Two cents on (pure-ish) fighters

[Elaetheus]

Hello,

there is this part of bonus « shield » ac that does not work if no shield is worn. I wondered, why?

For example, making 26/4 fighter/rogue and drinking a skleen will give you only one ac point missing. Doesn’t seem like much. However adding that shield AC would remove the need to worry about such things, contributing further to the concept of « no-worries » pure fighter build that will still likely remain weaker than its WM counterparts.

Am I missing some hidden op pure fighter builds? Or is it more of a technical issue? It would be nice to see that bonus granted whenever a weapon is equipped, suggesting that parrying and mobility is just as important for protection.

Thanks

[AstralUniverse]

You're not missing any op builds. Fighter, alone, is the class with the most feats that can specialize in the highest verity of weapons and can take all the feats with Saves and dweamoncraft tier 3. It is not meant to outclass weapon masters in a straight 1v1.

About the shield. The fighter ac bonus to shield is not supposed to apply when a shield is not on. So if you wear a shield with +2 ac, it will become +3 from fighter bonus, when you're wearing it. Shield AC from skleen does not stack with anything so it's only beneficial to characters who arent wearing shield of any kind.

[Elaetheus]

I know how it works, yes.

What I meant was why can’t we have it changed to work without the shield? There are other much more powerful builds that are feat and skill rich, have dweomercraft, and are much more potent offensively.

Ideally one could even augment the shield bonus for 2handed wielders for example. This way fighters would be the niche for those who want to play the stereotypical full plated greatsworder that doesn’t get the extra APR or crit or divine damage but still compensate using the two handed weapons.

[AstralUniverse]

No man. Specialization with shields doesnt give you any bonuses when you're not wearing a shield. That's just common logic. Two handed weapon giving you Shield ac is very definition of counter common logic, unless we're playing starwars or scorpion king where people deflect projectiles with their swords.

As for balance and all that. You cant compare a pure fighter to other melee builds who (almost surely do) have fighter lvls within them. That's just not how it works. The idea is that fighter alone is versatile. It's not supposed to do anything better than a bardadin or a weapon master, but it does MORE things, period. Saying that other, more powerful builds, can take all the important feats pure fighters can take is just wrong. We're talking about 3 lore feats, dweamoncrafting feats, all saves feats, all combat feats on several weapon types. There's no build that gets all of those except pure fighter. Fighter's nich is not raw power in numbers - it's the flexibility in the feats and it's the only class people take all sorts of levels spreads (4, 6, 10, 15, 20 and 30 fighter lvls. All exist within popular melee builds).

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

So a pure fighter does seem to be forced into the sword and board niche rather than it being a flexible option.

My only recommendation to change that, is to increase max dex ac instead of shield ac.

With 13 base dex and 5 dex potion, you can have a dex mod of 4 reaching your max dex mod if fighters got increased max dex ac instead of shield ac. This would also add some viability to dex fighters while giving extra ac while still two handing

[Jagel]

A purish fighter (why oh why would you do that?) can easily use feats specialisering in at least two weapons.

Sword/board is optimal but that goes for all melee builds.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

A purish fighter (why oh why would you do that?) can easily use feats specialisering in at least two weapons.

Sword/board is optimal but that goes for all melee builds.

And i think the OP just wants to close the optimal gap

Like its one thing to give up plus 3 towershield of ac, bur then another 3 a.c. on top of that when its part of your class feature? He just wants that extra 3 ac regardless if shield or not. Which if said change is done, shield and board is still more optimal, but QoL is enhanced when two handing

[Nitro]

That's not just QoL. It's a direct buff to every 2hander/dual wield build with 10 or more fighter levels. A 25/5 ftr/rogue does certainly not need or deserve another 2 freebie undispellable AC when they're not using a shield.

[AstralUniverse]

A purish fighter (why oh why would you do that?) can easily use feats specialisering in at least two weapons.

Sword/board is optimal but that goes for all melee builds.

And i think the OP just wants to close the optimal gap

Like its one thing to give up plus 3 towershield of ac, bur then another 3 a.c. on top of that when its part of your class feature? He just wants that extra 3 ac regardless if shield or not. Which if said change is done, shield and board is still more optimal, but QoL is enhanced when two handing

That 'optimal gap' doesnt exist. It's like saying you want to close the optimal gap between a rogue and a cleric - they do different things and they excel in different situations. two handed weapon is a very powerful option if you're fighting a caster and you want to kill them fast. There's absolutely no reason in the world to grant two handers AC more than there's a reason to give a rogue a cast of wof per day or grant the cleric sneak attacks to close the 'gap' between them.

QoL (Quality of life) = when you implement a change that does NOT change the balance, or the numbers of anything, and is only a more convenient tool to do what you were already supposed to do (like adding Guard and Pray as feats, for example ). Giving a certain weapon or class bonus ac, is not QoL, it's a buff.

[Jagel]

Two handers have their innate str modifier to damage and have been further buffed with a +2 to ab.

We can all agree that in most cases the above is not enough to go two handed instead of sword/shield.

Having the shield AC bonus while not wielding a shield would be akin to gaining the dmg bonus to weapons without a weapon equipped or clerics being able to cast holy vestment on a two handed weapon.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

except they are not gaining the tower shield + 3 enhancement + 3 fighter class. They would just be gaining 3 ac.

Sword and board fighter with same +3 would still be better than two handed fighter with same +3.

So i don't see how it harms meta at all.

I thought of monks with fighter levels taking advantage of this and thought of increasing max dex ac to armor as a way of increasing ac instead of shield bonus as my earlier post said because monks can not benefit from higher max dex and should not be getting shield ac.

[Jagel]

It’s simple as this: wearing a helmet nets you an ac bonus while wearing the helmet. Same for shield. If the Devs meant it as a flat AC bonus they could have put it all as dodge ac.

[Shadowy Reality]

Or we could go the other way.

With no shield in the off-hand we cannot give AC, but we can give more AB.

So instead of getting +3 Shield AC, you get +3 Enchantment bonus in your main hand, to a maximum of +6 at level 30 (that is a +9 weapon if you are using masterly damask).

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

It’s simple as this: wearing a helmet nets you an ac bonus while wearing the helmet. Same for shield. If the Devs meant it as a flat AC bonus they could have put it all as dodge ac.

Except helmet and armor bonuses apply to even non armor items in body and helm slot.

I have no clue what devs intended for over half a decade ago, that's why someone brought it up. Were not saying it has to be changed, but "what if it could?' Obviously you prefer it not to be changed, is there a mechanic reason or you just Aesthetically despire two handing fighters?

[JubJub]

So it comes down to 2h for a better chance to hit and 1h and shield for a bit more defense. Isn't that how it should be? using 2h shouldn't be the same ac as using a shield, and using 2h should add more oompf to your swinging.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

So basically the suggestion is to add two more ac to level 25 fighters when two handing, 3 more when level 28, which are both fine if you ask me for being a trade off for not going 7wm or not multiclassing at all. Its the +1 ac at level 10 that might be in question, since you can do all sorts of things with only ten levels of fighter. Even still it might not be that big of a deal, but I'm sure its easy enough to make the bonus only apply when its 2 or higher.

[Jagel]

I do not have strong feeling either way. I’d love to see more weapons used but I think we are getting there with the grouping of weapon types etc.

Two-handers could perhaps use a buff.

I am just asking the questions a) what is the problem we are trying to solve, b) are the changes proposed a fix to said problem.

My take is that the shield AC bonus works as intended right now.

[Baseili]

I suppose its a comparison of 2 handed builds with the suggestion that 25 fighter should become the middle ground between the sustained damage (WM) or burst (Barb/divine might and shield) by allowing the shield AC to function on a weapon.

Having an additional 5 AC would certainly make a difference over the weaponmaster (including the proposed +1 shield AC from 20 fighter) without encroaching on the burst of the barbarian or divine shield/might combo. You could even add a battlemaster bonus at level 28 that grants the epic weapon feats plus improved crit to another specialised weapon.
(E.g. You have all the feats for 1h blunt but only focus and specialisation for 2 handed, level 28 would grant you the missing feats for the 2 handed)

[Elaetheus]

And i think the OP just wants to close the optimal gap

Like its one thing to give up plus 3 towershield of ac, bur then another 3 a.c. on top of that when its part of your class feature? He just wants that extra 3 ac regardless if shield or not. Which if said change is done, shield and board is still more optimal, but QoL is enhanced when two handing

Voilà, i was understood. For others, re-read again the skleen remark with respect to 25/5, the AC difference is +1 only.

However fighter 30 wins a lot more. Due to extra feats it gets more options to invest into extra AB via str. So I don’t know if I favour the extra +3 weapon enhancement.

Let me compute for you. 30 fighter ab with +3 two handed: 25+15+4+3+3+2=52. A lot, but not unheard of. Damage with say a great sword (probably another weapon is better) : 2-12+6+4+4+22+6=2-12+42, or almost 50 on average. Scim WMs enjoy more dmg due to crit and not much worse AB.

AC right now is like 11base+3tumble+8fp+3ad+3bonus+3helmad+3bonus+1dodge+1skleen+2armorskin+3-4bark=41-42. With the proposed change it would be 43-44, then add haste. Wm builds with shield still get more, not to mention the extra enchants on the shield.

Hp is like 600-630 for 16-18 base con. cannot use wands, will have to use scrolls. Will have to struggle with saves.

It’s not terribly op, I think the pdk-cot build is much better for example. But it is viable-ish and a simple, lazy solution.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Also two hander only get soft ab which is irrelevant when truestrike potion is thrown into the mix.

[Nitro]

Also two hander only get soft ab which is irrelevant when truestrike potion is thrown into the mix.

99.9% of the time you won't be using a truestrike potion. You'll be attacking regularly, even in PvP you won't be chugging TS potions every second round, but to land an important KD or disarm attempt. So I'd say that something that applies for the vast majority of the time is relevant.