also take ESF set trap
c.) Allowing characters with the feat to set traps without leaving stealth (As i argued earlier, this is huge for pvp and pve. Basically if you set a trap you immediately stand on top of it and are unstealthed, if it is an area affect and that WM/Fighter you are battling chargers you and activates it, you are both blown up.

Finally, is it possible to make new traps craftable under the crafting system and eliminate the Craft trap skill. Almost no one uses it, and perhaps, there could be better traps available for each of the crafts. In addition, a weight reduced trap box would be amazing! and huge for the ability to use these regularly in dungeons and pvp.

It strikes me that this is such a cool mechanic that is going to waste and really fun to RP with. So my fellow trappers out there, let me know what you think!

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msterswrdsmn
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Re: Can Traps be Made Viable

Post by msterswrdsmn » Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:46 am

As someone who has used traps on Arelith on 4 different characters over the years....traps are in a wierd spot.

:arrow: You don't get xp for killing things
This isn't as big of a deal as it may sound. No trap xp? No problem. I'll just drop things down to low HP then finish them off in a single round. It can lead to some moments where you're praying the traps don't kill them, as you accidentally set 2-3 too many. The traps to threat balance is a very, very tricky thing.

:arrow: Most traps are useless
Even for PVE, a lot of enemies start showing up with evasion/imp. evasion relatively early on. Some monsters, like the quaggoth elder have saves that are high enough to flat out ignore 12+ average/minor traps (that's a writ available at low low levels). Even a level 3 character has a chance to flat out ignore some of the traps

This list doesn't include the epic versions, which is another issue
-Spike traps: High damage, but even deadly spike traps have a laughable DC, with the highest DC being a 15 dc reflex save. Really only good for damaging DR spells on mages with no evasion/imp evasion, which is rare.
-Acid splash: 20 reflex DC for 8d8 damage. Terrible!
-Sonic: Highest has a DC of 20 for 8d4 damage. Will stun, but the DC is really low.
-Negative: 21 DC for 8d6 damage. The level drain is nice, but that DC.....
-Frost: 15 DC for 8d4 damage. Even level 1's have a 25% chance of avoiding this.
-Gas: 20 DC. A successful save negates all effects. 3d6 CON damage MIGHT be nice, but you'll never see it happen unless they roll a 1

Some of those traps will do damage on a failed save, but mostly, they're junk even at low levels. That leaves :
Tangle: Slow, deadly has a 35 DC that spellcraft won't help with
Fire and electric: DC of 26 with high damage and no secondary effect (and a dc of 26 is low for mid to late game)
Acid blob: DC of 25 to avoid paralysis; the full damage will always hit you regardless of your saving throw (18d6 for deadly)

Tangle traps are the only ones that will be consistantly useful up to epic levels, as a 35 spellcraftless DC is quite high for some builds. Acid blob is probably the most useful damage dealer as they always deal damage, but they're also the rarest type of trap and cannot be crafted. Enjoy watching 10k worth of acid blobs trap blow up on one mid-level boss.

:arrow: High Skill Investment
Epic traps are the only really, really useful damage/disabling traps at high levels unless you're just spamming traps en-mass. Aquiring them either requires luck with the loot matrix, or being able to recover traps from epic areas. And once you have them, you need at least 45 ranks in set traps to even consider using them; even on a dex build with some buffing, this is not a cheap skillpoint investment. Even moreso if you have a matching disable traps investment to recover them. And triple this skillpoint waste if you invest in craft traps because you don't want to drop 30k for 7-10 deadly traps.

Additionally, only rogues can recover epic traps, as nwn requires rogue levels to deal with traps that have a disable DC over 35.

:arrow: Players can't disarm player traps
I remember when....Sleflock (sp?) the svirf palemaster lived in the Foxes Den. The local rangers took issue with this and set a trap on their doorstep (and a note, which despawned before they got their). The DC to just examine the trap was 104! Players add their set traps skill ranks to the traps examine/disarm/recover/flag DC. And, if you have the ability to set epic traps, this means that even your stupid minor spike trap is going to be nigh impossible to disarm short of stepping on it.

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Re: Can Traps be Made Viable

Post by thimblegiant » Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:06 pm

@msterswrdsmn - Hey - wanted to say thanks for the excellent write-up on traps. I've been wondering about using them more, but given how many I find in the trash I wasn't sure if it was just common agreement they're worthless or if people just didn't know how best to make use of them. I'm curious now to give them a go.

Archnon
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Re: Can Traps be Made Viable

Post by Archnon » Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:49 am

That was an awesome review! Really helpful.

You didn't mention Holy traps. They have no save correct?

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Re: Can Traps be Made Viable

Post by Might-N-Magic » Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:16 am

Sadly, ages ago Mith decided the "base" traps were "too good" (snicker) and nerfed all their damages. They've been trash ever since.

Archnon
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Re: Can Traps be Made Viable

Post by Archnon » Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:20 am

Might-N-Magic wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:16 am
Sadly, ages ago Mith decided the "base" traps were "too good" (snicker) and nerfed all their damages. They've been trash ever since.
It would be awesome if this information were somewhere, say on the wiki. Trying to build a character based on NWN vanilla information when so much has changed is difficult.

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msterswrdsmn
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Re: Can Traps be Made Viable

Post by msterswrdsmn » Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:37 am

Archnon wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:49 am
That was an awesome review! Really helpful.

You didn't mention Holy traps. They have no save correct?
Holy crap you're right. I forgot about those.

Holy traps: 8d4 (12d10 if undead) divine with no save.

These are really good for undead if you're a build that relies on sneak attacks. Holy water is readily available at all settlements too, and the craft trap DC is 30 for deadly (really low, on par with deadly tangle traps for lowest useful crafting dc).

I keep forgetting these exist for whatever reason; they're great against undead, and worthless against anything else.
thimblegiant wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:06 pm
@msterswrdsmn - Hey - wanted to say thanks for the excellent write-up on traps. I've been wondering about using them more, but given how many I find in the trash I wasn't sure if it was just common agreement they're worthless or if people just didn't know how best to make use of them. I'm curious now to give them a go.
Glad I could help. They're not all bad, especially if you're playing a less-powerful build. Don't rely on them to kill things, but use them to weaken stronger enemies; its easier to kill a boss with half its HP gone right off the bat, regardless if you can stun/disable it. Tangle traps are short-lived, but the effects of slow are powerful (one attack per round, -2 AB/AC/reflex saves). Space them out, and fall back and retreat over the next trap once the first traps effects wear off.

Good trap usage comes down to the right trap (all of 3-4 choices) at the right time, with the proper spacing/positioning.
Sadly, ages ago Mith decided the "base" traps were "too good" (snicker) and nerfed all their damages. They've been trash ever since.
I can confirm this happened....somewhere around 2011-2013? Within the first few months of the random-traps-spawning-on-doors scripts. A lot of low level characters were dying to random traps spawning on doors (Cordor sewers was the worst offender) so rather than adjust the traps that spawned (this was probably one of the most hated scripts introduced at the time), the damage got hard-nerfed. I have no idea what the actual damage values are now, or if this is even still a thing.

Anomandaris
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Re: Can Traps be Made Viable

Post by Anomandaris » Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:55 am

As I understand it rules as written prevent one from say setting a bunch of traps somewhere nearby, walking up and starting a fight, running to have them give chase and having them run through those traps?

If that's the case, I think it's the rules more so than the mechanics that prevent them really being useful in PvP. Of all the things one should or could be doing in combat against another character, putting a trap down is super low on that list. However luring an overzealous pursuer into a trap, is super Rougey and awesome, but as I understand it not allowed (for some reason I don't understand).

It's not "starting combat" It's preparing for a fight. So you technically should be able to set traps, just as you might "buff" and then go rp etc then start a fight and run. The same thing for an ambush. Can I not get other PCs to lay in wait for an ambush and lure someone when a fight breaks out? No.. pre fight planning is a thing and it's tactics, traps should be a tool. The difference is "springing the trap" without RP, that would be engaging in PvP without RP and obviously not cool.

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Re: Can Traps be Made Viable

Post by msterswrdsmn » Sun Dec 15, 2019 8:37 am

Jordenk wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:55 am
As I understand it rules as written prevent one from say setting a bunch of traps somewhere nearby, walking up and starting a fight, running to have them give chase and having them run through those traps?

If that's the case, I think it's the rules more so than the mechanics that prevent them really being useful in PvP. Of all the things one should or could be doing in combat against another character, putting a trap down is super low on that list. However luring an overzealous pursuer into a trap, is super Rougey and awesome, but as I understand it not allowed (for some reason I don't understand).

It's not "starting combat" It's preparing for a fight. So you technically should be able to set traps, just as you might "buff" and then go rp etc then start a fight and run. The same thing for an ambush. Can I not get other PCs to lay in wait for an ambush and lure someone when a fight breaks out? No.. pre fight planning is a thing and it's tactics, traps should be a tool. The difference is "springing the trap" without RP, that would be engaging in PvP without RP and obviously not cool.
I'm 99% certain thats not a rule. The only rule I can think of regarding traps is setting a ton then walking off and leaving them completely unintended. Ie; trapping an area then leaving the server, sticking them on a pc's door and walking away, etc. Or using them in a manner that is going to get a lot of random uninvolved people killed. Ie: setting a ton on/around a portal

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Re: Can Traps be Made Viable

Post by Anomandaris » Sun Dec 15, 2019 8:38 pm

msterswrdsmn wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 8:37 am
Jordenk wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:55 am
As I understand it rules as written prevent one from say setting a bunch of traps somewhere nearby, walking up and starting a fight, running to have them give chase and having them run through those traps?

If that's the case, I think it's the rules more so than the mechanics that prevent them really being useful in PvP. Of all the things one should or could be doing in combat against another character, putting a trap down is super low on that list. However luring an overzealous pursuer into a trap, is super Rougey and awesome, but as I understand it not allowed (for some reason I don't understand).

It's not "starting combat" It's preparing for a fight. So you technically should be able to set traps, just as you might "buff" and then go rp etc then start a fight and run. The same thing for an ambush. Can I not get other PCs to lay in wait for an ambush and lure someone when a fight breaks out? No.. pre fight planning is a thing and it's tactics, traps should be a tool. The difference is "springing the trap" without RP, that would be engaging in PvP without RP and obviously not cool.
I'm 99% certain thats not a rule. The only rule I can think of regarding traps is setting a ton then walking off and leaving them completely unintended. Ie; trapping an area then leaving the server, sticking them on a pc's door and walking away, etc. Or using them in a manner that is going to get a lot of random uninvolved people killed. Ie: setting a ton on/around a portal
Ah ok, that is good to know. I had thought that "no setting before RP" implied that. Makes more sense that it would not be that stringent however. Thanks :D

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Re: Can Traps be Made Viable

Post by JubJub » Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:59 pm

Issue #1 with traps useless when in party since 99% of the time after you place all the traps the party just runs ahead of the traps anyway and fights.

Issue #2 with traps is you suddenly become visable when placing the trap.

Luring someone into a trap is fine, you can taunt someone then run off and lead them to the traps. It's happened many of times. But there are rules. An issue will come up if you lay them half a screen away and innocent folks walk into them, which is why the server doesn't want you to place them and walk too far away. Don't place traps at transitions, don't place traps and leave etc. Pretty common sense stuff. It was even said you could trap the floor of your quarters but not the transition but you had to leave like a sign saying floor trapped proceed at own risk.

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Re: Can Traps be Made Viable

Post by Archnon » Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:08 am

So apparently there are potential revisions coming down the pipe on this. :) hopefully this thread is well noted and thanks for all the solid contributions Trap users!

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Re: Can Traps be Made Viable

Post by Wuthering » Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:26 am

Jordenk wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:55 am
Of all the things one should or could be doing in combat against another character, putting a trap down is super low on that list.
I think rogue grenades made this less enticing but before they were around taking "skill mastery" to be able to lay down epic traps in combat was actually a pretty effective thing to do in some cases.

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Re: Can Traps be Made Viable

Post by Freyason » Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:14 pm

msterswrdsmn wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:46 am
Additionally, only rogues can recover epic traps, as nwn requires rogue levels to deal with traps that have a disable DC over 35.
Is this new thing, my dex ranger was doing it a lot when I played year or so ago. He couldn't disable but he could recover. I think anyone can recover with DC+10.

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Re: Can Traps be Made Viable

Post by msterswrdsmn » Wed Dec 18, 2019 8:53 pm

Its something that is hardcoded into NWN. That said, I think it only applies to disabling; I think you may be right about how anyone can recover traps.

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Re: Can Traps be Made Viable

Post by Apokriphos » Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:12 am

I think there are two main issues with traps:

1). They are difficult to use in PvP due to needing significant setup to only be able to target the hostiled party. - Solution: A trapper could be given a widget that when used on a foe enabled only them to trigger it.
2). Their abilities are weakened in Arelith.

In base NWN, the DCs are higher. Please see below:

Type Strength Target Damage Special Save DC
tangle deadly 10 ft radius slow, 5 rounds reflex 35
electrical epic 7 creatures, 15 ft radius 60d6 electrical reflex 35
fire epic 10 ft radius 50d6 fire reflex 33
sonic epic 10 ft radius 40d4 sonic stun, 4 rounds will 30
frost epic single creature 40d4 cold paralysis, 4 rounds fortitude 30
holy deadly single creature 8d4 (12d10 if undead) divine none

With these DCs unaffected by Spellcraft save modifier, these DCs are similar to high level spellcaster DC spells. I would advocate for restoring trap DCs to these levels.

https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Trap

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Re: Can Traps be Made Viable

Post by NauVaseline » Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:24 am

Why on Earth can't we sell traps?

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Re: Can Traps be Made Viable

Post by Hazard » Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:18 am

If they only triggered when hostile characters stepped on them, or the above mentioned widget idea I think that would be great. Otherwise it's just too risky that you trap someone not involved, and not would that suck for the player AND waste your traps, but it's against the rules too and you might get put into a corner :c

I recall traps being one of the only ways to take down the old Dragonshaper Druids in 1v1.

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Re: Can Traps be Made Viable

Post by AstralUniverse » Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:45 am

NauVaseline wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:24 am
Why on Earth can't we sell traps?
You can. Just need to find the right type of peddler. They are quite rare.
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Re: Can Traps be Made Viable

Post by Shadowy Reality » Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:10 pm

Traps are hard to use as they are, as mentioned above, because of how the PvP rules work and all the work that is needed to set it up.

I do not find them useless though. Anyone without evasion is going to be hurting from deadly/epic fire and electrical traps. WIth enough traps someone will eventually roll a 1, Gas and Sonic traps are particularly nasty as they leave you very vulnerable.

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Re: Can Traps be Made Viable

Post by Nitro » Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:42 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:45 am
NauVaseline wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:24 am
Why on Earth can't we sell traps?
You can. Just need to find the right type of peddler. They are quite rare.
You should report those vendors to the DM team, they can be used in an infinite money exploit. It's why most peddlers on the server that used to buy traps no longer do so.

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Re: Can Traps be Made Viable

Post by Hunter548 » Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:58 pm

I think the biggest problem with making traps viable is how lopsided they are in terms of counter-play. Detecting player-placed epic traps (Which are basically what everyone would/should be using in PvP because they do pretty ridiculous amounts of damage).

Just detecting an epic electrical/fire/frost/sonic trap has a DC of 43+the trap setter's skill. Given that all of these have a DC of 65 to actually set (meaning a minimum skill of 45), you're talking a minimum search DC of 88 to even detect these traps.

"But wait Hunter", you say. "What about find traps wands/items?"

Sure, those will tell you where the traps are. However, even then you can't actually do anything about them - the DC to remove all these traps is 58+setter skill (Minimum DC: 103). In other words, once the trap is on the floor it's not coming up unless someone hits it or the setter removes it. Add to it that four-five of these will kill pretty much any build (An epic electrical averages 100 damage if you pass the save, how easy it is to box someone in with traps, and the ability to stack traps ontop of each other (So that you have four traps going off at once in the same space, rather than one) and you end up in a scenario where the only things you can do against a trap build is:

A) Don't let them set traps (harder than it sounds, if they have the slightest inkling there'll be a fight)
B) Be a trap build yourself, so that you can remove them
C) Die

I know there's a lot of hyperbole on the forums about how certain builds/classes are unkillable godkings, or hugely out of wack compared to everything else, but this seems uncomfortably close to true if trap restrictions get relaxed in the current trap paradigm (DCs, damage, stackability, etc). You'd certainly need to adjust all of those aspects severely, first.

It's not even like getting epic traps en masse is all that hard.
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Re: Can Traps be Made Viable

Post by msterswrdsmn » Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:58 am

Okay, so i've given it some thought, and heres my suggestion for rebalancing traps

1. Reset the DC/Damages to custom values (i'll expand on this further)
2. Limit how much a players set traps score contributes to the disarm/search DC's (again, I can hit DC's of 120 per trap. Thats unreasonable). Set the cap to something based off the players level (not class level; people can still cross class trap skills)
3. To ensure some fair counterplay on both ends, allow the synergy bonus between set/disable traps to trigger at certain intervals, rather than just once at +5 per set/disable trap base rank.
4. Trap DC's for saves are based on the trap tier and the trap setters skill level. For example
Weak Trap DC: 10+ 1/2 Set Traps Score [Cap of +5]
Average Trap DC: 10+ 1/2 Set Traps Score [Cap of +10]
Strong Trap DC: 15+ 1/3 Set Traps score [Cap of +15]
Deadly Trap DC: 15+1/3 Set Traps Score [Cap of +20]

Not sure how to add the set traps to the disarm requirements; i'll let someone else figure out the numbers on that

The logic for the 1/2 to 1/3 skill buff is because laying down craploads of 30 DC traps against someones weak save is rough. Doing so should be still doable as it is now, but with harsher requirements. Again, those numbers are just to lay out a concept; i haven't done any math or number crunching to figure out how realistic those numbers are.

I'd tweak the effects of some of the more underwhelming traps for more utility too. For example; toning down the damage on deadly spike traps, but adding a wounding property with the damage based on the traps tier. Or changing gas traps to having no default effect, but requiring a poison vial to use, creating a gas cloud of the slotted poison vial (would require high DEX or use poison to effectively use)

But....those are custom ideas. I'd suggest something like points 1 to 4 to start.

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