Remove -polymorph from lycanthropes.

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matheusgraef
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Remove -polymorph from lycanthropes.

Post by matheusgraef » Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:51 pm

Many people suggest the lycanthropy system could be vastly improved, but since this isn't in the current scope of the developers, I suggest the -polymorph feature gets removed from werewolves altogether.

My main problem with being able to consciously transform into a werewolf is that far too often players use this to their benefit, it's supposed to be a bloody curse, not a blessing or a boon.

Not to mention it has griefing implications.

The last few times I interacted with werewolves, they were RPing "wolves on the prowl" except they were literally buffed to their toes, destroyed my lowbie character and after I sent them tells they replied with "we can't control what we attack!!!" etc. Which seems, to me, like a really cheap way to circumvent the current PVP rules.

Werewolves are cool, and I've seen it roleplayed properly, so I'm not saying it's 100% poop. So to please all audiences, I have two suggestions:

- Make it so there's a special NPC you can speak to that teaches you how to -polymorph.
- Turn lycanthropy with -polymorph into an award, but make it incurable, like a "it runs in the family" sorta deal. So then it's thematically fitting; a curse turned into a blessing.

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Re: Remove -polymorph from lycanthropes.

Post by AstralUniverse » Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:22 am

matheusgraef wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:51 pm
Many people suggest the lycanthropy system could be vastly improved, but since this isn't in the current scope of the developers, I suggest the -polymorph feature gets removed from werewolves altogether.
If the function is removed, how are people going to turn in/out of werewolf? They need a button to do that somehow otherwise they'll be stuck as werewolves every full moon with no way to turn back.
matheusgraef wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:51 pm
My main problem with being able to consciously transform into a werewolf is that far too often players use this to their benefit, it's supposed to be a bloody curse, not a blessing or a boon.
It is not said anywhere that Lycanthropy is a curse. Contagious? yes. A supernatural disease? sure why not. But whether or not it's a curse is entirely up to the character who carries it, to decide for themselves if it's a curse or a blessing. Using this to your character's benefit is entirely fine.
matheusgraef wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:51 pm
The last few times I interacted with werewolves, they were RPing "wolves on the prowl" except they were literally buffed to their toes, destroyed my lowbie character and after I sent them tells they replied with "we can't control what we attack!!!" etc. Which seems, to me, like a really cheap way to circumvent the current PVP rules.
If someone turned Lycan on you and killed you with no RP you can report it. The DMs will be able to tell right away if it was an intentional -polymorph or just a Moonlight surprise going wild. Using this mechanic to kill someone without RP, intentionally, is very much against the rules and can be detected in many ways, the most obvious one is to check the date.
matheusgraef wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:51 pm
- Make it so there's a special NPC you can speak to that teaches you how to control your lycanthropy.
This is a terrible, terrible idea because it means that very shortly all lycans will be able to control themselves and it seems really ridiculous. Not to mention the problem you present will remain because they will still be able to grief and pretend they dont control anything, if that was their initial goal. It seems like it will only do harm and 0 good. On top of that, if people can get perma control they will start looking for builds to compliment it. So you'll only see lycans with 1-2 builds or no lycans at all. Doesnt seem rich for the server.
matheusgraef wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:51 pm
- Turn lycanthropy with -polymorph into an award, but make it incurable, like a "it runs in the family" sorta deal. So then it's thematically fitting; a curse turned into a blessing.
You can already choose for yourself if to cure it or not, and if it's a curse or not. Why slap an award on something like that.
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Re: Remove -polymorph from lycanthropes.

Post by Nitro » Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:54 am

I'm almost certain that if someone is using -polymorph as a werewolf to get around the "interact before PVP" rule you can report them for it and they'll get punished. They know full well what pressing that polymorph button will do.

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Re: Remove -polymorph from lycanthropes.

Post by Apothys » Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:23 am

Its rare you meet "Wolves on the prowl" if im honest.

I usually only use it on Full Moons now or late at night when the moon reaches its zenith or perhaps if my toon gets angry and feels it fits the situation. Its rare though.

I look at it as a gift and a curse, A gift from Malar to those he finds worthy of his power and a curse because, damn it, im gonna start killing and chances are i aint gonna stop. In fact RP wise i shouldn't try to stop really even if my friends are around, so i look for that elusive will save to come to my senses then try and stop the rampage.

I know your angry about your encounter with a werewolf, but fact is they cant control who they attack and im sorry you didnt get anything out of a sudden attack by a ferocious lycan. Alot of people enjoy or get a buzz out of fleeing from a Wolf or battling one or maybe in organising a hunt after one is spotted. In fact the RP to such an event can transcend that encounter even further as players look to there neighbours wondering who that Werewolf is and if they themselves start having more feral thoughts.

What im trying to say is, we all get something that happen to us that isnt nice from our perspective and wish to start nerfing or engaging DMs with complaints (even me) however 'sometimes' its best to just embrace the event and make it part of your story and enrich others with what happened. Start a Werewolf hunting Guild! possibilities are endless.

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Re: Remove -polymorph from lycanthropes.

Post by matheusgraef » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:10 pm

Guys, I'm not angry or nagging about that encounter specifically, it was just an example. Apparently people really like -polymorph - I didn't really know that!
Last edited by matheusgraef on Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Remove -polymorph from lycanthropes.

Post by matheusgraef » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:16 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:22 am
This is a terrible, terrible idea because it means that very shortly all lycans will be able to control themselves and it seems really ridiculous. Not to mention the problem you present will remain because they will still be able to grief and pretend they dont control anything, if that was their initial goal. It seems like it will only do harm and 0 good. On top of that, if people can get perma control they will start looking for builds to compliment it. So you'll only see lycans with 1-2 builds or no lycans at all. Doesnt seem rich for the server.
I was talking about a NPC that teaches you how to -polymorph. This way, characters would be stuck to involuntary transformation until they learned how to "tame" it (aka -polymorph at will).

Always seemed odd to me how you suddenly know how to turn into a werewolf as soon as you're infected, without ever having done it before.

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Re: Remove -polymorph from lycanthropes.

Post by Kenji » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:21 pm

I'm uncertain if it was the same occasion as the OP's or not, but my poor lowbie TF did encounter one.

She and her party encountered a fully grown werewolf, that is. It was pleasantly frightening, and the werewolf player actively emoted *sniffs* as it attempted to hunt down the rest of the party that either turned invisible or ran away.

Of course, two others died, and some parts of it felt wrong since it was a forced, no-interaction PvP at the heart of it. It was quick and the writ-doing lowbie party didn't have time to react or talk.

It can be a great RP tool if done right, but I can also see it turning into a tool for bullying and massacre with little to no RP interaction, of which it was hard to tell which is which with what I encountered. I didn't report it, seeing as it was one of those gray-area types of deal.

The idea of taming the lycanthropy is a good one, and maybe some script rework regarding werewolf should be considered.

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Re: Remove -polymorph from lycanthropes.

Post by Xarge VI » Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:37 pm

Personally feel it should be turned back how it was before. That during fullmoon the infected turns into a werewolf and few hours later turns back. Without the option to force the change.

However i think the added strength should be kept to keep the scariness level.

Maybe instead of forced attack action werewolf pc gets a server message that says you fail to resist the lure of blood. Etc. Allowing th pc wolf freely rp and maneuver themselves with the expectation that they are supposed to attack.

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Re: Remove -polymorph from lycanthropes.

Post by Revelations » Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:26 am

Casually quoting FR wiki using citations from the monster manual:
Werewolves are a type of shape-changing monster in Faerûn that are vulnerable to silver or enchanted weapons and can regenerate most wounds. Infected werewolves transform during the full moon involuntarily. Members of their race that are born with the curse can infect others and can control their shifting.
All werewolves on Arelith are infected werewolves. Them having -polymorph makes zero sense.

In addition to that, I too have witnessed low-levels being killed with no interaction by fully buffed -polymorphed werewolves who apparently "couldn't control whom they are attacking" but in one instance suddenly were very much able to run away when they were being shot from somewhere they couldn't reach (hint, they obviously made the save and could actually control their character). This particular example was half a year ago and I didn't report it when I should have.

All things considered, I agree that werewolves, and especially -polymorphed werewolves should be looked at, because the way it works is neither lore-consistent, nor, in my opinion, good for the server.

Edit to explain why it isn't good for the server: Werewolves that are fully buffed when they kill people in public areas and hide behind the fact that they supposedly cannot control their character obviously did everything to get to that point intentionally. New players who are killed that way are told that's how the system works. I don't know if I would stick around If I were a new player, experienced something like that, and someone explains that's how things roll around Arelith; with wanton high-level vs. lowbie PvP with no interaction being guarded by the rules or game mechanics.
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Re: Remove -polymorph from lycanthropes.

Post by AstralUniverse » Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:00 am

@Revelations, If the command is taken away from werewolves, I'd expect an auto-script that turns them back to their original form 1 hour after shifting in midnight. Otherwise they'll need that button, nothing else to do about that. Secondly, lowbies, and especially newbie lowbies, die to many silly things that can be felt as frustrating. Dying to a lvl 30 werewolf is one of them, and it's not much different than triggering a trap in a low lvl dungeon that deals slightly more than your total hp and it 1shot you. It feels bad and frustrating in both occasions, and many more silly ways to die feel unwelcome in the server but they are also a part of the game. I dont really have much sympathy for a new player that decides this aint the server for them if it is for such reasons. Maybe it really is not the server for them, regardless.
Revelations wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:26 am
I too have witnessed low-levels being killed with no interaction by fully buffed -polymorphed werewolves who apparently "couldn't control whom they are attacking" but in one instance suddenly were very much able to run away when they were being shot from somewhere they couldn't reach (hint, they obviously made the save and could actually control their character). This particular example was half a year ago and I didn't report it when I should have.
First of all, even when you cant control your avatar you can still spam left click and your avatar will sometimes do it. Happens under Confusion too (hint, the will save occurs every round again, the outcome decides your lvl of control for that round alone). Second of all, this is just like any other reportable bad pvp interaction - report it or move on. But not reporting it and putting the blame on the mechanic is not something I agree with in this particular case.
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Re: Remove -polymorph from lycanthropes.

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:30 am

Im against any foig for this cookie npc stuff

Just mean joe smoe who knows secret can make werewolves with control with his buddies all year long while some noob like me will discard the idea as an invalid concept never knowing where npc is. Its a silly gate.

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Re: Remove -polymorph from lycanthropes.

Post by Revelations » Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:08 pm

@AU
Thanks for the response.

In my opintion, no rule or game mechanic should exempt any player from the presuppositions of "interactive RP before PvP" and "be nice" which players read and accept to oblige when they log in to Arelith (and thus expect the IG behaviour of others to reflect that). It's perfectly fine to call out a rule or game mechanic in place for doing that based on observations.*

I also find the argument of other things being frustrating for new players not ideal; as low-rolls, random traps and other PvE mechanics work under a completely different premise than what I am speaking of here, which is players willfully forging situations that are essentially griefing.

This sentence will be the only commentary on the idea that abusing bugs (spam-clicking) to circumvent game mechanics is a good argument for any point. If you didn't mean to support any point with that, but instead wanted to show that you understand the game better than I do, I thank you for furthering my point with the added information on how the system can be abused.

As this will be my last post in this thread, I'll reiterate that In addition to how it affects the perceived server culture for old and new players, it simply doesn't fit in with the lore.

In conclusion, I'm in agreement with OP that -polymorph should be removed.

*Assassinations being the only, entirely deliberate, exception. New, unsuspecting players are very unlikely to get a bounty placed on their character.
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Re: Remove -polymorph from lycanthropes.

Post by SugarFiend » Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:14 pm

I would hate to see the voluntary option of shifting from werewolves taken away however I would like a bit more unpredictability in this path.

Since we've already strayed from canon for Arelith werewolves, why not stray some more? Perhaps the grip of Malar is so old and strong on the island (which it is) that those infected have a chance of involuntary shifting if they kill too many enemies in a given day/per a reset. It could have a bloodlust measurement of some kind that comes up in yellow text. This would allow the unpredictability that people are asking for (and curse/not a good thing to have status) while also allowing werewolf players the freedom to enjoy their concept.
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Re: Remove -polymorph from lycanthropes.

Post by AstralUniverse » Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:25 am

Revelations wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:08 pm
In my opintion, no rule or game mechanic should exempt any player from the presuppositions of "interactive RP before PvP" and "be nice" which players read and accept to oblige when they log in to Arelith (and thus expect the IG behaviour of others to reflect that). It's perfectly fine to call out a rule or game mechanic in place for doing that based on observations.*
Its just not so fair towards the mechanic to be judged like that because people sometimes break the rules (and should be reported so they dont do it again).

You sort of choose to read my post as if I'm defending the rule breakers and giving legitimacy to spamming left click and murdering lowbies out of boredom. No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm trying to tell you what happens in the game that may cause things to look like there was a malicious intent when maybe there wasnt. I'm saying that in this particular unique mechanic there's a little bit more susceptibility to abuse and that if we report rule breaks it wont be an issue.
Revelations wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:08 pm
I also find the argument of other things being frustrating for new players not ideal; as low-rolls, random traps and other PvE mechanics work under a completely different premise than what I am speaking of here, which is players willfully forging situations that are essentially griefing.
I dont see the difference between dying to a trap in the bramble wood and walking out of the outskirts and dying to a werewolf. If anything, dying to a werewolf can have more influence on the character's story than dying to a trap and can fuel them with future goals (aka become a werewolf hunter or being infected and needing to locate the cure, just on top of my head). Again, if the werewolf is being a jerk, report them and if you're not entirely sure rules were broken - report them, still. A DM can check the logs and see if the -polymorph was used or if it was a natural shapeshifting cuased by full moon and you can even see that for yourself when you're in the Death area, wondering why you just died to a lvl 30 with no RP prior, by checking the date, simply.
Revelations wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:08 pm
As this will be my last post in this thread, I'll reiterate that In addition to how it affects the perceived server culture for old and new players, it simply doesn't fit in with the lore.
I wont be expecting an answer then, but all in good vibes and your point was very clear and food for thought either way. I entirely accept the argument that this mechanic doesnt fit the lore, but in order for anything to change, it also need to make sense in game. And removing the command doesnt solve any problem, so I'll be looking forward to see if anyone has an interesting idea on how to make it more true to the lore but functional in game, and if at the same time it will cause less frustration to new players and close the abuse susceptibility then all the better but these two latter things arent the root of the lore issue.
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Re: Remove -polymorph from lycanthropes.

Post by matheusgraef » Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:21 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:25 am
Words
To further validate Revelations's point, your solutions are haphazard and only seem to accommodate the fact that the werewolf system in place is faulty.
AstralUniverse wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:25 am
You sort of choose to read my post as if I'm defending the rule breakers and giving legitimacy to spamming left click and murdering lowbies out of boredom.
No, it's exactly that. 1. "Just spam left click" is a bug. 2. You're encouraging its exploitation. 3. It is not common knowledge. I've been playing for years and I didn't know that.
AstralUniverse wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:25 am
I entirely accept the argument that this mechanic doesnt fit the lore, but in order for anything to change, it also need to make sense in game.
It already doesn't make sense, dear. Irongron himself said he isn't fond of the actual werewolf system but it isn't in the current scope of the developers to change it. From the official Arelith discord:

Image

If the answer to all your problems with a faulty mechanic is "just report it", then perhaps the mechanic should be looked at, don't you think? I understand you like it and you probably have fun with it but it needs a rework.

I give feedback towards giving the DMs less reports to deal with, and players a more streamlined experience.

Since werewolves get a free pass to PVP, maybe they should mechanically -hostile everything as soon as they polymorph.

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Re: Remove -polymorph from lycanthropes.

Post by AstralUniverse » Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:11 am

matheusgraef wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:21 pm
AstralUniverse wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:25 am
Words
To further validate Revelations's point, your solutions are haphazard and only seem to accommodate the fact that the werewolf system in place is faulty.
AstralUniverse wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:25 am
You sort of choose to read my post as if I'm defending the rule breakers and giving legitimacy to spamming left click and murdering lowbies out of boredom.
No, it's exactly that. 1. "Just spam left click" is a bug. 2. You're encouraging its exploitation. 3. It is not common knowledge. I've been playing for years and I didn't know that.
AstralUniverse wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:25 am
I entirely accept the argument that this mechanic doesnt fit the lore, but in order for anything to change, it also need to make sense in game.
It already doesn't make sense, dear. Irongron himself said he isn't fond of the actual werewolf system but it isn't in the current scope of the developers to change it. From the official Arelith discord:

Image

If the answer to all your problems with a faulty mechanic is "just report it", then perhaps the mechanic should be looked at, don't you think? I understand you like it and you probably have fun with it but it needs a rework.

I give feedback towards giving the DMs less reports to deal with, and players a more streamlined experience.

Since werewolves get a free pass to PVP, maybe they should mechanically -hostile everything as soon as they polymorph.
If you think the entire system is faulty, that's one thing. But the OP's suggestions are bad, I disagree with them, and it has nothing to do with whether or not I like werewolves (by the way, I dont play a werewolf, never played a werewolf and the enjoyment I find in the mechanic is only that inconvenience and the RP caused by needing to cure it).

The screeny you uploaded goes to show that the number of victims to this flawed and horrible system over the years is lower than you think. I say it again and going to stop responding to this thread after - Just REPORT rule breaks (including that kind of exploitation you say I'm defending, which I'm not) and the server will be fine.
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Re: Remove -polymorph from lycanthropes.

Post by Archnon » Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:50 pm

I understand that the suggestion forum is now closed but I have an idea (read suggestion).

What if there was a vfx to signal control or not and the length between checks was lengthened to one turn instead of one round....

You could go back to the old glowing red eyes vfx... It would be more immersive and provide for more interesting storytelling ("I saw him transform but his eyes were docile and scared so I spared him" vs "the beast was clearly filled with bloodlust and you could see it in his eyes") and be a signal that you could report to the DM's and know which is which if it was being abused. It would also allow lycanthropes who are not purely evil a signal that they are in control so they don't get killed outright. The switch to turns vs rounds would allow 1.) RP to occur post transformation before the next check 2.) Not result in psychedelic blinking red eyes when interacting with a wolf.

Just an idea!

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Re: Remove -polymorph from lycanthropes.

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:04 pm

I played the original werewolf, and while fun, it really should be a scarcity thing. Or gated behind Gifts like other races - because lycanthropes *are* a different race.
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Re: Remove -polymorph from lycanthropes.

Post by Ork » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:44 am

Lycanthropes deserve better than the current system.

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Re: Remove -polymorph from lycanthropes.

Post by Nobs » Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:48 am

It is rather buggy.

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Re: Remove -polymorph from lycanthropes.

Post by RedGiant » Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:51 am

I like the werewolf system.
A) I like that characters can become infected werewolves.
B) I like that werewolf characters are subject to uncontrollable rage.
C) I like that they are subject to the lunar cycle.
D) I like that they can /choose/ to shapeshift, which, given the B, is an undeniably evil act in most cases.
E) I like that they are subject to all the RP consequences if they choose to persist in their affliction, which many, many PCs know how to cure.

Anything beyond this should be a reward. If you die to one, maybe roll with it? Turn your character into a grade "A" monster hunter? Toss a coin to your Witcher, eh?

I personally don't buy all the hype that if someone gets killed by a raging werewolf, they will storm off an leave the serve. If they did, they weren't going to stay anyway. People that sensitive to PvP incidences will likely not last long on Arelith. A raging werewolf is no more a rules break than a PC hit with confusion. The "RRRAAAGH" they force spam is really dead give away. We have the technology and maturity to deal with this in game.
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Re: Remove -polymorph from lycanthropes.

Post by Jagel » Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:33 am

I also like that it’s nigh impssible to build a mechanically sound werewolf. If you stock up on feats that enhance your ww-shape you will be gimping your non-hybrid default character.

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