1h Concussion Needs Some Love

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garrbear758
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1h Concussion Needs Some Love

Post by garrbear758 » Tue Jan 28, 2020 5:53 am

Currently, every weapon group has either a niche it fills, or a few very solid weapon choices, except for 1h concussion.

Polearms give you variety: You have options for 1h or 2h, a strength monk weapons, and a finessable monk double weapon.

2h Edged gives you some variety: 2h Edged has 2 exotic 1h/2handable weapons, multiple viable 2h weapons, and multiple double weapons. In addition, when the falchion is added it will objectively be the best 2hand option in the game based on the critical threat.

1h Edged gives you quality: The dwarven rune axe, scimitar, and rapier are the 3 best weapons in the game.

1h concussion gives you two average weapons and a lot of terrible ones. The warhammer is a decent weapon, and the svirf rune hammer specifically is a good weapon, but every other option in 1h concussion is terrible due to the 20/x2 crit range and/or low damage. Out of the 7 weapons (tied with polearms for the smallest group), only 2 are remotely viable, and one of them is only viable for one race outside of an absurdly high UMD score.

Viable polearms: 7/7
Viable 2h Edged: 7/9
Viable 1h Edged: 13/15
Viable 1h concussion: 2/7 :(

Here is every 1h concussion weapon and a better option in the same category

Simple Weapons
-Club: For monks, it is beaten by the kama or quarterstaff. For non monks, it is beaten by the spear.
-Morningstar: Spear

Martial Weapons
-Light mace: Hand axe, rapier, etc.
-Light flail: Hand axe, longsword, scimitar, battleaxe, etc.
-Light hammer: (except the svirf hammer): Hand axe
-Warhammer: The only viable choice in 1h concussion, although it's still just a worse dwarven waraxe that saves you a feat.

Exotic
-Whip: Everything is a better option outside of a few drow only loot weapons.
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AstralUniverse
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Re: 1h Concussion Needs Some Love

Post by AstralUniverse » Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:41 pm

Its just that Polarm has weapon options both for 1h and 2h, and 1h Edge has scimitars and bastardswords so everything else is a bit inferior to those groups. Warhammer is still a great weapon but Spear is almost the same only that it's a part of polarm so its objectively better to take polarm.
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Re: 1h Concussion Needs Some Love

Post by Wuthering » Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:13 pm

There are some niche cases where these weapons are desirable. Like, clubs, maces and morningstars are all simple and rogue proficiency and club is both plus monk weapon so there are some characters who can really excel using them.

Ideally there would be at least one special top-tier choice for every weapon type. That might encourage more diversity. Maces already have a pretty good assassin-only option with reasonable UMD, though to be honest I don't know anyone who actually uses it or who'd pick it over the similarly specced dagger.

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garrbear758
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Re: 1h Concussion Needs Some Love

Post by garrbear758 » Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:32 pm

Clubs maces and morningstars are rogue proficiency, but so are quarterstaves, rapiers, and daggers, which are actually good weapons. They're not desirable in any niche case.
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Wuthering
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Re: 1h Concussion Needs Some Love

Post by Wuthering » Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:32 am

No? The club may be the best option for strength-based, monk dipping healer clerics (QS is monk weapon too but requires dual wielding one way or another). It's also good for small size monks monk-dippers since they can use it 2H.. str-based rogue/monk/fighter wild dwarf is particularly strong. The Black Scepter is a good weapon for a 27/3 battle cleric/bard if they can swing 30 UMD (much easier than 55 for Elder Dream) and don't want to spend a feat on martial proficiency.

I didn't say you don't have a point-- they could potentially use some oomph and I think more speciality weapons like the scepter or Svirf hammer could be one way to get there. Or something like letting concussive weapons ignore crit immunity, so while your crits are low you can get them in against undead and constructs and the like.

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Re: 1h Concussion Needs Some Love

Post by CptJonas » Thu Feb 20, 2020 2:12 am

Well..you can do some easy fixes...
Like...
Give us maybe 4x crit mod weapon?
Or maybe do same stuff as was done with heavy flail...give them more flat damage....That would be neat

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Re: 1h Concussion Needs Some Love

Post by godhand- » Thu Feb 20, 2020 2:29 am

not quite 1h concussion.... but what ever happened to the maul? I've been hanging out for that suckers implementation for ages.
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Re: 1h Concussion Needs Some Love

Post by Kuma » Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:14 am

godhand- wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 2:29 am
not quite 1h concussion.... but what ever happened to the maul? I've been hanging out for that suckers implementation for ages.
maul, heavy mace, falchion... i need them

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Re: 1h Concussion Needs Some Love

Post by Hinty » Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:13 am

I see a relatively easy solution to this issue.

Change the two 1 handed weapon groups to 1 Handed Impact, and 1 Handed Swords. Take all the axes and put them in with the blunt weapons. Now you have two lists with more similar sizes, both have decent weapons, both have a good split of damage types (Blunt and Slashing - Slashing and Piercing) AND it makes more sense from a realism stand point. An axe is wielded FAR more like the blunt weapons. Wielding a sword requires a whole different set of techniques.


Also, while we are on the subject, shouldn't the Dwarven Waraxe count as Two Handed as well as One handed the same as the Bastard Sword and Katana?

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Baseili
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Re: 1h Concussion Needs Some Love

Post by Baseili » Thu Feb 20, 2020 2:29 pm

I doubt there'll be any way of making 1h concussion on par with the other weapons, crit rules supreme after all. Increasing the hit die on them would at least bring most of them out of the "for style reasons" category, especially things like the club, light flail, mace and morningstar.

A couple of ideas to make them more interesting:

Increase overall damage dice. (The club and the mace share the same 1d6, despite the club being one size bigger)

Lower bludgeoning resists/immunity across the board. (Bludgeoning should really be on shields)

Increasing damage to anything with Crit Immunity. (Who needs crit when you can shatter bone instead?)

Chance on hit to bruise. (Minor AB and spell failure penalty)

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Zavandar
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Re: 1h Concussion Needs Some Love

Post by Zavandar » Fri Feb 21, 2020 11:51 pm

just increase their multipliers
Intelligence is too important

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Re: 1h Concussion Needs Some Love

Post by cowboy » Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:58 am

Warhammer should be -twohandable by everyone.

I have no idea why the whip is in it. But maybe whips should be given an inherent bonus to disarm.

I think maces should be 19-20 (or maybe even scimitar/rapier range, 18-20 - there isn't a bludgeoning scimitar).

Clubs have monk synergy so I wouldn't touch them at all beyond maybe making them finessable.

If it doesn't, dire mace should count as both 1 handed concussion and twohanded.

If it doesn't, heavy flail should count as both 1 handed concussion and twohanded. I also think they should be given reasonable damage dice 3d6 is INSANE, and instead they should be a bludgeoning greatsword and become 19-20 crit range.

Light flail could then be given the longsword treatment and be given 19-20 crit range as well. Considering they're 'small' now could also make them finessable.

Light hammers are fine. They are x3, small, and finessable.

Morningstar could be made -twohandable. They're a simple weapon and do TWO dmg types. Adding some extra dmg gives them appeal without making them too good.

I think mage staves could be cool for adding to 1 handed concussion as a mace equivalent (but dragon shape / other shapes might need their weapon changed to something that has no weapon focuses if thats the case.)
Last edited by cowboy on Sat Feb 22, 2020 6:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Hinty
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Re: 1h Concussion Needs Some Love

Post by Hinty » Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:40 am

Light flail already works with finesse. The size change made that automatic.

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Re: 1h Concussion Needs Some Love

Post by Mythic » Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:22 am

My main suggestion is having Weapon Groups with a set "goal" in Mind, Blunt weapons could be more base damage, In exchange for crit range and crit multiplier. The issue is Crits are REALLY good, So the other option is giving them a higher crit Multi, or on-hit effects...

Whip : 2d3 19-20 Crit range, That solves it's major issue of having 0 damage making it slightly more consistant damage-wise, And makes it not a 20/x2 as Whips are easy to do nasty damage with.

Club : 2d4, and every? Craftable club has Bonus Piercing damage making it a Dual-Type?

Morningstar : I'm suprised this is a simple weapon, But making it a 2d3 as it's already a dual type and 19-20

Mace : Make it x3 and 2d3. Crushing is a consistant sort of damage.
Light Flail : 2d3, But Give light flails Slashing damage typing
Light Hammer : This is a weird one, But I'd make it x4 but keep it's low damage of 1d4
Warhammer : It's good, But i'd make it's damage more consistant with 2d4.


Alternatively. To make them follow regular weapon-trends
Club : 1d8 20x2
Morningstar : 1d6 19-20 x2
Mace : 2d3 x3
Light flail : 2d3 + slashing type, 19-20 x2
Light Hammer : 1d4 x4
Warhammer : 2d4 x3

Dire Mace (Y'all forgot Dire mace) : Which is in a good place with it's x3 crits, shame about it's looks

Whip : 18-20 2d2 x2

Maul (When added in) EITHER 2d6 x3, OR 2d6 19-20 x2

Balancing weapons is a difficult matter, But really if there's weapons which are always going to be used (Rapier, Scim, Kukri) Due to crit range or Multi, Having one of each weapon in a Pool would see a lot of people gravitate to them.

So really it's make them have more base-damage across the board than other weapons in the same typing, But make them 20/x2

Or pick a weapon, Give it the same stats as some other weapons and call it a day, making it more a players look-choice.

And having more custom-high end weaponry would be nice for every weapon-type (But probably for a different Thread)
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Re: 1h Concussion Needs Some Love

Post by Quidix » Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:18 am

All in for some boosts here. That said, one should be very wary of:

1) Clubs given that they get monk UBAB
2) Light hammers as they have an extremely powerful racial weapon associated with them

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Re: 1h Concussion Needs Some Love

Post by CptJonas » Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:28 pm

Quidix wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:18 am
All in for some boosts here. That said, one should be very wary of:

1) Clubs given that they get monk UBAB
2) Light hammers as they have an extremely powerful racial weapon associated with them
2) nit so much powerfull...and...its for worst stát wise race in game...they should get something for playin it :D

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Re: 1h Concussion Needs Some Love

Post by Ork » Sat Feb 22, 2020 2:23 pm

I feel like this paradigm is balanced:

20x4 - +3 enchantment max
20x3 - +4 enchantment max
20x2 - +5 enchantment max
19-20x2 - +4 enchantment max
18-20x2 - +3 enchantment max

Warhammers need a +4 option.

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Re: 1h Concussion Needs Some Love

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:43 pm

Ork wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 2:23 pm
I feel like this paradigm is balanced:

20x4 - +3 enchantment max
20x3 - +4 enchantment max
20x2 - +5 enchantment max
19-20x2 - +4 enchantment max
18-20x2 - +3 enchantment max

Warhammers need a +4 option.
That actaully makes sense.

Weapons with less impressive crits have says of getting through defenses better
Like blunt weapons are naturally good against armor.

Be nice if i had some non orog + 4 greatsword options. Maybe mauls and Falchions could make their way if your suggestion became a golden standard.

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Re: 1h Concussion Needs Some Love

Post by CptJonas » Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:51 pm

Actualy...worst weapon in that category is light flail...

It worse then both morningstar and Warhammer are just better version s (one have x3 other one have splith damage)

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Re: 1h Concussion Needs Some Love

Post by cowboy » Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:13 pm

I'll numberize my suggestion.

Heavy Flail, dire mace should be given synergy to One Handed Concussion. They are one handed weapons for large races and would give "ONE HANDED CONCUSSION" more appeal as it is a very small category. Anyone with martial or exotic will get a gain.

Warhammer: 1d8 20 x3 [change nothing], make it -twohandable
Whip: 1d2 20 x2 [make it have some inherent bonus to disarm, kd, or both.]
Mace: changed from 1d6 20 x2 to 1d6 19-20 x2.
Club: Should not change from 1d6 and being medium. It's a monk weapon now (APR is not a meme). It could just have new items.
Heavy Flail: 3d6 20 x2 should be changed to 2d6 19-20 x2.
Light Flail: is 1d8 20 x2 and should become 1d8 19-20 x2. Could become 1d6 18-20 x2 to be a blunt scimmy/rapier. (Not finessable yet?)
Light Hammers are already good.
Morningstar is a simple weapon. It should get -twohand if anything.
Magic staves: 1d6 20 x2 to 1d6 19-20 x2. (and count for the feat, but dragon stuff ought be looked after. I want to see battle mages with staves!)
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Re: 1h Concussion Needs Some Love

Post by Ork » Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:52 pm

Yeah I agree with all that. 20x2 items should be changed entirely. There's nothing good about that crit range.

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Re: 1h Concussion Needs Some Love

Post by Zavandar » Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:36 pm

Spears exist. A simple, x3 weapon that is twohandable. Might as well buff the rest.
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Re: 1h Concussion Needs Some Love

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:04 am

Ork wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 2:23 pm
I feel like this paradigm is balanced:

20x4 - +3 enchantment max
20x3 - +4 enchantment max
20x2 - +5 enchantment max
19-20x2 - +4 enchantment max
18-20x2 - +3 enchantment max

Warhammers need a +4 option.
I really like this idea.

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Re: 1h Concussion Needs Some Love

Post by Algol » Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:23 pm

While I agree most concussion weapons need a buff I disagree with them makin equivalent of pierce/slash weapons. Because blunt damage is superior pierce/slash damage due to SR being only avaible on helmets for most builds... Especially slash damage where its DI is very common in best in slot chest slots. If just the crit threat range or multiplier is increased blunt weapons will just become the same as (most) slash/pierce weapons but slightly better.

I think an interesting change that could be made to the concussion weapons is making the crafted recipes runic and makin them easier to rune... This would make them a much more attractive option for builds that are wide spread on stats or for those that want to stack on elemental damage.

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Re: 1h Concussion Needs Some Love

Post by Archnon » Thu Feb 27, 2020 5:57 pm

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:04 am
Ork wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 2:23 pm
I feel like this paradigm is balanced:

20x4 - +3 enchantment max
20x3 - +4 enchantment max
20x2 - +5 enchantment max
19-20x2 - +4 enchantment max
18-20x2 - +3 enchantment max

Warhammers need a +4 option.
I really like this idea.
This is not crazy, though I would like to see more +5 racial favored enemy weapons out there with more lore. I love the +5 Svirf hammer, against the average player PVP or in PVE it is not good, but against drow, oh boy. Plus it comes with a sick description. and some nice lore to build on. Finally, there is a real cost to get one, which makes it somewhat special.

Would love to see other races getting a similar tool. dwarf to hit Giant, kobold to hit gnome, drow to hit elf/human, etc etc,..... something where you get a +5, a lower crit range (20-3x) and nice specific damage, but that requires races to craft it themselves, not a loot matrix item. Use racially favored weapons when you can or otherwise favor weapons that are less popular, like the light hammer. (for the record, the Svirf racially favored weapon per their divinity is a battle axe)

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