Recipes

[Dreams]

Previous feedback was that some recipes were 'nested', in that you have to spend a ridiculous amount of time gathering a ridiculous amount of things, to then spend a ridiculous amount of crafting points, to make a ridiculous amount of components, to make a 'roughly-comparable to basic' thing.

Previous suggestions for fixing the issue of nested recipes was to add some rare components in the place of the components that were frustrating. However, now we have nested recipes that require rare components.

I hope that makes sense? Maybe someone else can explain better.

[The GrumpyCat]

It makes perfect sense. To start with I didn't want to mess with the recipes too much, and I do think an amount of 'nesting' is fine. That said, I think there's some which are a little too much so (e.g. I seem to recall enchanted large shield is like that).

In the next few days I may go back and revisit one or two of these, to make them a little less ah... nested?

[Nitro]

Enchanted large shield is genital torture to make

Enchanted shield
- 2x ashwood stabiliser.
- 4x charcoal (byproduct of pine tar)X
- 2x chunks addy X
- 2x natural gums X
- 8x Nuts X
- 10x Glass Vial
- 4x Hardwood X
- 4x Softwood X
- 8x Malyss Root X
- 2x pine tar X
- 4x glass bottle X
- 8x hardwood X
- 2x alchemist's fire X

- 1x dragon oil X
- 1x dragonhide X
- 5x flask of oil X
- 1x dragon blood X

- 2x hardening finish X
- 2x Arjale chunk X
- 2x Mithril chunk X
- 2x natural gums X
- 8x Nuts X
- 10x Glass Vial X
- 4x Hardwood X
- 4x Softwood X
- 8x Malyss Root X
- 2x pine tar X
- 4x glass bottle X
- 8x hardwood X
- 2x alchemist's fire X
- 2x Hardwood Resin X
-10x glass vial X
-8x hardwood X

- 1x Hardened shield X
- 1x Emulsified oil X
- 4x Harnak Seeds X
- 2x Charcoal (byproduct of pine tar)X
- 1x Iron chunk X
- 1x Small seed balm X
- 3x Strideleaf X
- 6x Nuts X
- 3x Sassone Leaves X
- 6x Yarrow Leaves X

- 1x hardening finish X
- 1x Arjale chunk X
- 1x Mithril chunk X
- 1x natural gums X
- 4x Nuts X
- 5x Glass Vial X
- 2x Hardwood X
- 2x Softwood X
- 4x Malyss Root X
- 1x pine tar X
- 2x glass bottle X
- 4x hardwood X
- 1x alchemist's fire X
- 1x Hardwood Resin X

- 1x Sturdy Wood Shield X
- 1x Emulsified oil X
- 4x Harnak Seeds X
- 2x Charcoal (byproduct of pine tar)X
- 1x Iron chunk X
- 1x Small seed balm X
- 3x Strideleaf x
- 6x Nuts X
- 3x Sassone Leaves X
- 6x Yarrow Leaves X
- 1x leather (large) X
- 1x tanning acid X
- 1x glass vial X
- 1x Salt X
- 2x Fruit X
- 1x animal hide (large) X
- 1x Large Shield (wood) X
- 2x hardwood X



TOTAL CRAFT POINTS/MAX DC
Alchemy: 300 points/max DC 35

Art: 60 points/max DC 3

Carpentry: 336 points/max DC 45

Herbalism: 121 points/max DC 12

Tailoring: 1 point/max DC 5


TOTAL POINTS: 818

[AstralUniverse]

I'll use this stage to talk about heads on spikes.

I wanna put the head of someone my character killed, on a spike. But the recipe for that includes MORE heads/skulls/monster heads etc. It makes no sense from an IC standpoint that I need more heads to put the head of the person my character killed, on a spike. Perhaps there could be an additional recipe that includes a PC head?

[Tarkus the dog]

I'm not happy with many of the carpentry recipes but I won't get into details or why since nobody cares and nothing will be done about it.

Just stating my dislike towards it. Whatever that does.

[The GrumpyCat]

I'll use this stage to talk about heads on spikes.

I wanna put the head of someone my character killed, on a spike. But the recipe for that includes MORE heads/skulls/monster heads etc. It makes no sense from an IC standpoint that I need more heads to put the head of the person my character killed, on a spike. Perhaps there could be an additional recipe that includes a PC head?

Two problems with this.

a) It doesn't occur to me as especialy easy to do. Certianly with my limited ability I couldn't do it. Is it impossible? No not saying that. But it would involve a bit of coding.

b) I'm already not very happy with the idea of bashing leaving heads, if I'm honest. This only seems to make the situation worse. With things as it is there are two (granted extremes) of reaction which this encourages:
We Take Death Seriously - In which case having multiple bashed heads on stakes is basicaly a very hint that someone should -delete their character upon a kill-bash.
We Don't Take Death Seriously - In which case it becomes 'Lol I have 53 versions of my severed head decorating the room lol! Wanna kill me again Bob?'

So in general I really wouldn't be in favour of using player heads for this recipe.

EDIT: Tarkus? Can you send me a PM and I'll look over why you arn't happy? I may be able to do something about it, or if I can't/won't I should probably at least be able to give you reasons? Because currently what that 'Does' is pretty much nothing but discourage and upset folk.

[DM Avalon Soul]

I'm not happy with many of the carpentry recipes but I won't get into details or why since nobody cares and nothing will be done about it.

Just stating my dislike towards it. Whatever that does.

Would you be willing to provide more probative feedback and explain WHY? It's a lot more viable to react and act on substantiable feedback as opposed to not seeing the change you are interested in seeing.

[Tarkus the dog]

I'll try not to write a wall of text as there are other things in the game that deserve more attention, however it could easily be TL:RD'ed into that it's very unfair towards other crafting branches. Forging, tailoring and art crafting is way more fairer(?) than carpentry. Masterly damask quarterstaff and enchanted quarterstaff? The difference in damage is so minor, but enchanted quarterstaff is a little bit stronger. In order to get it you need a 49 carpentry and all of the materials. Now also the rare hardwood on top of that instead of the regular one, and I'm not even sure what that is. Same thing for the enchanted shield and the bows/crossbows. Somewhat vexing to make.

Medium races can get around not using the shield ( well, unless they are playing a warlock and would REALLY like the shield since it is atm the best shield for warlocks in the game). Not an issue, I'll just use an addy shield and slap a standard rune on top. Done deal, by runeing addy and enchanting it with weight reduction I've just got myself similar stats as the enchanted large shield more or less ( not only that, but if a cleric casts magic vestment on me I get 1 more ac than the large shield! ) Someone might say "Hey but you can rune the enchanted large shield and get another stat on top! ) You can, but you have to go through the vexing process of making one. Some builds/races don't get that option. As a one handed halfling, I (would like) to use that shield, and it's a very vexing process. As an archer, I (would like) to use that bow/crossbow, but it's a very vexing process to get one. So on and so on. The fact that I can't find a single carpentry repairing kits these days may or may not illustrate which are the preferable trades for people to take.

Anyway in my attempt not to write a wall of text I've written a wall of text, sorry. To sum it up: The main issue with the carpentry recipes isn't that they are vexing to make, but rather that they are somewhat unfair towards other trades. People will have a much easier time dishing out tailoring/art crafting/forging items compared to the carpentry ones. I'm not sure if that was intentional or if is considered a problem by the team but I'm discontented with the way carpentry is and that's really all I (very roughly) have to say. I'm certain there are players who enjoy walking around the game server collecting different materials and then finding the correct tradesman and then getting them to combine those materials into the material that they need and then using those materials to make the material that they need in order to make the item that they need to make, but I'm not one of those players. I've stuck with the adamantine as my preferred material for a reason. Thanks for reading.

[The GrumpyCat]

I'll try and take another look at the shields today. I seem to recall there's like, three or four levels of 'nesting' in them? Which imo is WAY too much. Two 'levels' of nesting is fine imo (like you need greater bow to make Ashwood bow) But much more than that is a bit silly.

From what I can see your primary issue is that carpentry stuff isn't as good as none-carpentry stuff, rather than that the recipes are inherently bad. Maybe what we need, going forward, is more vareities of bows/wooden shields ect? Would thaat help?

[Ork]

Now we need to collect specific types of wood.



What have you done to my boy?

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Some of the new recipes are very intimidating to approach, like the dyes. I'm going to do everything dye based after I make everything else first. My inventory and storage cannot handle all of the ingredients dyes are going to take. This is my biggest problem with the recipes, they require such a huge variety of things that it's hard to store it all.

As some examples, I haven't found a bag I can fit cotton and spider silk into, and I don't think there's a herbalism resource bag. Ingots don't go into a mining bag. And, the weight cap on mining bags is so low, I can't fit all my resources into them. Mining bags take ore, wood, and stone. But I need to use so much wood and stone, I can't get away with storing it in a bag. Each stone piece is 50 lbs a piece, which makes it impossible to store in a bag. And lead, I need a LOT of lead for dyes, I can't store that in a mining bag. And I need tons of coal for glass, bottles, and other things.

The new rare hardwood is another item I'm going to have to have on hand. It can't go into the mining bag like the other woods, but even then, at 10 lbs a piece, it would fill the bag up really quickly.

Then there are a lot of other miscellaneous items. Pine tar, charcoal, printing ink, quills, quartz to make quills. Quartz doesn't go into the gem bag. Once I start making dyes, that's going to be many, many extra items. Both the ingredients for making dyes, and the dyes themselves. A lot of the dyes require other dyes to make them, so I need to have enough materials to make a lot of dye at once.


My suggestion would be:
- Let herbs go into the hunting bag or add a herbalism bag.
- Let charcoal go into one of the bags.
- Add a tailoring bag that can store dyes, cotton, silk, cloth, leather, and bolts of cloth/silk.
- Allow quartz to go into a gem bag.
- Allow mining bags to hold ingots and rare hardwood.
- Increase the weight of what the mining bag can hold since all of the things that go in it are extremely heavy.

Also, could magical resource bags be fixed? They don't store the amount they say they do. I've heard that those that appear in chests are bugged and that players need to try and page a DM to replace it with a non-broken version, but I've not been able to get a DM to help me. I'm not sure if this is true or not or is just something players say. Either way it would be very helpful if mining bags specifically could have their contents weight limit increased for all versions of the bag.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

I'll try and take another look at the shields today. I seem to recall there's like, three or four levels of 'nesting' in them? Which imo is WAY too much. Two 'levels' of nesting is fine imo (like you need greater bow to make Ashwood bow) But much more than that is a bit silly.

From what I can see your primary issue is that carpentry stuff isn't as good as none-carpentry stuff, rather than that the recipes are inherently bad. Maybe what we need, going forward, is more vareities of bows/wooden shields ect? Would thaat help?

For me the problem with the nested recipes is the sheer number of ingredients I need to go around to collect to make all of the nested components such as emulsified oils (which require seed balms {{which require 3 strideleaf, 6 nuts, 3 sassone leaves, and 6 yarrow leaves}} and charcoal {{the new recipe taking 1 raw gem: diamond, 1 raw gem: greenstone, 1 hardwood, 1 diamond, 1 alchemist fire}} ), hardening finishes (which requires a chunk of arjale and mithril, hardwood resins {{which requires 5 glass vials {{{which requires 2 charcoal and 2 glass {{{{which requires 2 charcoal and 2 sand}}}} }}} and 4 hardwood}}, and pine tar {{which requires glass {{{which requires 2 sand and 2 coal}}}, 4 hardwood, and 1 alchemist fire}} ), and so forth.


Another suggestion: Could the charcoal recipe have the diamond and raw gem: diamond removed from it? That is very expensive for only 1 piece of charcoal that you get out of it. I think 1 alchemist fire and 1 hardwood is enough. Charcoal is just an ingredient to make other things that each have their own lengthy ingredient lists.

[The GrumpyCat]

I

Stuff.

To adress some points
1) You have some good points, and I've noticed a lot of suggestions in the Suggestion pending box that basicaly seem to come to 'We need more bags for Stuff'. At some point I think we'll have to just have a push forward for that whole deal. I don't know when that will be, but know that it's at least on my radar.

2) Ok that... recipe for charocal is odd. I'll uh, look into it. In the mean time check out the recipe for Pine Tar. You get charcoal out of that too and far more cheeply.

3) I think the intent behind a lot of the recipes is to encourage trade. It's not to make you say, go out and find the herbs to make Ashwood Stabalizer. It's to encourage Joe Bob to go out and sell ashwood Stabalzier, and then you buy it off him.
How successful this modle is however is... debatable.

[Mythic]

I've noticed it's mainly the new Carpentry recipes that require the previous tier of Weapon, Be it bow or Sling, To create the next along.

Smithing does not have this, I dont need a Greensteel blade to make a Damask, I'd likely say that simply having some rare material instead of an entirely different crafted bow and more of the same materials, to upgrade. Is a better solution

To Piggyback on this a little, Recipes overall are better when they are simple but take some effort, Rather than needing entire spreadsheets to know how much of something you need, and how much CP you'll spend.

Smithing is a very easy and very worthwhile Profession, Whereas compared to carpentry, Which has such a high amount of effort to make anything "worthwhile" (other than fixtures, But even some of those now!) It's hard to balance out the professions between Ease of use and Monetary Value.


Simplify? Recipes, So it's not an scavenger hunt to make a pokey stick launcher. But make it so the items you do need, Ya' need to earn.


Apolagies if the above makes little sense.

[Diegovog]

I agree that herbalism should have a bag. As well as poison vial bag.

[The GrumpyCat]

To be fair, Smithing does have 'Nesting' when it comes to Bracers, and also one or two other items. But I do take your meaning. I think I'll be looking to reduce it going forward. Maybe not eliminate, but definatly reduce.

[AstralUniverse]

b) I'm already not very happy with the idea of bashing leaving heads, if I'm honest. This only seems to make the situation worse. With things as it is there are two (granted extremes) of reaction which this encourages:
We Take Death Seriously - In which case having multiple bashed heads on stakes is basicaly a very hint that someone should -delete their character upon a kill-bash.
We Don't Take Death Seriously - In which case it becomes 'Lol I have 53 versions of my severed head decorating the room lol! Wanna kill me again Bob?

But I can already kill bash someone and make this fixture, then rename it to the character name that I killed, saying pretty loud and open that I kill-bashed them at least once. Now, unless THAT is a questionable thing to do, I dont see what the difference is.

Also, imagine the situation where you have someone's head in your hands. You wanna put it on a spike and you gotta tell your carpenter to go get more skulls or a Giant head to make that happen. It seems wrong in all sorts of ways.

[Nitro]

To be fair, Smithing does have 'Nesting' when it comes to Bracers, and also one or two other items. But I do take your meaning. I think I'll be looking to reduce it going forward. Maybe not eliminate, but definatly reduce.

The bracers are a recent addition though, and in the same vein as the high-end carpentry recipies, like ashwood bows/crossbows, enchanted shields and the likes. All of these recipies have in common a nested crafting requirement of multiple intermediary steps which makes then a real drag to make.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

I've noticed it's mainly the new Carpentry recipes that require the previous tier of Weapon, Be it bow or Sling, To create the next along.

Smithing does not have this, I dont need a Greensteel blade to make a Damask, I'd likely say that simply having some rare material instead of an entirely different crafted bow and more of the same materials, to upgrade. Is a better solution

To Piggyback on this a little, Recipes overall are better when they are simple but take some effort, Rather than needing entire spreadsheets to know how much of something you need, and how much CP you'll spend.

Smithing is a very easy and very worthwhile Profession, Whereas compared to carpentry, Which has such a high amount of effort to make anything "worthwhile" (other than fixtures, But even some of those now!) It's hard to balance out the professions between Ease of use and Monetary Value.


Simplify? Recipes, So it's not an scavenger hunt to make a pokey stick launcher. But make it so the items you do need, Ya' need to earn.


Apolagies if the above makes little sense.

For range weapons, upgrading a previous thing isnt super bad. Because it mean your weapon isn't put to waste when you acquire not quite top tier at earlier levels. But the nesting on enchsnted shield. My goodness does a hin have to work hars to compete with adamantine tower shield.

[The GrumpyCat]

I've taken on board some of the coments here, and reduced the amount of nesting in the carpentry options. Not eleiminated, but reduced.

May post more thoughts later.

[Johnsmith]

How are underdark carpenters to get yew wood for things like staffs?

[The GrumpyCat]

*Trading
*Bribing
*Kidnap and randsom
*Travel up disguised and sneakily get it
*Send slaves up
*Raid (as in, head up and look for wood, not head up and attack settlments)

That's a few ideas.

[Johnsmith]

It's a heavy hit to underdarkers, though, no? What if the special wood was interchangeable in recipes or found in both UD and surface?

Staffs get made in the Underdark too, right?

[Nitro]

It's a heavy hit to underdarkers, though, no? What if the special wood was interchangeable in recipes or found in both UD and surface?

Staffs get made in the Underdark too, right?

Adamantine is a rarer spawn on the surface than in the underdark. Both things make sense, wood is supposed to be a rare luxury in the Underdark in the setting.

[JustMonika]

I'm currently trying to furnish one small room.

The mind boggles at the things that I need. Almost every fixture requires other bits from other crafting trees or piles of ingredients I wouldn't even know where to look and arn't sold in shops.

It's terribly offputting. In the good old days, I could rock up to a crafting station, and go 'Right, Wooden thing. Needs wood.' now I'm all...

????

I don't just need a craftsperson, DC, and time, I also need a shopping list of things and no shop to buy them from. Maybe this is intentional to sharply reduce the number of fixtures?