No one uses the Assassins' Guild

[BHR55]

I think I failed to explain what I was trying to address above.

Specifically, if we no longer take all the money up front for contracts, to prevent someone who only has 100 gold to their name from putting up a 1,000,000 gold bounty on someone. Someone does the job, or their friend does and they just accept death to avoid paying up. In this case I think the player is willfully trying to make free money happen.

Another example would be someone with 500,000 gold to their name puts up a bounty for 400,000. Then immediately goes and buys a rune for 500,000. An assassin completes the job while they are out shopping and are now on the hook to pay up.

In both these cases I don't see the 'punishments' I proposed as being unreasonable, since you shouldn't spent money you don't have. YMMV

[magistrasa]

these ideas are starting to become very convoluted. They have too many moving parts, would take too long to implement (and therefore probably end up on the backburner) and are likely to have a lot of bugs.

Discussion of difficult and complex ideas helps to inspire reasonable solutions. Moreover, who's to say what our coders can or cannot achieve? I would discourage limiting oneself to simple and straightforward solutions, especially when the problems with the guild are so multifaceted in the first place.

[Diegovog]

How to stimulate interaction between the assassin and the person who placed the bounty:
As soon as a person places a bounty of over 50k, they get a token. This token, when activated, would ping all of the assassins online, giving them an exact location where the token was activated through a red message in the combat log in caps lock with the area (ex. "Underdark (Upper) Behind the Waterfall".
The assassins would get the chance to talk to the one who placed the bounty and receive further details on the target such as age, race, locations they often use, etc. Also, that would mean frequent users of the Guild would get to know and have favorite assassins they enjoyed working with. Or make special grim requests (make them run for their lives, use the most painful poison you have, make it quick and clean, etc)
On the other hand, those who prefer to remain anonymous could simply opt to not use the token at all.
Once the bounty is collected/gone the token vanishes.

How to stimulate the placing of bounties or a higher frequency of them:
Make it worthwhile and not a waste. Aka don't simply allow people to easily pay off their bounties. If someone wishes to pay it off, they should get a heavy economy hit. That way, if I plan on putting a bounty on someone rich, at least I know they will be more economically punished than me.
I suggest 2x the amount placed to pay it off. For ex. If someone puts 100k on a bounty, it will be 200k to pay it off. The gold paid off goes entirely to the guild.

People will still be able to easily pay it off anyway! How to balance things out:
Give a RL period so that the assassins have a chance to murder. So make it impossible to pay it for a time depending on the value. So you have a rich merchant/settlement leader who wants to log off and wait? Well, your government/organization/shop will certainly feel this absence.
The ratio I thought of was 1RL day per 100k. So a 300k bounty would require at least 3 RL days to pay it off. This could be tinkered. Too high? Too low?

[Anomandaris]

Should allow crowd sourcing bounties. Get multiple PCs to add to a bounty while active and alert assassins when this happens. The gold should be fully staked, but 75% or so refunded if job is not complete. That way it’s not a total loss to the patron or the guild but the incentive for rp and monetary gain favors completing the job. Maybe it’s 10/90 20/80 whatever.

Making the mark pay double to remove a bounty is a good idea. It should really hurt. Why would the guild take the same money to “not“ do the job they were hired? Seems a very weird ideology that would ruin the reputation of a gang of killers. Otherwise the guild could be accused of acting in bad faith. Get a contract, keep the gold, go to the mark and make them pay off. Double the gold and no work. A terrible misalignment of incentive that makes no sense. In fact, it’s more likely that the killers would have a policy to never drop the contract on principle no matter the gold offered. Maybe after x failed attempts it’s deemed to costly to pursue, but being bribed out of it? That guild would go under fast if not killed by its patrons.

Also adding a RL no payoff window based on bounty size that is tracked against IG playtime would be interesting. People could hide in their rooms and go afk but if they’re gonna be that poor of a sport about it then they’re gonna exploit any system.

[Zavandar]

People with contracts on them already stand to lose a lot more than the people that place them, both IC and OOC. Making it cost double to clear a contract is a bad idea. I understand the reasoning behind it, but that is too steep and easy to abuse.

I know that the intent for this thread was to make it MORE appealing to use the guild and be an assassin, but I think the stakes need to be higher for them with the amount of damage they can potentially do, mostly with throwing settlements into disarray.

I'm talking something like having an MoD if you accept a contract. Maybe then remove the MoD if it is fulfilled/abandoned. Make it so that you can only accept/turn in/abandon contracts at the guild.

There would, of course, need to be added incentives for this system to go into effect. I also think there need to be additional repercussions for dying to assassins. Maybe like longer rez penalties, hits to a bank account, etc.

I think one of the biggest issues around assassins too is how simultaneously frustrating and anticlimactic they can be. You can still just respawn when you die to one. Sure, some people might roll with it (and literally roll), but others may find the narrative unsatisfactory. So you go through all this effort to carry out a hit and then see them again the next day. Now you got gold which is cool and all, but it can still feel lame.

[Dreams]

That's always something that has struck me as strange - that the mark can just pay the same amount to remove the bounty. I can see double being extreme in cases of high bounties, where people may not have that sort of cash just lying about. Unless you're Brogendenstein haha.

A setup like:
- x is paid for original contract.
- Other people paying for the same hit have their gold amount stack with x, but they are not told that it is a stacking amount. As far as they know, they've just placed the hit on the target.
- On completion, Assassin receives 0.75x.
- Target can buyout the contract for 1.5x.

Basically that sets it up so that you effectively have the target paying up double of what the assassin would have been paid for the contract, but you're not necessarily having to break the bank. It seems like a reasonable middleground? It also allows for multiple placements of contracts.

[The GrumpyCat]

I think one of the biggest issues around assassins too is how simultaneously frustrating and anticlimactic they can be. You can still just respawn when you die to one. Sure, some people might roll with it (and literally roll), but others may find the narrative unsatisfactory. So you go through all this effort to carry out a hit and then see them again the next day. Now you got gold which is cool and all, but it can still feel lame.

I get this? But I think personally I'd be less interested in seeing an extra consequence to dying from Assassin - and rather more consequence to dying in general.

But before we jump to this, we have to remember the old balence.

Little consequence to dying in pvp = People (possibly) not taking PvP seriously, people being frustrated by that, possible lack of immersion in this world.

Lots of Conseuqence to Dying in PvP - Having less controle over your own characters narrative. Putting much more weight on 'PvP' builds.

It's a very difficult balence.

[Dreams]

Is control over your own characters narrative something that we should strive for? It seems to me that we have absolute control over what our characters do, how they act, how they react to the world around them. Everything else is an environmental factor and out of our control. We're playing a role in the world, we're not controlling the whole story, only our little perspective of it.

Little concequence of dying certainly leads to some people not taking death seriously at all, but there isn't so much that is done to encourage a more realistic approach to death at the moment.

I think death is one of those environmental factors, your actions lead you to it, and you are open to RP out your reactions afterward. A hit to the bank account for the cost of ressurections might be a good idea? IC it could be explained that some local cleric has brought you back to life, and a tithe is paid to whatever Church.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Not to be that guy, but I'd really like to dial back and actually figure out what the objective (narratively, mechanically, both) of the Assassin's Guild actually is.

Personally, I have always found its existence to be naturally incongruent with Arelith. Treatment of death is an opt-in roleplay structure on this server, not an opt-out of. Having a mechanical guild based on delivering a consequence that can be treated nominally doesn't seem like a proper use of time and resources. Sure, death can be mechanically significant when tied to another system (i.e. war) but I've a feeling oftentimes it's not.

[Dr. B]

I'm talking something like having an MoD if you accept a contract. Maybe then remove the MoD if it is fulfilled/abandoned. Make it so that you can only accept/turn in/abandon contracts at the guild.

That's going to empty out the guild faster than a fart in an overheated room.

What is the objective of an assassin's guild?

The purpose of the guild is so that assassins can find and roleplay with each other.

There were many attempts prior to its introduction by PCs to form their own guilds, but these never lasted: due to the secretive nature of the assassin profession, it was extremely difficult for these characters to find each other , recruit new members, and advertise their services. Combine that with the difficulty of the assassin's job, and these player-created guilds were always short-lived and saw very little activity.

The current assassin's guild has gone some way in remedying this. There are now guildmembers interacting with each other, with relationships forming and narratives taking shape, largely thanks to the new contract system. However, those contracts are very easy, and people pursue them solo. Going after PCs, on the other hand, generally requires people to work in groups, which results in roleplay. There are some very good roleplayers in the guild (I think that is in part due to the DM vetting system) and I would like for them to have more reason to interact.

[Zavandar]

i don't consider mostly emptying out the guild a bad thing. i haven't had good experiences with its membership, and i know many others that feel the same way. i think the stakes need to be higher on both sides. it would actually be very easy for a small amount of people to throw the whole island's leadership out of whack.

[Anomandaris]

i don't consider mostly emptying out the guild a bad thing. i haven't had good experiences with its membership, and i know many others that feel the same way. i think the stakes need to be higher on both sides. it would actually be very easy for a small amount of people to throw the whole island's leadership out of whack.

Casual slam on an entire group of players? Let's all be nice! Assassins are not going to be loved by all because well.. you either are one of them and biased, rarely interact with them or know who they are, or are killed by them and (likely) upset about it. Cold hard reality is that people get angry when they lose and PvP hurts a lot of feelings even when done "properly." Does that mean this group should be curtailed or PvP should change? No... because the same people who would complain often like it when they do the same thing and win.

We all need to take our victories and defeats with more grace. I'm sure there are many instances where an Assassin "could" have done more to RP the experience for the target or so on. The same could be said for any number of city guard, paladins (insert faction) or anyone else on the server that wants to win.

Let's try to keep it focused on ideas to positively enrich the experience for this dedicated group of our community rather than offer excitement at their removal from the ecosystem, lest this thread devolve or get shut down (disclaimer: I do not play an assassin).

[Dr. B]

i don't consider mostly emptying out the guild a bad thing. i haven't had good experiences with its membership, and i know many others that feel the same way.

Anecdotal accounts of PvP can never be a reliable basis on which to make judgments about a particular server policy or feature, or treated as evidence in a discussion, simply because they are notoriously unreliable.

[Skullduggery]

I'm talking something like having an MoD if you accept a contract. Maybe then remove the MoD if it is fulfilled/abandoned. Make it so that you can only accept/turn in/abandon contracts at the guild.

This sounds terrible. MoDs are used as punishment. I think it sets a horrible precedence to be using it as a tool for players who literally went through an application process for a class that is centered around PvP. Not to mention, it says a lot of what you think about the players in the assassin's guild to suggest such a thing in the first place.

There is a solution, but I don't think this is it.

[Zavandar]

MoD's are used when outcasts want to remove their tag. that's not a punishment

i also haven't been killed by assassins. i've seen a lot of them one line and do minimal RP before engaging, when making assassinations fun for both parties is literally part of the application. i think people that deny how often this occurs are being obtuse and/or defensive. i challenge you to discuss assassin experiences in an empirical fashion, if you are otherwise going to dismiss my personal experiences and the many screenshots of lame assassinations i've seen.

either way, I suggested MoDs as a way to raise the stakes, not because i dislike the guild. i suggested adding incentives for a reason. i don't want people to be punished for being assassins. their ability to disrupt is simply far greater than the consequences of failure.

[Dr. B]

i challenge you to discuss assassin experiences in an empirical fashion, if you are otherwise going to dismiss my personal experiences

But Zav: to believe your statements at face value would then be to dismiss the person or people they are statements about. Do you see the issue here? It's not about poo-pooing those who deliver that testimony; it's about dispensing or withholding judgment in a way that is fair. The DMs, who watch everything from a bird's eye and have access to the server logs, are, ultimately, the only people who can objectively evaluate claims of the sort you are making.

I am not claiming you're lying, or saying things you don't believe, but I have no idea how accurate your statements are, or the statements of the people you are speaking for, and given the high emotions that tend to surround PvP, I have reason to abstain from judgment.

and the many screenshots of lame assassinations i've seen.

Well, I haven't seen these screenshots, I don't know if there are many screenshots (how much counts as "many"?), I don't know when the screenshots are from, I don't know if the screenshots are recent, I don't know whether the screenshots feature current members of the guild, and that even if I saw a screenshot, I might not know whether it omits certain things.

The point I'm making here extends far beyond this discussion. It should be treated as a dictum of good sense that whenever you are reading anything on these forums, the Discord, or in tells, anecdotal testimony about PvP is unreliable.

[Zavandar]

alright

[Diegovog]

i also haven't been killed by assassins. i've seen a lot of them one line and do minimal RP before engaging, when making assassinations fun for both parties is literally part of the application. i think people that deny how often this occurs are being obtuse and/or defensive. i challenge you to discuss assassin experiences in an empirical fashion, if you are otherwise going to dismiss my personal experiences and the many screenshots of lame assassinations i've seen.

As an assassin I can guarantee you the number of times I tried to RP extensively prior to an engagement far outnumber the times people RPed in return. Most people don't care about your RP when they feel their character lives are by a thread.

[Wuthering]

Of course RP must obviously happen because of PVP rules and to make it part of a story and not just a straight-up gank and I'm not defending low-quality assassination RP if it happens.

But I honestly don't know how much extensive RP you are supposed to have between a hired contract killer and victim. The assassin is working for the one who places the contract. There should be good RP reasons for that contract, the assassin is just a proxy. A few lines exchanged before an assassination is attempted doesn't mean the incident isn't part of a much bigger story.

[Sofawiel]

For the guild to function as I would like to see it function, steps need to be taken to reframe it's narrative. This starts by addressing the issues with the placing of contracts as already noted here, but needs to go on to further define "what" the guild is and "why" it has the clout it does in world (i.e the settlement disruption powers it has). Contract killing always should be a part of what it does, but that's not all it does (or should do)

Awhile ago, jack oat proposed assassin changes with paths akin to Harpers. While paths are perhaps not necessary for the class, path options as to what the guild can be paid to do would be ideal, and give ways for the guild to play part in larger stories outside of pvp.

While, admittedly, a lot of this could and can be started via a dedicated group of PC's via to avenues I think it is important to consider when considering changes. If the guild, in world, are the dark-harper/thieves guild specialist for hire as is suggested by current npc dialogue then mechanics should reflect this in ways interesting for all involved - contractor, contractee, and Target.

Tiered contracting options of the assassination/infiltration/diplomatic categories would be amazing. Perhaps if they were faction linked (so you could target a faction rather than a person)...I'm not going to brainstorm specifics. I do think that any changes made though need to be done in a way that better sets up the internal narrative of the guild hall however

[Hazard]

The whole 'being able to pay a hit off' thing annoys me. If I had a character that was serious about assassinations, they'd assassinate the assassin's guild for scamming people and not doing their job.

[Dr. B]

Eh, I wouldn't bother. The guild could just pay themselves off.

[Liareth]

I do think that paying off bounties is a very stupid mechanic from an IC perspective. An established guild of assassins that double-dipped on bounties and didn't see the job through would quickly find itself without customers and with a couple of dragon summons bashing down its door to claim a refund!

[Queen Titania]

There does need to be some counter play in my opinion

Perhaps something like:

The original payer being able to call off the hit: If they resolve their dilemma with target, they may wish to change their mind, or if the target figures out who put the hit on them, they should be able to potentially intimidate them to dropping it.

A time limit: All contracts should expire after a shorter X time, I.E. six game months: If you can't pay it off, it should die sooner. Not too quick that assassins can't work and do the build up for the RP, but not too slow that it can languish on you for a long time.

The min bounty limit should be 100,000 or 50,000 from ten thousand. I'd make it even higher for settlement leaders. Since they can't pay it off, it's a much bigger deal and shouldn't be initiated with merely ten thousand.

[Diegovog]

There does need to be some counter play in my opinion

Perhaps something like:

The original payer being able to call off the hit: If they resolve their dilemma with target, they may wish to change their mind, or if the target figures out who put the hit on them, they should be able to potentially intimidate them to dropping it.

A time limit: All contracts should expire after a shorter X time, I.E. six game months: If you can't pay it off, it should die sooner. Not too quick that assassins can't work and do the build up for the RP, but not too slow that it can languish on you for a long time.

The min bounty limit should be 100,000 or 50,000 from ten thousand. I'd make it even higher for settlement leaders. Since they can't pay it off, it's a much bigger deal and shouldn't be initiated with merely ten thousand.

Maybe instead of IG six months, something like IG character played time. That way they don't just log off and lay low offline.