Monk SR vs. Cleric SR

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Am I the only one who thinks it's a little bit wrong that a monk has to spend 5 epic feats to equal what a cleric can get by casting a 5th level spell? One is an iconic staple of the class, the other is a standard buff of a level that is not by any stretch of the imagination known for suffering a shortage of slots, AFAIK.

Perhaps consider unlocking the Improved SR feats at MNK12 rather than CLvl21+Diamond Soul to at least remove some of the sting?

[Apokriphos]

Cross classed monk is incredibly strong. Placing this feat accessible before even epics would once again make them pervasive SR powerhouses throughout the server.

I would be for 28 monk getting some SR boost, say to 35 base, to represent their devotion.

[chris a gogo]

Cleric SR is way better now don't count on your monk being immune to anything other than mind magic after 21 class levels it's the only class feature it has left.

TBH the class is currently ruined if your hoping for decent SR and if you take the SR feats you top out at 42 SR iirc.
Which means any caster is going to wipe the floor with you as mords will strip 10 off it meaning you have just wasted 5 epic feats.
So a level 30 mage with no abjuration focuses has a 10% chance of his spell failing against you, those are not good odds for the monk that has invested in being immune to magic.

Don't take SR feats they are now a trap.

[Nitro]

How is 32 SR wasted and useless AFTER you get hit by a mords? Are we playing the same game?

[Zavandar]

casted SR is on the breach list and gets removed entirely

monk SR is just reduced

two different classes w/ different perks

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

How is 32 SR wasted and useless AFTER you get hit by a mords? Are we playing the same game?

32 SR after being hit by a mords at level 30 is useless because when a level 30 caster with no feats hits you with a mords, you spent 5 epic feats to resist 1 in 20 spells, and if the caster took one spell penetration feat you now spent 5 epic feats to resist 0 in 20 spells.

The fact that monk sr is breachable on top of being capped at 32 makes the entire feature a joke except against non-casters using magic items, and I can think of much easier ways to deal with that than 30 monk levels and five epic feats.

I understand this adjustment was made to justify giving monks cookies. I think the entire ability should have been ripped out and better cookies provided, rather than making it bait to waste five epic feats.

It isn't a valid counterargument that monk sr is better than cleric sr because it doesn't go away- neither does the sr helmet, which can't be breached, and provides HIGHER sr than the breached level 30 monk.

Why are people defending items and fifth level spell slots outperforming core class niches and/or FIVE epic feats? I play casters and I still think monks got gipped.

[Izaich]

I've been meaning to write a long Feedback post about playing a pure WIS monk (Working Title: "Living With Terrible Life Choices"), and the Spell Resistance nerf was something I really wanted to touch on.

When I originally chose monk as a class, my intention was to be strong against magi. It was during a time that Sorc/BG was king. I looked at the monk's kit on paper, and concluded that their tools were well designed for resisting magic and locking down mages. That's how I viewed the monk's class identity.

The Spell Resistance was a big part of that class identity, and I feel it's change has really left the class in a worse spot as far as filling that niche.

Some ideas:
- double the value that the Improved SR Feat adds. Being the stubborn jerk I am, I ended up taking that feat as epic levels. It's impact is almost negligible in its current form.
- limit SR based on WIS mod at monk lvl 28. This makes it so that to truly unlock the spell resistance potential, a monk needs to invest in Wisdom and/or commit to pure monk to gain high SR.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

I've been meaning to write a long Feedback post about playing a pure WIS monk (Working Title: "Living With Terrible Life Choices"), and the Spell Resistance nerf was something I really wanted to touch on.

When I originally chose monk as a class, my intention was to be strong against magi. It was during a time that Sorc/BG was king. I looked at the monk's kit on paper, and concluded that their tools were well designed for resisting magic and locking down mages. That's how I viewed the monk's class identity.

The Spell Resistance was a big part of that class identity, and I feel it's change has really left the class in a worse spot as far as filling that niche.

Some ideas:
- double the value that the Improved SR Feat adds. Being the stubborn jerk I am, I ended up taking that feat as epic levels. It's impact is almost negligible in its current form.
- limit SR based on WIS mod at monk lvl 28. This makes it so that to truly unlock the spell resistance potential, a monk needs to invest in Wisdom and/or commit to pure monk to gain high SR.

Not a bad suggestion. Some would argue classes should not block out other classes and all should be on eqaul fields of counter play (often via umd) but with recent UMD/lore changes I think we should accept a bit of rock paper and siccors.

I would like to see your suggestion for higher cap with wis + monk lvl. And id like to see it non breachable again. Even with high SR a mage has options.

Also we shouldnt scale everything around 27 wizard + no penetration feats, especially since new lore/umd meta put casters in a better place. If we calculate our ab/ac balance according to max-minning standards, then so should potential of SR. After all a monk build has to give up on other options for more than 20 monk levels when their speed got capped too.

[Zavandar]

the lore change helped monks, as most non wiz/sorcs now no longer have access to mords

sr helmet's SR can also be breached down

[Might-N-Magic]

Cross classed monk is incredibly strong.

*squint eye*
You ever play any kind of cleric?

Anyways, 32 SR is trash, whether it's on a monk, cleric, or SR race. Even a greater breach puts it in "instantly useless" territory for PvP. It's not even worthwhile for PvE as any competitively leveled content to a level 30 character will ignore it all the time. That said, if monks and races are going to be limited to 32, it makes little sense for clerics to be able to shoot up to 42.

[MissEvelyn]

It's a shame that 5 epic feats so easily go to waste when Monk SR can be breached and reduced. I agree with OP on this.

Monk SR should not be reduce-able, at the very least if the character has something like 2/3 of their total levels in Monk.

[Eters]

I think the very idea of being completely immune to something without counter-play is silly. Being immune to one form of magic while still affected by another offers chances of counter-play, but being flat immune to every sort of magic doesn't. I mean we've all seen it before, how monks were played the moment they had their update and they all took the SR feats, if you didn't well I did see monks take on 20 persons and taking 0 damage due to SR as well as the amazing AC they get.

Every tool needs to have a counter-tool, and SR is no different. I'm pretty sure that being immune to scrolls is an amazing thing to have, I've experienced 32 SR on a drow before and anyone saying that it's useless are simply wrong. Watch WoF scrolls bounce off your head, etc etc.

In my opinion monk SR should remain breachable, perhaps not to the same extent as it is now. Maybe only a -2 for lesser breach, -3 for greater breach and -5 for Mord , with an extra -1 for having spell penetration, and an extra -2 for having epic spell penetration as the caster.

I understand that monk players feel wronged, but perhaps for the sake of a fair argument, you'd want to take a step back and imagine being a caster faced with a monk who's SR is unbreachable. Would you as a player, enjoy facing someone you have no chances of beating due to mechanics no matter how well you play?

[Nitro]

competitively leveled content to a level 30 character

Yes because there are so many competently built level 30 pure casters out there. 32 SR after being breached is incredibly good (and monk is the only class able to achieve this), most builds will have 27 or 26 CL and a 20-25% chance to ignore any spell without counterplay is not bad. Imagine if an MMO had a talent that said "Ignore 1/4 of spells cast at you", it'd be instantly mandatory.

You're also ignoring the large amount of non-30 casters, every scroll is almost guaranteed to bounce off you as you laugh at the poor mundane that tried to hit you with a WoF, especially since it's very likely they can't get enough lore to hit you with a mords in the first place.

You're essentially saying "It's not fair that I can't become immortal to magic without counterplay"

[AstralUniverse]

SR shouldnt be BOTH breachable and capped at 32. I strongly think the SR feats can add a bit more than +2. Remember that a monk investment into SR (30 monk lvls and 5 sr feats) will cripple the build in terms of combat numbers (not having epic dodge, umd, weapon spec, etc). That oh so powerful monk that reaches spell immunity is also one that can barely hit anything in pvp, not to mention DPS someone down to 0. There's balance to these things in that you need to invest a lot of epic feats to get that spell immunity from SR. Lets be realistic and say that a monk CANT get 42 sr from feats while also picking feats like epic weapon focus, armor skin, improved ki +5. A 22 wis/dex monk with improved ki investment cant pick many SR feats. A multi-classed monk with epic dodge and HipS, ALSO, cant pick SR feats. The only monk that actually picks many SR feats is the one that tosses away combat effectiveness for it and gives up multiclassing at all. -That- monk deserves to reach higher SR than this.

I mean we've all seen it before, how monks were played the moment they had their update and they all took the SR feats, if you didn't well I did see monks take on 20 persons and taking 0 damage due to SR as well as the amazing AC they get.

That monk doesnt exist anymore. It existed because monks didnt have anything to do with their epic feats other than picking SR because they got litterally anything from weapon focus to epic dodge for FREE. It's not the case anymore. Monks need to invest a lot in combat feats to remain competitive. I really think that 32 cap should go entirely OR the SR feats buffed to +3 or 4.

[Baseili]

Ignoring everything but the Ki feats, you could get 4 SR feats with a level 30 monk but that would sacrifice weapon focus, armour skin and any epic skill foci such as discipline, spellcraft or lore. Throwing away 2 AB, 2 AC, potential +4 to a save and +10 to a skill for a mere 8 SR seems a very steep price to pay, especially when you consider a caster only needs two pre epic and one epic feat to almost overcome it (+6). Effectively giving up almost the entire span epic levels vs a single spell school focus.

Why not disable the SR feats and allow the breachable Monk SR to progress to 42? That way casters who invest in the spell pen feats would have a niche and pure monk would retain its hardiness to magic.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

I think the very idea of being completely immune to something without counter-play is silly. Being immune to one form of magic while still affected by another offers chances of counter-play, but being flat immune to every sort of magic doesn't. I mean we've all seen it before, how monks were played the moment they had their update and they all took the SR feats, if you didn't well I did see monks take on 20 persons and taking 0 damage due to SR as well as the amazing AC they get.

Every tool needs to have a counter-tool, and SR is no different. I'm pretty sure that being immune to scrolls is an amazing thing to have, I've experienced 32 SR on a drow before and anyone saying that it's useless are simply wrong. Watch WoF scrolls bounce off your head, etc etc.

In my opinion monk SR should remain breachable, perhaps not to the same extent as it is now. Maybe only a -2 for lesser breach, -3 for greater breach and -5 for Mord , with an extra -1 for having spell penetration, and an extra -2 for having epic spell penetration as the caster.

I understand that monk players feel wronged, but perhaps for the sake of a fair argument, you'd want to take a step back and imagine being a caster faced with a monk who's SR is unbreachable. Would you as a player, enjoy facing someone you have no chances of beating due to mechanics no matter how well you play?

Many of us have imagined such years ago already and don't mind a bit of rock paper siccors. This is roleplay environment, not a everything needs to be able to fight everything 1 vs 1 pvp/duel/arena environment. I enjoy being awesome in some situations while being sucky in others.

But for sake of argument...

You can have 100 SR (not suggesting we do this) and still not be immune to mages.

SR only works on spells that are flagged for SR AND the immediate effect of said spell. I am not sure how many offensive spells ignore SR but we could add a few subpar ones to create options.

So a super crappy ab and or damage monk who is high SR crazy can be can be countered by merely having a high a.c. and spamming clouds/walls/flameshields. A mage merely needs more resources (for wands/scrolls to extend spells per day) to win and mage are also a class that is easy to make money with.

"Summon a weapon master" or or even gate spells can also deter a monk built around SR instead of combat. This idea that a mage has no options against a no breach SR opponent is a bit of a hyperbole? Will they have a much harder time? Yes and I think that is a good thing.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Ignoring everything but the Ki feats, you could get 4 SR feats with a level 30 monk but that would sacrifice weapon focus, armour skin and any epic skill foci such as discipline, spellcraft or lore. Throwing away 2 AB, 2 AC, potential +4 to a save and +10 to a skill for a mere 8 SR seems a very steep price to pay, especially when you consider a caster only needs two pre epic and one epic feat to almost overcome it (+6). Effectively giving up almost the entire span epic levels vs a single spell school focus.

Why not disable the SR feats and allow the breachable Monk SR to progress to 42? That way casters who invest in the spell pen feats would have a niche and pure monk would retain its hardiness to magic.

I like this compromise.

[Tarkus the dog]

Ah, yes. 56 SR monks. Immune to magic. Vulnerable to everything else. True horror indeed. Can't have that in my video game.

Crit immune palemasters completely shutting down entire melee classes? Pretty balanced, I'd say.

The wheel of madness spins on.

Didn't they also make it so that you can breech monk's SR, making investing in high SR even less relevant?

Also, anyone wanna talk about abjuration mages that strip people of all their buffs?

[Shadowy Reality]

I do not think uncapping monk SR is going to break anything.

A monk 30 with feats is immune to most spells it may have a semi-decent AC, but it is not going to do any damage worth mentioning.
A monk20/wm7 build is going to have 42 SR at most, if they waste all of their epic feats. This options is terrible. Or 30 SR otherwise, which is the same they have right now.

It is also worth noting that there are many useful spells the flat out ignore SR, in fact, all of mage's persistent AOE spells ignore SR.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

My two highest levels characters are a pure-class true flame and an evocation specialist wizard. High SR monks are literally more of a problem for my characters than anyone else in this thread arguing about how rare pure casters are. I'm not afraid (concerned by, but not terrified) of 42 SR, breachable or not, and with all due respect, everyone else claiming 42 SR is the end of a mage's world seems to me as if they aren't aware of all their options.

My bad about the helmet- forgot breaches work on it(ems).

22 Sr after a mords is still trash. 32 after disjoin and five epic feats is also garbage.

If I were to argue that we should make it so that rogues who take self concealment lose 1/3rd of their concealment bonus every time they get hit with a light spell? Self concealment gives you potential immunity to all attack rolls, so that works based on the theory that 5 epic feats should be nullified by a spell to keep people from being immortal, right?

No, it doesn't, because if you spend five epic feats on ANYTHING to have it rendered worthless (in equal level play) by anything other than the other side also spending epic feats, you were screwed, and we shouldn't want that for any players of any class.

Edit: Made this post from bed after being woken up by neighbors- modified for cranky tone.

Edit Again: I like Izaich's suggestion, but wonder if instead we might allow Diamond Soul to scale naturally all the way back up to 42, leave it breachable, and have Improved SR nullify two points of breaching per taking (rather than further increasing the SR total.) So a 27 monk with Improved SR III would have 39 SR, and would be breached by 4 (10-6) by a mord's and still have 35 SR. This means a 30 monk with ISR5 would still have 42 unbreachable SR... but I think arguing they don't deserve it at that point is disingenuous.

[Shiki]

It isn't worthless. You're saying 32 Spell Resistance after being breached with Mordenkainen's Disjunction is worthless.

Any other character short of things with racial SR will not have SR after that, and the ones that do have SR that generally doesn't bother any 27 caster anyway. Rogue leathers and SR helm are 26, I believe. A 27/3 caster has to roll a 1.

If breach works the way it normally does vs SR on things that isn't from a buff, that means D20+27+(spellpen) versus 16 SR after a mords, which your wizard should always lead with.

Versus a monk, to take your 42 SR example with all 5 feats, that's a D20+27+spellpen versus 32 after Mordenkainen's.

That means on a roll of 1-4 they ignore your spell, you just wasted a full round mordsing them and casting whatever you cast, after hasting yourself, which you've also likely done. As other people have said, that's kindof great. It's a little flimsy considering five epic feats were invested, but the comparison is: Anything else is a 1/20 chance, or in the case of a cleric or otherwise warded character, a 0/20 chance, not a 1/5 chance to resist the spell.

That's a 300% increase in the odds. Versus anything but a wizard, that character is fairly immune to spells as the opposing party will have a hard time even after a Disjunction. But, as other people have pointed out, since Monks no longer get almost every good Epic option for free, they need to be deciding they want to be nearly untouchable to casters over being particularly tanky, or capable of doing any sort of meaningful damage.

This is a choice they can make.

Your 30 TF should be rolling, for a further comparison, 1d20+30+6 (seriously, take spell pen on a TF, I've seen one of those, they are horrific), for an average of 47. You may not likely do well against a monk as a TF in a one to one engagement because the monk is going to get in melee and never leave. You are fully capable of dealing enough damage to kill that monk, however. Even without being breached, that is a 6+ roll, and heaven help them if you have anything to drop a mords on them with, because their SR will not.

There are mundane options to do this, even if TFs are unable to use the scrolls.

The argument being made here is being made in a vacuum where other classes don't exist and their capabilities don't matter. Your highest level characters, built correctly, are pretty much the biggest damage dealing threat, magically, that a monk can face, who are going to be the best equipped to make that magical presence felt. A cleric cannot do that, a Druid has to use other means, such as a ferocious swarm of angry bears/rocks/things.

Anything trying to use spells from wands or scrolls on a monk is doomed to failure, that kind of spell resistance makes Word of Faith even before the change a fair gamble. You should be concerned about their SR, you should also be able to counter it, and in so doing, be able to surmount it. That's the point.

32 SR after disjunction and five epic feats is terrifying, anyone else now has 0, or people wearing items that most people don't use (however they can, and do exist) are now vulnerable to spells cast by much lower level characters. Even without the five epic feats, that's still 32, now 22 SR, which renders one effectively immune to almost any item-cast spells in the game. It can't be removed, it never goes away. That is phenomenal. The fact that it can be high enough to also present a meaningful barrier to full casters that can NEVER be fully removed is a big deal.

The argument in a vacuum that I referred to has a second aspect: the counterargument that light spells should ruin concealment. This may be thematic, but it is ignoring the fact that there are other avenues of counterplay to concealment such as invisibility purge and blindfight. In essence, you can already remove, by calculation of the odds, one-half of anyone and everyone's concealment in the game by taking a feat. Or you can remove it completely with a spell. It can also be breached and dispelled, I believe, in almost every case. Except possibly monks and I suppose if rogues can get something like that, them too.

The counterplay to monk SR and SR in general is breach effects and spell penetration feats/effects. Those are the only counterplays, short of not being a spellcaster, and instead punching the monk.

I hope this gives you some perspective on why there's disagreement with this idea, because there are a lot of very good reasons to disagree. Personally, I don't think it needs more of a nerf, and is pretty fine where it's sitting. We've seen what it was like when it was better, and that wasn't nice.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

It isn't worthless. You're saying 32 Spell Resistance after being breached with Mordenkainen's Disjunction is worthless.

Any other character short of things with racial SR will not have SR after that, and the ones that do have SR that generally doesn't bother any 27 caster anyway. Rogue leathers and SR helm are 26, I believe. A 27/3 caster has to roll a 1.

If breach works the way it normally does vs SR on things that isn't from a buff, that means D20+27+(spellpen) versus 16 SR after a mords, which your wizard should always lead with.

Versus a monk, to take your 42 SR example with all 5 feats, that's a D20+27+spellpen versus 32 after Mordenkainen's.

That means on a roll of 1-4 they ignore your spell, you just wasted a full round mordsing them and casting whatever you cast, after hasting yourself, which you've also likely done. As other people have said, that's kindof great. It's a little flimsy considering five epic feats were invested, but the comparison is: Anything else is a 1/20 chance, or in the case of a cleric or otherwise warded character, a 0/20 chance, not a 1/5 chance to resist the spell.

That's a 300% increase in the odds. Versus anything but a wizard, that character is fairly immune to spells as the opposing party will have a hard time even after a Disjunction. But, as other people have pointed out, since Monks no longer get almost every good Epic option for free, they need to be deciding they want to be nearly untouchable to casters over being particularly tanky, or capable of doing any sort of meaningful damage.

This is a choice they can make.

Your 30 TF should be rolling, for a further comparison, 1d20+30+6 (seriously, take spell pen on a TF, I've seen one of those, they are horrific), for an average of 47. You may not likely do well against a monk as a TF in a one to one engagement because the monk is going to get in melee and never leave. You are fully capable of dealing enough damage to kill that monk, however. Even without being breached, that is a 6+ roll, and heaven help them if you have anything to drop a mords on them with, because their SR will not.

There are mundane options to do this, even if TFs are unable to use the scrolls.

The argument being made here is being made in a vacuum where other classes don't exist and their capabilities don't matter. Your highest level characters, built correctly, are pretty much the biggest damage dealing threat, magically, that a monk can face, who are going to be the best equipped to make that magical presence felt. A cleric cannot do that, a Druid has to use other means, such as a ferocious swarm of angry bears/rocks/things.

Anything trying to use spells from wands or scrolls on a monk is doomed to failure, that kind of spell resistance makes Word of Faith even before the change a fair gamble. You should be concerned about their SR, you should also be able to counter it, and in so doing, be able to surmount it. That's the point.

32 SR after disjunction and five epic feats is terrifying, anyone else now has 0, or people wearing items that most people don't use (however they can, and do exist) are now vulnerable to spells cast by much lower level characters. Even without the five epic feats, that's still 32, now 22 SR, which renders one effectively immune to almost any item-cast spells in the game. It can't be removed, it never goes away. That is phenomenal. The fact that it can be high enough to also present a meaningful barrier to full casters that can NEVER be fully removed is a big deal.

The argument in a vacuum that I referred to has a second aspect: the counterargument that light spells should ruin concealment. This may be thematic, but it is ignoring the fact that there are other avenues of counterplay to concealment such as invisibility purge and blindfight. In essence, you can already remove, by calculation of the odds, one-half of anyone and everyone's concealment in the game by taking a feat. Or you can remove it completely with a spell. It can also be breached and dispelled, I believe, in almost every case. Except possibly monks and I suppose if rogues can get something like that, them too.

The counterplay to monk SR and SR in general is breach effects and spell penetration feats/effects. Those are the only counterplays, short of not being a spellcaster, and instead punching the monk.

I hope this gives you some perspective on why there's disagreement with this idea, because there are a lot of very good reasons to disagree. Personally, I don't think it needs more of a nerf, and is pretty fine where it's sitting. We've seen what it was like when it was better, and that wasn't nice.

The kinds of spells a mundane character wants to use against a monk are not ones that need to worry about to SR. Spells to debuff them or buff self (like flame/acid sheathe to counter their low damage high apr)

The only reason high SR was an unfun thing was because the previous OP monks had all their epic feats for free and lots of cookies for being pure that they could afford the feats for epic spell resistance and still be an unstoppabke combat beast. Before that update, monks didn't usually run around with insane SR because they sacrificed too much for it. Level 30 monk was considered an suboptimal meme build with both its SR and insane speed prior to any monk updates.

Like having SR 100 is useless if your ab and, or damage is to low to hit/hurt a mage who can still counter with non SR spells. Or you know, summon a dragon and, or a weaponmaster.

[Shiki]

Spells that debuff the monk would in fact trigger SR. Spells like Flame/Acid Sheath don't trigger the monk's SR, and are not related to what I said. EXCEPT that they are a counter to the monk, if not the monk's SR, which is not my point.

I did mention the effect of the feats and the fact that monks previously took them because they used to get every other competitive option for free. My discussion was that hypothetically taking all five today still gives monks an effect that is almost wholly exclusive to monks, and I even mentioned that they would not be doing damage if they made those choices.

Monks prior to the update were not relevant to this discussion. We agree on every point.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Druids can cast Nature's Balance, which has a scaling breach effect with abjuration foci, and then spell down a monk.

Self-Concealment is a permanent effect granted by epic feats, and cannot be dispelled, breached, or invisibility purged. Blind-fight squares the miss chance as normal, but before that this is still a 30% (or 40, if you really go for it) potential miss-chance on anything requiring an attack roll. (In a higher level environment you could take this all the way up to 50% and have it still be a 25% miss chance after blind fight).

I don't believe ignoring level 30 caster builds as a point of balance around which Diamond Soul, a class perk specifically meant to make monks resistant to casters, in favor of the more common 27/3 dip, is appropriately balanced for the sake of the feat, nor for thematic immersion. 27/3 is a case of "cake and eat it, too." If you want to penetrate the resistance of a monk with 5 epic feats spent on Improved Spell Resistance, you should be okay needing to be a level 30 caster to do it somewhat reliably.

Speaking of somewhat reliably- there are a variety of spells that I can think of for use against a monk that spent 5 epic feats on Improved SR that render their SR somewhat moot in the first place- great thunderclap, for one (ignores SR), damage shield spells for two (they're certainly going to hit you- a lot- for low damage, compared to your damage shield hitting them back likely as hard or harder while you heal through it), and this doesn't touch upon the summons a caster that isn't locked out of conjuration can produce- although I would put my buffed Mordenkainen's Sword up against an SR focused monk any day- to pound on said monk which focused all their epic efforts on... resisting spells.

Also, Acid Fog, Cloud Kill, and Stinking Cloud.

Why shouldn't a 27/3 fail to penetrate a 30 monk's SR most of the time? Isn't that literally meant to be the opportunity cost of multi-classing (for mages)? My casters are most equipped to deal with the high SR monk because they're designed as level 30 casters, not because of their evocation focus. If anything, their lack of conjuration hurts more than it helps. The SR monk gets to have his cake or eat it- why shouldn't casters be the same?

[AstralUniverse]

Right now a lvl 27 caster needs to roll 5 against 32 sr monk - both characters with 0 feat investement in sr or SR.pen. This is not balanced and not okay.

Now, the monk invests 1 epic feat into epic weapon focus and 5 more epic feats into SR, reaching 42 sr while tossing a lot of their combat effectiveness away - lvl 27 caster now needs to roll 15, without any SR pen investment yet. This is not balanced and not okay.

Anyone saying this is balanced is wrong. This isnt balanced. Casters are already broken in this server. A monk that cripples themselves down to 40-42 ab for the sake of resisting spells SHOULD be much better at resisting spells than how things are now. THAT, or removing the cap and removing the improved SR feats entirely. Something needs to change in favor of monks here.