On Firbolgs

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Nitro
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Firbolg Race Type

Post by Nitro » Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:35 pm

So, in 3ed Firbolg are listed with the racial type "Giant" rather than the "Fey" type they were given for some reason on Arelith. Even in 4ed where their lore is that they come from they Feywild they just have the "Human" racial type.

So, what's up with the Fey racial type? It'd make more sense to have them as Giant.
(And the less said about 5e firbolgs that were turned from Celtic giants into big blue smurfs the better)

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On Firbolgs

Post by Za-Lord~s Guard » Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:20 pm

Firstly, I would like to say that firbolgs are an addition that I've long though would be a good option as a special surface race and I'm very pleased that they've been added.

That said, I'm puzzled and a little concerned with the decision to use 4e lore. So far as I am aware, this is the one and only instance of 4e lore being used in Arelith. While this makes certain sense in the cases of creatures that didn't have any extensive detail laid out in previous editions, firbolgs have a fairly meaty bit of lore written about them.

In particular, there is a Code that the firbolgs have adopted as they rejected the Ordning used by other giants (which itself deems the firbolgs wicked by giant standards). This lends itself to a lot of storytelling and developing a character by giving a backdrop for the sort of culture that this race hails from.

While there are of course exceptions within any group (Moonshae's firbolgs in particular stand out from the setting's norm), the choice for 4e lore has standarized the exception for Arelith; there can be no lawful firbolgs (it's the only alignment path they're restricted from), and this very much calls into question their culture as a society built upon a unifying code.

This introduction of 4e lore to the module does raise other questions and concerns from a storytelling perspective (With respect to Arelith's timeline position of roughly 1373 DR) is 4e lore now an accepted part of Arelith's continuity?
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Re: On Firbolgs

Post by Irongron » Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:43 pm

Arelith's mechanical continuity is not exactly firmly in 3e, and to be clear by recognising firbolg culture as it is outlined (roughly) in 4e, does not mean that we are including any events fom after our chosen time period.

As with many things, this will up for players of the race themselves to decide how they want to RP, we are hardly known for being adherents to the more arcane areas of lore.

In the various editions of D&D Firbolgs are giant-kin, with fey blood, as they are here.

We have chosen to classify their racial type as 'fey' over 'giant' in regards to mechanics surrounding racial enemies etc, but that does not mean they are not still, quite clearly a type of giant, we have, after all, given them the giant language. If a Firbolg wants to RP the 4e Wild Hunt aspect of the race they are welcome to, if they want to lean into 3e lore they can do that too. Classifying them as fey, I think helps highlight their magical nature - This is race that I think could offer so much meaningful RP to the setting, and I would hate to see them pidgeon-holed as beanstalk giants.

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Re: On Firbolgs

Post by R0GUE » Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:20 am

Just curious, wasn't 3e where they introduced firbolgs as blueish colored and more beastial looking? Was the decision to make them more or less just tall humans based on the models at hand? Not complaining at all, it's just something I'm curious about as a lore hound.

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Re: On Firbolgs

Post by three wolf moon » Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:27 am

With respect, Irongron, they never were 'beanstalk giants'. They had a very unique and interesting culture revolving around individuality and morality. Here's an exerpt:
Long ago, the firbolgs developed a stringent code of conduct that governs their actions. Although the code is obviously thousands of years old, its exact origins are now obscured by the mists of time. At the heart of the code is the idea that individuals should be judged based upon their actions rather than upon their birth; to the firbolgs, people's deeds are the truth of their being. Another of the code's important concepts is the idea that the individual is nothing without society, and the preservation of society must be of the highest priority of all individuals. Every firbolg clan reacts differently to the code, but all see it as vital to their survival and elevation. Most firbolgs keep the code to themselves, believing it is virtuous to simply live the code rather than preach it. Merely talking about deeds and philosophies rather than living them is sometimes looked upon as a form of cowardice.

A firbolg who breaks the code faces grave retribution. Minor transgressions might be settled by spending a period of time as a slave to the tribe. Major transgressions inevitably require banishment. Of course, few of these penalties are ever necessary since the code is so indelibly ingrained into most firbolgs from birth that few could even think of straying.

Most firbolg clans require their members to carry the code with them in a written form. For example, the members of one clan (the Kappebror) write copies of the code on fine parchment and seal them in amulets they wear around their necks, while another (the Helligbror) tattoo the code upon their chests in red dye, and yet another (the Kriggabror) etch the words upon finely made bracers they swear never to remove.

The Firbolg Code (in the original): Prakt, Strev, Rang, glang byrd. (Bravery, Effort, and Honor over birth.)

This dictum illustrates the firbolgs' disdain for the concept of ordning and all it represents. To the firbolgs, actions make the individual.

Also, firbolgs see the honor and mettle of an individual as representative of the honor and mettle of a tribe. This is why the concept of bravery is so important to them. If observers should notice a firbolg acting weak or cowardly, they would probably assume the firbolg's entire clan to be weak and cowardly, perhaps prompting an attack on the clan. The firbolgs believe that the only way to avoid unnecessary wars and battles is to convince all observers that all firbolgs are fiercely brave and capable.

Stomm rang glang du. (The tribe's honor above your honor.)

The whole of the clan is more important than an individual member. To honor the tribe or clan, the firbolg must do great deeds and, when given praise, explain that the deed would have been impossible if not for the support, education, and resources of the clan. This provision has also been interpreted to mean that the will of the individual is secondary to the will of the clan. Some renegade firbolgs contend that this is not the case, and that the will of the individual is more important than the will of the clan.

Blod ettin er blod kong. (The blood of a runt is the blood of a king.)

This provision reminds the firbolgs to treat all intelligent creatures equally. Just as Hartkiller was a runt himself, so may the lowest beggar be elevated to the throne.

Gi tusen val nul. (Give one thousand for nothing.)

Firbolgs prize charity as a virtue, though they feel that any charitable act is nullified if the recipient is aware of the contributor's identity. The act itself is the virtue, not the glory associated with the act. Allowing oneself to take credit for a virtuous action opens the spirit to harm. For that reason, while gregarious with friends, most firbolgs are quiet in public, not wishing to call attention to their often heroic deeds.

Trut zund stommpaart. (Truth is the honor of the tribe).

Much of firbolg society is built around a backbone of truthful communication. Without such communication, the firbolgs believe their entire society will topple. As a consequence, firbolgs don't lie, by either omission or commission. In fact, a firbolg who lies breaks out in a cold sweat; his voice cracks, his limbs tremble. The very act of dissembling causes great physical discomfort.
Furthermore, while I wholeheartedly agree that players should not be necessarily forced into roleplaying a single stereotype, a consistent base is important to establish in any setting. How would a Firbolg who RPs a "traditional" Firbolg react to the 4e Firbolg, when the latter flies in the face of everything the former stands for? Having 4e Firbolgs around also assumes the existence of not one but two gods that do not exist in 3e forgotten realms (Melora and the Raven Queen) since they worship a triad of deities that includes them. This existence of a sort of 'time warp' is more than just allowing people to RP their Firbolg however they so choose; it is damaging to the integrity of the setting itself and creates confusion.

Of course it is your server, and you can choose how to establish Firbolgs however you please, but I ask that you at least establish them firmly in one area or another. If you are very attached to the idea of the 4e firbolg, I might suggest that the team come up with some Arelith-specific lore for them that marries the two concepts without leaving a bunch of unanswered questions and inconsistencies in regards to where the server stands in regards to the Forgotten Realms.
R0GUE wrote:Just curious, wasn't 3e where they introduced firbolgs as blueish colored and more beastial looking? Was the decision to make them more or less just tall humans based on the models at hand? Not complaining at all, it's just something I'm curious about as a lore hound.
No, that was 5e. From the time they were introduced until then they were vikingish looking big humans. Also, the 'bestial'/cow-looking firbolgs are a Critical Role-verse thing.

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Re: On Firbolgs

Post by R0GUE » Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:39 am

Oh ok I thought I remembered them as blue colored in one of the FR supplements. But I'm getting older and my memory isn't what it once was haha.

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Re: On Firbolgs

Post by Irongron » Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:51 am

three wolf moon wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:27 am
With respect, Irongron, they never were 'beanstalk giants'. They had a very unique and interesting culture revolving around individuality and morality.
I only meant by that giving them the racial type 'fey' over 'giant' (as I said they are giants with 'fey blood), I hope that we are encouraging players not to RP them as conventional giants, it was not intended as a commentary on the 3e lore. The truth is that many of our players don't know lore at all, especially for something as obscure as a firbolg, and nor are they expected to learn it.

I expect we will see many approaches to the RP of firbolg, and I'd be perfectly happy to see it done where weight was given to 3e or 4e, indeed I don't think they need be in conflict. I will say though, that I think the majority of players will do neither, and instead forge their own path.

When it comes to selecting a deity for them, we'll do that further down the road, and we'll take advice from players more familar with their lore.

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Re: On Firbolgs

Post by Anomandaris » Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:11 am

Irongron wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:51 am
three wolf moon wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:27 am
With respect, Irongron, they never were 'beanstalk giants'. They had a very unique and interesting culture revolving around individuality and morality.
I only meant by that giving them the racial type 'fey' over 'giant' (as I said they are giants with 'fey blood), I hope that we are encouraging players not to RP them as conventional giants, it was not intended as a commentary on the 3e lore. The truth is that many of our players don't know lore at all, especially for something as obscure as a firbolg, and nor are they expected to learn it.

I expect we will see many approaches to the RP of firbolg, and I'd be perfectly happy to see it done where weight was given to 3e or 4e, indeed I don't think they need be in conflict. I will say though, that I think the majority of players will do neither, and instead forge their own path.

When it comes to selecting a deity for them, we'll do that further down the road, and we'll take advice from players more familar with their lore.
Just to clarify, that means that any races, like Dwarves, w/ bonuses against giantkin won't receive them fighting these giants because they have feyblood in them?

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Re: On Firbolgs

Post by Wuthering » Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:36 am

To be honest I am surprised by this picking-and-choosing from different versions of D&D.. I thought the server was being much more militant about sticking to this particular edition of Forgotten Realms lore (eg removal of popular deities because they weren't 3.x canon among other things).

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Re: On Firbolgs

Post by MissEvelyn » Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:45 am

The way I understand it, the devs aren't picking and choosing from D&D editions. The choice to make Firbolg fey is purely a mechanical one, and not against lore, as even in 3e, the Firbolg are a giant race with Fey properties.


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Re: On Firbolgs

Post by Nitro » Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:25 am

The "Fey Blood" addition came with 5ed, in Volo's Guide to monsters. Prior to that, none of the source material mentions them having any fey ancestry. Unless you were looking at pathfinder lore, which is in an entirely different setting and should also be disregarded.

Please refer to 3rd edition Monster Manual 2, p. 101–102 if you want clarification or evidence.

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Re: On Firbolgs

Post by Baseili » Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:15 pm

It was actually in the Monster Manual 2 4th edition that Firbolgs were listed as Large Fey Humanoid, in Volo's they aren't listed as anything nor are they large for some reason.

As for the various dieties the Raven Queen (The Crone) is a 3e goddess so there would be little issue adding her, Melora on the otherhand muddies the waters as she is very much a 4e god but can easily be switched out for Rillifane Rallathil as he covers wilderness and woodlands in his portfolio.

The other upside to drawing from the 4e rules for firbolgs is that it draws away from the constraints of no armour beyond light and no shields as to wear either to by 3e firbolg rules is considered cowardice not to mention the outright fear of other humanoids, everything else largely remains the same. I could never reconcile the 3e version for a 5% request due to the armour and shield thing, you'd basically need a spellsword-esk type of AC granted for an empty offhand to play anything that isn't 2h or dual wield.

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Re: On Firbolgs

Post by Irongron » Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:54 pm

These two articles are great at explaining how, and why, Firbolg lore changed through editions. The first of which also goes some way to explain my preference for the 4e lore, which I think is vastly superior, & makes for a more interesting race (though I'm coming at it as a huge Slaine fan so will freely admit my bias)

https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2019/06 ... rbolg.html

https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/287-put ... ution-of-a

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Re: On Firbolgs

Post by MissEvelyn » Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:19 pm

Nitro wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:25 am
Unless you were looking at pathfinder lore, which is in an entirely different setting and should also be disregarded.
Turns out that was what I was thinking of. My mistake.


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Re: On Firbolgs

Post by LichBait » Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:23 pm

The only thing I miss that I know of Firbolg from lore is their ability to shift their size up and down, so they could pose as burly humans in settlements.

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Re: On Firbolgs

Post by Za-Lord~s Guard » Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:17 pm

Irongron wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:54 pm
These two articles are great at explaining how, and why, Firbolg lore changed through editions. The first of which also goes some way to explain my preference for the 4e lore, which I think is vastly superior, & makes for a more interesting race (though I'm coming at it as a huge Slaine fan so will freely admit my bias)

https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2019/06 ... rbolg.html

https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/287-put ... ution-of-a
I wasn’t sure who Slaine is, so I googled it. It pulled up a rapper, and he doesn’t look much like a firbolg so I’m a little lost on the connection.
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Re: On Firbolgs

Post by R0GUE » Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:30 pm

Za-Lord~s Guard wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:17 pm
Irongron wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:54 pm
These two articles are great at explaining how, and why, Firbolg lore changed through editions. The first of which also goes some way to explain my preference for the 4e lore, which I think is vastly superior, & makes for a more interesting race (though I'm coming at it as a huge Slaine fan so will freely admit my bias)

https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2019/06 ... rbolg.html

https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/287-put ... ution-of-a
I wasn’t sure who Slaine is, so I googled it. It pulled up a rapper, and he doesn’t look much like a firbolg so I’m a little lost on the connection.
Slaine Mac Dela, of the Fir Bholg was the first Irish King. It's the basis for DnD Firbolgs.

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Re: On Firbolgs

Post by Nitro » Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:32 pm

Irongron wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:54 pm
These two articles are great at explaining how, and why, Firbolg lore changed through editions. The first of which also goes some way to explain my preference for the 4e lore, which I think is vastly superior, & makes for a more interesting race (though I'm coming at it as a huge Slaine fan so will freely admit my bias)

https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2019/06 ... rbolg.html

https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/287-put ... ution-of-a
Can we be expecting to break away further from 3ed lore in the future then? Will tieflings get the 4ed treatment, or dragonborn get introduced at some point?

And how are Firbolg supposed to roleplay, when we have 3ed sources about their identity as giantkin with no fey connections, and 4ed lore that does the opposite. Will there be an article on the wiki about which one is correct and should be used in roleplay? Because that's not been required so far since all of the lore on Arelith currently conforms to the 3rd edition, everyone is on the same page.

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Re: On Firbolgs

Post by Ork » Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:07 pm

I think it's fair to say that if we are going to break away from 3rd edition, we'll be informed of it. This isn't a slippery slope.

It's canonized in 3.5e that Firbolg act differently depending on their origin. You've gentle nature giants on one hand, and brutish, neanderthalian firbolgs on the Moonshae isles. Now you also have fey-touched wild hunt-esque firbolgs as well.

It doesn't have to be so rigid.

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Re: On Firbolgs

Post by Nitro » Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:16 pm

Ork wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:07 pm
I think it's fair to say that if we are going to break away from 3rd edition, we'll be informed of it. This isn't a slippery slope.

It's canonized in 3.5e that Firbolg act differently depending on their origin. You've gentle nature giants on one hand, and brutish, neanderthalian firbolgs on the Moonshae isles. Now you also have fey-touched wild hunt-esque firbolgs as well.

It doesn't have to be so rigid.
Act differently, yes. But that doesn't make them actual Fey. If a Large Fey creature was what the intention was to introduce, why not do just that? Like for example Malgoren or Nature Spirits or even Lunar Ravagers (MM4), or any other of the dozens of available Fey creatures in 3ed instead of taking a non-fey creature and cannibalizing it to be Fey with the justification of later editions lore, which hasn't been done anywhere else on the server.

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Re: On Firbolgs

Post by Ebonstar » Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:03 pm

my only thought is why they start in cordor and not brog
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Re: On Firbolgs

Post by Skullduggery » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:12 am

Ebonstar wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:03 pm
my only thought is why they start in cordor and not brog
Their height would intimidate the dwarves.
Irongron wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:43 pm
If a Firbolg wants to RP the 4e Wild Hunt aspect of the race they are welcome to, if they want to lean into 3e lore they can do that too.
Jokes aside, I'm also confused as to why we'd be using 4e lore and not allowing lawful considering their Code. It's also confusing that players can "RP between 3e/3.5e and 4e", since things won't be uniform and each edition has its own notable differences - not even including that the update said to "ignore feywild lore" when 4e is basically entirely centered around it.

Why not go 5e where their fey heritage is fairly obvious given skintone, facial structure, and distinctive ear shape? It's not supremely special, in that it'd be like Tieflings (before their move to Major reward tier) where people can select an odd skintone and have it still be canonical and fairly "normal". Besides, we're supposed to be getting a new head update sometime in the near future, right?

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Re: On Firbolgs

Post by The1Kobra » Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:26 am

So, reading this, should Firbolgs be subject to the monstrous race treatment most monster races receive? Thrown out like outcasts? Maybe lighter prejudice like what half-orcs receive? How would most NPCs react to them?

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Re: On Firbolgs

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:37 am

Giant training not applying is a little silly in my opinion.

Also if its not concretely based of 4ed. Dont mention it on your article page. DnD players have a very poor opinion on said edition and Arelith benefits little associating with it

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Re: On Firbolgs

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:51 am

1: I really like 4th edition persoally
2: I know quite a few other people who do.
3: This is a tiny bit of 4th ed lore for one greater award race (Which is frankly not even a well known race) and is entirely optional. It's not like we've converted the entire system to it.

It's hardly a big deal people. I really do not forsee this becoming a regular occurence.

As for Monster Races: Firbolgs aren not. They may be treated with awe, incrdulity, even a little fear and concern, but they're unlikely to be driven out of town, as a whole.
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