Grandfathering

[Dreams]

Grandfathering is when you update to remove something, but let everyone else who’s got the thing keep it. It isn’t a problem when there is a decent economy of character rolling, but some people don’t roll, other things get passed around.

I think it is damaging to the server to keep grandfathering immensely powerful items and abilities when the opportunity of getting them is removed.

The Beast Belt is an excellent example of this. It was insanely good, practically a must-have item on most melee characters. Those characters who already have it will continue to find a massive advantage in gearing and will always be comparatively better than newer characters.

[AstralUniverse]

There are still artefects out there. Nerfed, yes, but still stronger than your normal addy gear + rune or some 5% ring. I think it adds some legacy to the world that is ever evolving, both thematically and mechanically. It adds a bit of a wild card. The team could decide to nerf all belts to have 1 less str or something along that line if so they choose. It has been done before to Artefects.

[Ork]

Grandfathering

I don't agree. Think of a current character that has the old three-stat gift. Think of an character of an ECL race that also had a three-stat gift. These characters are few and far between now. This is the same progression that will happen to beast-belt owners.

[Twily]

I do not know if I would still play on Arelith today if they did not do grandfathering in cases like these.

Some of my favorite paths have been removed(Weave Master, Kensai, Favored Soul), and I still have a character for each of these today. They still have the same charm they always had for me and I can say for a fact I would be incredibly disappointed were these not grandfathered when they were removed.

People will eventually leave these characters, shelve them for so long that they may as well have rolled them, or even leave the server.
If they're using the advantage to detract from other's fun, they'll inevitably get mark of despair or eventually banned.


There's a balance to be had with fairness.
It wouldn't be fair for people to have risked their character's entire existence under a predetermined deal they agreed to, and then have the payout for succeeding taken away from them after the fact.
The belt isn't quite in the old artifact teir, so it's continued existence isn't that big of a deal.
2 stat, 2 skillx4 is already a base enchanted piece. The belt gets you 3 str, 5disc, 5intimidate. That's not too far off from a base enchanted piece with a rune.
And if it does actually get that bad, they can just give it a tiny nerf.

[Anomandaris]

I do not know if I would still play on Arelith today if they did not do grandfathering in cases like these.

Some of my favorite paths have been removed(Weave Master, Kensai, Favored Soul), and I still have a character for each of these today. They still have the same charm they always had for me and I can say for a fact I would be incredibly disappointed were these not grandfathered when they were removed.

People will eventually leave these characters, shelve them for so long that they may as well have rolled them, or even leave the server.
If they're using the advantage to detract from other's fun, they'll inevitably get mark of despair or eventually banned.


There's a balance to be had with fairness.
It wouldn't be fair for people to have risked their character's entire existence under a predetermined deal they agreed to, and then have the payout for succeeding taken away from them after the fact.
The belt isn't quite in the old artifact teir, so it's continued existence isn't that big of a deal.
2 stat, 2 skillx4 is already a base enchanted piece. The belt gets you 3 str, 5disc, 5intimidate. That's not too far off from a base enchanted piece with a rune.
And if it does actually get that bad, they can just give it a tiny nerf.

And realistically it's not that hard to max str anyway. And frankly, there are a lot of builds out there (casters, dex based chars) that don't even use it, like me! The belt is a strong item and a cool bit of RP. I don't think it's unreasonably powerful. It'd be better for me given I don't use it if they all disappeared (if I were thinking selfishly) but it's not going to make the difference and people should have their fun little cookies

I do wonder why the belt got taken though, when a powerful Assassin belt was just implemented and the Radiant Heart ring is arguably stronger.

I'm a little sad about the change in general, not just the belt. Perma death was an awesome element of fear to the battle.

[Nitro]

Grandfathering

I don't agree. Think of a current character that has the old three-stat gift. Think of an character of an ECL race that also had a three-stat gift. These characters are few and far between now. This is the same progression that will happen to beast-belt owners.

I have all of these sitting on at least one character in my vault. As well as grandfathered kensai, weave masters and gift of spell resistance characters. Why should I roll them now that they can't ever be obtained again? And I much doubt I'm the only one doing this, the numbers will reduce yes, but they'll never disappear entirely.

Case in point: We still have pre-amia split artifacts existing on the server and getting handed down.

[Quidix]

I strongly dislike grandfathering - for every argument that it 'upsets someone', a new player can equally get turned off, and it demotivates current players that don't have it yet. I can accept it in circumstances where something is absolutely core to the RP, such as a whole class like weave masters - but for something mechanical like this, I really don't see any reason to grandfather.

At the very least, I would have liked to see the free +1 saves feat removed. It is not essential for any build, and is now just a legacy perk. If the argument is that 'oh but the perks are not that big' - well, then why is being changed in the first place? (hint: likely because it has been deemed they are indeed significant)

How will the RH items be adjusted based on this experience, will they be grandfathered too despite it was pointed out from the start that it was not balanced?

This sets a precedent that whenever something too-strong is released, make sure you get it straight away so it gets grandfathered.

[Kenji]

I'd have to agree with what Quidix had said regarding grandfathering.

To add on top of that, grandfathering also makes balancing trickier, if not more difficult by having to take into account of the grandfathered characters.

People do keep their special, grandfathered characters, just because they can no longer be obtained. And with the recent relevels, there are often talks of rebuilding those grandfathered characters when the intention of removing paths or changing mechanics is not so the old ones can persist and muck things up for the new.

In fact, with the -relevel command introduced, I'd go so far as to simply change any grandfathered paths or items or characters in general. Examples are as followed:
Kensais will simply have their restrictions and bonus APR and stuffs removed
Weave Masters will just become regular sorcerers
Favoured Souls will just become regular bards
etc.

Then offer them relevel and rebuild. See if one of these things will happen:
1. There are tons of grandfathered characters, so the staff team is swarmed. This would show that grandfathering in and of itself is a mistake, to begin with if these old grandfathered characters persisted and they are not being rolled or shelved.
2. There are hardly any requests for rebuilds or relevels at all. Meaning that grandfathering isn't too much of a problem since people are, in fact, rolling and shelving their old grandfathered character for good.

Either way, I see the above as a method of trouble-shooting for a compromise or a solution for topics such as grandfathering.

Edit: This would also clear up potential future development of previously mentioned paths, as haks are a thing now. Favored Soul can be a PRC much like in NWN2.

[SugarFiend]

I think the best way to ensure that these and other grandfathered items are not passed down is to flag them so that they cannot be bartered. We have repair kits now which means that you don't need to remove an item to have it repaired so the loss of charges due to the inability to drop/barter is not a concern anymore.

[Liareth]

I agree strongly with the voices opposing grandfathering in this thread. In the past, my policy was to avoid grandfathering completely. Not only does it make new characters feel like they can't compete (I still get annoyed knowing that a wild dwarf kensai barb/fighter/wm exists, and I can never match them!), it also adds significant complexity to the code, which makes future changes harder to make. IMO, changes should just be applied, and if they are too extreme, full rebuilds offered.

[Beard Master Flex]

I think rare, incredibly powerful items or characters existing gives the world some variety and excitement. I'd rather see them grandfathered with the hope I'll interact with them one day then just have everyone be the same.

[Griefmaker]

I think rare, incredibly powerful items or characters existing gives the world some variety and excitement. I'd rather see them grandfathered with the hope I'll interact with them one day then just have everyone be the same.

I agree with this view. Plus I think that even with all the "incredibly powerful" old items, they may offer an advantage, but rarely is it so excessively powerful that it cannot be replicated by a single spell or something like that. Artifacts that are out there are a fun thing to be able to fantasize about! And they are so rare that for all practical purposes, they do not really affect much.

[Anomandaris]

I think rare, incredibly powerful items or characters existing gives the world some variety and excitement. I'd rather see them grandfathered with the hope I'll interact with them one day then just have everyone be the same.

I agree with this view. Plus I think that even with all the "incredibly powerful" old items, they may offer an advantage, but rarely is it so excessively powerful that it cannot be replicated by a single spell or something like that. Artifacts that are out there are a fun thing to be able to fantasize about! And they are so rare that for all practical purposes, they do not really affect much.

Same. This is the first time I've benefited from grandfathering (the belt & perks) and I don't use the belt. And it's only 1 of my 4 chars that has em actually so I have nothing to gain/loss here. I love bumping into the odd super unique class or whatever floating about. It adds an air of mystery and awe, that a server I've been playing for so long can still surprise me with something new and dangerous.

Frankly, the only argument that resonated with me about not grandfathering is the coding one and "technical debt." I'm not sure how big of a problem this is, but if it's wasting lots of dev time that is a consideration.

All in all our play experience shouldn't realistically be negatively affected by knowing some ppl out there have something we can't have that is better... that's just the reality of life. It's like saying, I'm a millionare with a beautiful sailboat, but I can't enjoy it knowing some billionaire out there has a mega yacht that make this looks like a rubber ducky.

Lastly, the idea that a new player "fresh off the street" logs in, sets up a new char and decides to quit because they can't make a Weavemaster or something is unrealistic. A lot of people take AGES to reach lvl 30 on their first, go through multiple character iterations and son on. I didn't meet a weavemaster til over a year in and I saw that PC 1-2 times (even on the playerlist). It's more likely that they look around at all the unique races like Mino, Firb etc and say wow.. why can't I make one of those? Sorry you gotta grind out multiple lvl 30 chars, then roll em, to even have a chance at that. I don't think this is a problem either, but if you're gonna make the other argument it's a factor.

In my experience the players that have this really old stuff are super committed to this place and quality RPers. There are probably exceptions, but I don't see someone being a total tyrant with this stuff, but rather keeping a low profile. It's fine, let them enjoy the things they worked for and focus on all the cool stuff we CAN have

[Quidix]

My response to the arguments brought up:

"But some people might quit"

• Just a few months ago there was an upheaval from the UMD changes. Lots of people got upset, some quit. The party line then was that it was ultimately necessary for the long-run good of the server, even if that meant some people left. Why is this different? Surely not that many people are affected, and even if they are, it's not build-altering.
• I don't understand how for some changes it's seen as critical that everyone are affected the same way (almost all class / feat / skills / race changes), but as soon as it becomes about items, grandfathering is fine?
• If these people are so committed, surely putting them back on the same level as others will not actually make them quit? (they're not being discriminated against, they're just not being given special treatment anymore)
• Even if past mistakes were made (ie allowing some grandfathering), that does not mean we need to continue with such a bad policy.
• The fact that the real world is unfair does not mean that we have to choose to make this fictional world unfair too.

"But I like meeting unique things in the world"

• If one does like unique things (which I understand), then why does it have to be implemented as grandfathering, which has deep mechanical implications?
• I struggle to see how roleplaying a legacy version of a belt that still exists in a new form, and a generic feat giving +1 universal, is critical to someone generating unique and interesting RP
• Why not let people stand out for their stories instead?
• When I first found out about the grandfathering on artifacts and some classes I was upset, and did consider if this was the right environment for a semi-new player. So even if there may be some that like the idea of meeting 'uniques', there certainly are two sides to that story.

[Anomandaris]

A few points to add:

• Just a few months ago there was an upheaval from the UMD changes. Lots of people got upset, some quit. The party line then was that it was ultimately necessary for the long-run good of the server, even if that meant some people left. Why is this different? Surely not that many people are affected, and even if they are, it's not build-altering.
• I don't understand how for some changes it's seen as critical that everyone are affected the same way (almost all class / feat / skills / race changes), but as soon as it becomes about items, grandfathering is fine?
• The fact that the real world is unfair does not mean that we have to choose to make this fictional world unfair too.
• If these people are so committed, surely putting them back on the same level as others will not actually make them quit? (ie they're not being discriminating against them, they're just not being given special treatment any more)
• When I first found out about the grandfathering on artifacts and some classes I was upset, and did consider if this was the right environment for a semi-new player. And even if past mistakes were made (ie allowing some grandfathering), that does not mean we need to continue with such a bad policy.

That's fair, but it cuts both ways. For every player that may feel upset about it, there are people like me that find it adds flavor to the world and a sense of wonder. *shrug* can't make everyone happy... I wouldn't kick and scream if they removed the stuff, nor would I campaign to have it removed. It certainly does not impact my my gameplay or experience more than .005% of gametime.

Also, it's not that we should endeavor to make this world unfair because the real world is unfair. It's that things are unfair inherently, because there's no perfect system. You can do your best but without a VERY heavy hand, and limiting soooo much behavior it takes the fun out of it, true fairness is not a thing.

You remove these things.. like Belt.. from someone who risked character death to earn it "that's unfair." You leave it and those can't have it that come after "that's unfair." So what do we do? Someone will always be upset

[Quidix]

...

(Seems you managed to quote me while I had my message in preview, not sure how that happened - anyhow, I re-wrote it to more clearly address your points)

[Twily]

There definitely are good points made both ways here.

Ultimately, the belt and fight rewards being grandfathered I do feel could go either way.
Had they retroactively removed the bonuses I wouldn't be too upset.

It's things like Favored Soul where I would be upset though, because the way some of the old paths were built and played were just so drastically different from the base classes.
Even going as far as where the character is from, what god they follow, what sort of magic they know, events of their past, etc. Removing it without grandfathering existing ones would completely destroy the entire roleplay and mechanical basis of the majority of these characters, and even a remake can't fix the inconsistencies in their story that would show up.
It'd be like removing warlock and turning all existing warlocks into bards. It just doesn't work.

The same can't really be said for the belt and the cage fights though, so were it not grandfathered I wouldn't really be batting an eye.

When I think grandfathering should occur is when the characteristic that is being removed is one that likely to be a core part of that characters story, and where there's no alternative or replacement in it's place.

[Tarkus the dog]

Eh. I killed the Beast yesterday ( 20 hours after the update ) and to my surprise was rewarded with a +1 dex +3 discipline runic belt. Not what I was expecting but also it's not the end of the world.

At the same time my 3 gift orog who has the old belt is not that different. His build is outdated and if I was to make the same character again his multi-classing would be different.

It's a win-some lose-some situation ( unless you're a new player, in that case... welp!), and the best way to avoid it? It's to plan things better. Whenever the devs decide to add something strong ( like the Beast Belt was for so many years now), they should but ask themselves if it's something that they'll need to get rid of in the distant future. If the answer to that question is 'probably', it's best not to even add it.

I'm excited to see if any unique items will eventually be an obtainable option by rogues, fighters, dwarven defenders, rangers, wizards, sorcerers, blackguards, barbarians, druids, monks, palemasters, shifters, weaponmasters, shadowdancers, arcane archers and red dragon disciplines. These are also classes that people play. I don't see why assassins, paladins, divine champions, knights and clerics should have the option to get their unique item and not the classes I mentioned above. In other words, unless something is added for other classes as well, the assassin belt and the Radiant Heart ring are a mistake.

[Dreams]

Artefacts were too powerful, so they were altered with a script that covered Arelith. Other items that are discontinued/removed could also benefit from such a script. People have complained about the fairness of not letting someone keep an old item, but I would make the point that by altering it into the range that a new player has access to, you're hitting the right balance of fairness. It's a better option than simply removing it.

My opinion is that:
- Discontinued classes should be entirely removed, not grandfathered. Give players a fair period of time (maybe 6 RL months) before their character will need to be rolled. Weave Masters, Favoured Souls, Kensai, and so on. This allows them enough time to tie up loose ends and finish off their character stories. They can roll, reap whatever reward, and move on to the next thing. Maybe a +1% toward Major/Greater as a small incentive would be appreciated by players in this.

- Items that are removed for the purpose of balance should be entirely removed (or altered by script), not grandfathered. Using the Beast Belt as an example, the difference of +3STR, +5Taunt/Intimidate, +1Uni Saves, Epic Rep bonuses (within Arelith systems) is a huge advantage over something more available to others such as +1STR, +1CON, +1Uni, +2Disc, +2Spellcraft, +2Spot. Future generations don't have access to the Beast Belt, but why not change the previous ones so that everyone gets the same? Then everyone faces the same gearing options and decisions. People who already have the Beast Belt are in a far better position to regear than those who don't.

It doesn't seem like any real thought is given to balance anymore, but a pretty decent starting point for thinking about it might be fairness = equal opportunity.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

I like grandfathering purely for sake of not killing off my very slow leveling characters. I had a kensai who went through multiple changes till finally legacy and he was my main for a couple years with off and on play. He is my first and and only epic to this date. Dont worry, his 3 gift kensai prowess won't dominate you; he only has 10 int. Obviously he is not optimal. (Most ancient grandfather characters are suboptimal as arelith continues to powercreep).

If you just killed off my active character for being a kensai, that would not have been cool. Now players will be afraid to try things because their character may suddenly one day become illegal.

I doubt the majority of grand fathered belt holders are going to hold on to their little bit more optimal belt (compared to what enchanters can already do these days with dweomer crafting and godsaves) are going to hold on to their character forever just because they have the belt. They need to invest in the stort to ignore the reward incentive of rolling. And what if they did? How is it fair they lose the reward in an encounter that could have permadeleted with no reward?

Most of rp should not revolve around lvl 30 pvp, and it most definitely should not revolve around one lvl 30 having a small advantage over another lvl 30. If this really discourages a new player, then maybe arelith needs to reflect why the player thinks having that slight edge in lvl 30 pvp matters so much. Most of us grandfathered characters also had to level with no writs and, or a bigger death penalty. Its not fair for anyone no matter how you slice it. But its least fair to randomly disrupt the continuity of a character in the name of anti grandfathering. I also think legacy characters are cool relics, even if i dont have any optimal ones.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Artefacts were too powerful, so they were altered with a script that covered Arelith. Other items that are discontinued/removed could also benefit from such a script. People have complained about the fairness of not letting someone keep an old item, but I would make the point that by altering it into the range that a new player has access to, you're hitting the right balance of fairness. It's a better option than simply removing it.

My opinion is that:
- Discontinued classes should be entirely removed, not grandfathered. Give players a fair period of time (maybe 6 RL months) before their character will need to be rolled. Weave Masters, Favoured Souls, Kensai, and so on. This allows them enough time to tie up loose ends and finish off their character stories. They can roll, reap whatever reward, and move on to the next thing. Maybe a +1% toward Major/Greater as a small incentive would be appreciated by players in this.

- Items that are removed for the purpose of balance should be entirely removed (or altered by script), not grandfathered. Using the Beast Belt as an example, the difference of +3STR, +5Taunt/Intimidate, +1Uni Saves, Epic Rep bonuses (within Arelith systems) is a huge advantage over something more available to others such as +1STR, +1CON, +1Uni, +2Disc, +2Spellcraft, +2Spot. Future generations don't have access to the Beast Belt, but why not change the previous ones so that everyone gets the same? Then everyone faces the same gearing options and decisions. People who already have the Beast Belt are in a far better position to regear than those who don't.

It doesn't seem like any real thought is given to balance anymore, but a pretty decent starting point for thinking about it might be fairness = equal opportunity.

I had a kensai where i was of and on with 6 month periods in between. I just logged in one day being a legacy character with no movement speed and being able to drink potions and ibwas only half way done my development. He is on the shelf now after me taking another break from arelith before returning, but i fully intend to one day finish the character. Im not just going to delete all my characters every time real life gets im the way.

[AstralUniverse]

I agree strongly with the voices opposing grandfathering in this thread. In the past, my policy was to avoid grandfathering completely. Not only does it make new characters feel like they can't compete (I still get annoyed knowing that a wild dwarf kensai barb/fighter/wm exists, and I can never match them!), it also adds significant complexity to the code, which makes future changes harder to make. IMO, changes should just be applied, and if they are too extreme, full rebuilds offered.

Lets remember just what happened last time the playerbase sent god knows how many requests for full rebuilds. Most of us didnt get them and rolled btw. Full rebuilds are pain to do, as I'm sure you'd know. About 30-40 min for every character if you're very good at it. There's no one on the team currently with the time and knowledge to do those, I was told, and when the requests pile up to over a hundred after a massive update its just not a realistic solution as reality shows.

What's so awful about knowing there's that powerful character out there you cannot compete with? It's not like there will be more of those. Most of them also become obsolete when the meta changes. Think about all those powerful characters who have 3 gifts and 32 sr and maybe other sub-race bonuses... oh wait, they cant use scrolls anymore and they cant rebuild because they are grandfathered 'legacy content'. It's really not a huge deal.

[Quidix]

Perhaps let's park the discussion on whether full rebuilds should be offered to all old legacy classes (which I'd like, but I recognise is a huge undertaking).

What's the problem with a script for the Beast belt and associated feats? My main point is that at the very least, let's make sure we tighten the policy into better going forward (ie no new grandfathering).

[Liareth]

I agree strongly with the voices opposing grandfathering in this thread. In the past, my policy was to avoid grandfathering completely. Not only does it make new characters feel like they can't compete (I still get annoyed knowing that a wild dwarf kensai barb/fighter/wm exists, and I can never match them!), it also adds significant complexity to the code, which makes future changes harder to make. IMO, changes should just be applied, and if they are too extreme, full rebuilds offered.

Lets remember just what happened last time the playerbase sent god knows how many requests for full rebuilds. Most of us didnt get them and rolled btw. Full rebuilds are pain to do, as I'm sure you'd know. About 30-40 min for every character if you're very good at it. There's no one on the team currently with the time and knowledge to do those, I was told, and when the requests pile up to over a hundred after a massive update its just not a realistic solution as reality shows.

It seems like it would be very simple to automate full rebuilds if the development team wanted to go in that direction. No need for any manual intervention.

[AstralUniverse]

It seems like it would be very simple to automate full rebuilds if the development team wanted to go in that direction. No need for any manual intervention.

You've done things with this server that were considered impossible in the past. Think you could pull of something like that, that also overrides the anti-muling script? I think I'd be speaking for most of the playerbase if I said it would draw many smiles around here.