1h Concussion Needs Some Love

[Quidix]

Yeah I agree with all that. 20x2 items should be changed entirely. There's nothing good about that crit range.

I do really agree with this!

• My preference is to change the 'core weapon stats' rather than creating a host of unique weapons in each category, as that is much easier to manage
• At the same time, I think just boosting the same overall crit effect for all weapons is a bit boring, although I think that would still be a good change...
• ... and so my preference is to give 20x2 blunt weapons a reasonably boost in base damage. This then creates a niche for blunt weapons. The base damage increase should likely be in the order of magnitude of 4 damage to at least roughly compensate for the lost crit (difference between x2 and x3 on a 30 per hit damage build is 4.5, and 6 if average damage is 40)
• On reflection I don't see any issue for treating clubs differently. The fact that club can get UBAB is not really a fair argument, given that Naginata is better in every way (better crit multiplier, better base damage), and they serve a similar role (monk str-only weapons). Healer cleric club builds are not that common, and if that's the only issue, then healers specifically should get some sort of restriction rather club continuing to get a bad deal

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Is it script-able for some weapons to get bonuses for Disarm and Knockdown attacks?

[wulfburk]

On warhammers, it would be great if a simple one with just +3 enhancement was added to the loot matrix, this would allow it to be easily runned with keen with a lesser one, as it happens with those +4 enhancement light flails

As it stands now, all loot warhammers are worse than the masterly damask and require the same masterful blade rune to rune them. Hammer of lightning is ok but you're better off with masterly damask and with a permanent +4 essence. Judgement of the Morndinsamman is very niche, requiring lawful good, dwarf AND paladin, plus its worse than damask warhammers, except against orcs (IMO it would be good to open it up to be useable by Divine Champion and Favoured Soul, and open it to neutral and chaotic good too). As a dwarf you really are going non optimal if you ditch the rune waraxe for the warhammer, so there is no incentive go one handed concussion. But i'm of the opinion most weapons need better items anyway to increase variety, though one handed concussion is indeed much worse than the other groups.

[Drowboy]

Heavy mace either needs crit changes (range or multiplier), to be -twohandable, or to be made martial, frankly. That'd be a decent boost just there.

[Maladus]

Only time I've ever used blunt weapons is for slimes.

[-XXX-]

Bludgeoning used to be the most versatile damage type for PvE in terms of common spawn damage resistances, while piercing being the least favorable.

I wonder whether this still applies and whether it is / ought to be a consideration.

[Shadowy Reality]

Bludgeoning used to be the most versatile damage type for PvE in terms of common spawn damage resistances, while piercing being the least favorable.

I wonder whether this still applies and whether it is / ought to be a consideration.

I think it still is. Slimes, many undead and ice trolls all come to mind, all damaged mostly be blugeoning.

I personally like what was done with the heavy flail, it has the biggest base damage of any 2h weapon, but its criticals are bad. I think the same should be done of other bludgeoning weapons.

[Tathkar Eisgrim]

Flanged Weapons:

Perhaps it would be appropriate to take into consideration the rise of flanged weapons across all bludgeoning weapons. These are design changes to focus force through chainmail and platemail.

You could:

- Make all flanged weapons an extra +1 to hit above and beyond their metal type. This would additionally represent their forcefulness aiding knockdown attempts and helping to counter medium / heavy armour.

- Script a cumulative -1 discipline effect per hit to the underperforming bludgeoning weapons (cap at -10). Repeated blows prior to a knockdown attempt will make that attempt more likely to succeed. Countered by Lesser Restoration / Restoration.

- Change Dirty Fighting feat to 'Concussive Blows' feat and represent some of the above.

[AstralUniverse]

ice trolls

Critting hardened frost trolls for 160+ damage as an unarmed monk with some fire damage on the gloves is quite hilarious. There are still entire creature types which take extra from bludgeoning (mostly because they also have reduction to slashing in most cases) and it's still the best damage type.

[Scraps]

Bludgeoning used to be the most versatile damage type for PvE in terms of common spawn damage resistances, while piercing being the least favorable.

I wonder whether this still applies and whether it is / ought to be a consideration.

I think it still is. Slimes, many undead and ice trolls all come to mind, all damaged mostly be blugeoning.

I personally like what was done with the heavy flail, it has the biggest base damage of any 2h weapon, but its criticals are bad. I think the same should be done of other bludgeoning weapons.

This is partially true. -One slime type in particular has massive Damage Immunity vs everything physical but bludgeoning. There's a few slimes where the opposite is the case, and bludgeoning is strictly worse.

Many a handful of skeletal undead have DI and DR vs non-bludgeoning. -These dry up as you level up. Endgame undead in no way have weakness to bludgeoning that I've seen.

And then one particular variation of the ice trolls get damage vulnerability to bludgeoning.

So you'll get a bonus vs this tiny handful of PvE monsters, and get a -at best- tepid weaker weapon the rest of the time. -Wow. What luck.

[TimeAdept]

My fix for Concuss:

Add handaxe, battleaxe, dwarf waraxe to 1h concuss - it doesn't "make sense", w/e, it balances the weapons, call it "Hafted" or whatever.

let Warmace be -twohanded like waraxe, bastard sword, spear, and katana. Currently 1h edge has 3 weapons that can be -twohanded, and 1h concuss has none. It is a conspicuous difference.

1h edge carries way too much of the weapon real estate at the moment. Swapping the axes over will even that out.

[wulfburk]

Would that fix the issue though? If you add these weapons to concussion, you are just giving a second chance for people that regret going 1h concussion, for them to start using the waraxe or one of those new weapons. Honestly, if the waraxe was added to concussion what i would do as a dwarf main is to use the rune waraxe everytime that i'm in a pvp or fighting a boss, despite not liking it. I imagine if people went concussion is that they want to use one of the current concussion weapons for RP reasons, because thats all that is behind choosing the worse of the weapon groups. Thus i'd say that if its desired to improve this weapon group, it should be done by improving their current weapons. Making warmace two handable i agree.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Is there a way to script concussion weapons to ignore Damage Immunity %?

There's only so many tools in the tool box before all weapons get homogenized.

[Hunter548]

While we're talking about blunt weapons, heavy flail and light flail desperately need love (so does the war-mace) in terms of their base stats. All three are overshadowed by other blunt weapons in the same focus group, usually quite significantly. Heavy flail was actually (inexplicably) nerfed from the vanilla state where it was basically equivalent to a greatsword.

[Hinty]

I see a lot of hate for the War Mace.

The War Mace is a fantastic weapon.

One of the most popular one handed weapons is the Scimitar, because of its crit range. It has a very high chance of critting and doing an average crit of 7 damage per hit.

A War Mace does an average of 6.5 Damage per hit when it is NOT critting.


Sure, when you throw on additional damage from essences and the like the Scimitar Crit will start to outpace the War Mace, BUT you do not crit with every Scimitar attack, and sometimes you crit with the War Mace to do twice the damage a scimitar can do with its crits.

It may not be 100% optimal, but it is not remotely a bad weapon.
Light flail is similarly not so bad. Sure its not great, but it is a small weapon, so it is the only 1d8 finesse weapon out there, and the only Finesse weapon small characters can use 1 handed that does more than 1d6 damage.


Still think the solution to 1handed Concussions biggest weakness (lack of variety in damage type and small number of weapons) is best solved by putting Axes and Picks in the weapon group. Feats to use weapons should be grouped by similarity of use. If you know how to use a hammer, you know how to use a mace, because they are so similar in style.
Axes, Picks and the various Blunt weapons are all used in very similar to almost identical ways, hell many models from later centuries combined them, having two of either hammer, axe or pick heads, one on either side of the haft.
Axes are not, on the other hand, remotely like swords in their style of use.

One handed Sword feats would now include Slashing and Piercing (Hell, throw in a Tonfa and give them a blunt option) and still a reasonably long list of weapons all of which are often chosen. (rapier/scimitar for crit range or finesse, bastard sword or Katana for high damage/two hand/finesse longsword for elves, shortsword for small size folk or offhand finesse etc)
One handed Impact weapons would now have a larger selection and variety of damage types. More chance to find a magic weapon you can use. An option to change damage type if you face a foe with an immunity to bludgeoning without loosing all your feats, and, lets face it, on the hierarchy of cool, swords > axes > hammers. So having 1 and 2 in the same group just makes Blunt weapons unlikely to be taken WITHOUT the mechanical weakness right now.

[Scraps]

I see a lot of hate for the War Mace.

The War Mace is a fantastic weapon.

One of the most popular one handed weapons is the Scimitar, because of its crit range. It has a very high chance of critting and doing an average crit of 7 damage per hit.

A War Mace does an average of 6.5 Damage per hit when it is NOT critting.


Sure, when you throw on additional damage from essences and the like the Scimitar Crit will start to outpace the War Mace, BUT you do not crit with every Scimitar attack, and sometimes you crit with the War Mace to do twice the damage a scimitar can do with its crits.

So in a world without Strength Scores, Essences (Temp and Permanent), Additional Weapon Damage, and Class Bonuses this would be true.

But let's actually compare these weapons at level 1, with no keen, no improved critical, no essences, and no buffs whatsoever.

3.5 average damage for the Scimitar. 18-20x2 crits

6.5 average damage for the Warmace. 20x2 crits

If you consider literally nothing else but the raw stats of the weapons with no other modifiers at level 1, the warmace is better! There you are, you've spent your exotic proficiency for a slight increase in power. -Oh, wait actually. We're missing something.

Now, let's add 4 strength mod of damage. (Neither of these weapons are finessable. Neither can be two-handed.)

7.5 average damage for the scimitar 18-20x2 crits

10.5 average damage for the Warmace 20x2 crits.

Oh dear, we've went from the scimitar just barely beating out the Warmaces normal hits with it's crits, to getting a sizable advantage.

From 7 average crits to 15 damage on it's crits. Crits that it's three times as likely to threaten.

The warmace can crit too! -And will do about 25% more damage in the rare case it manages a crit.

This is at level 1 mind, with a very small addition of a completely unbuffed strength modifier. And hopefully you can see how absolutely critical (haha) having a crit range that isn't dumpster tier is.

Extra damage on your weapons rolls are good. -Sacrificing crit range or multiplier for it is NOT good.

At least not for an absolutely measly 3 extra damage that quickly becomes completely irrelevant when were' talking about doing upwards of 30-40 extra damage on each hit. What do you want at that point. Is 3 extra damage worth have a maximum 18-20x2 crit range?

Or do you want that 30-40 damage to instead have a 12-20x2 critrange?

It's not even a contest. And believe me when I say the same is true of 19-20x2 and 20x3 weapons compared to the garbage fire that is 20x2. You'll just be "gaining" 2 damage per attack for that awful crit range.

You can "Gain" 1 damage per attack vs a bastard sword that gets 1d10, has 19-20x2 crit range, and can be -twohanded on demand for 1.5 Strength/Divine Might Scaling.

Oh but to make things even better, you're not just getting an inferior weapon. -You're paying for it. You get to spend a feat on exotic proficiency so that you can be objectively worse than nearly every martial weapon.

[Baron Saturday]

Warmace should honestly just have a x3 multiplier. This makes it a direct upgrade to the maul, which makes sense for an exotic weapon.

[Ebonstar]

um just to note Warmace isnt included in the 1h concussion but shouldnt it be?

and its the only one that needs a second proficiency to use that being exotic which really made no sense as it has no exotic properties