Monk SR vs. Cleric SR

[Zavandar]

I'm not sure if people gets my point because it's probably hard to understand if you do not know the NWN well.

lol please don't make me roll up my sleeves and churn out a monk gearset that shows you you're wrong. I'm at work

monk gets more base fort and reflex than a wizard, gets way more dex (so more reflex), and is mind immune. You can gear fort and get high levels of fort and ref easily. nearly untouchable saves combined with a high chance for spells to just flat get resisted is bad design

[Kaeldre]

Mordenkainen's Disjunction is not a given in all scenarios with the new changes and the debuff can simply be lifted with restoration potions. I have tested this on Arelith PGCC. In the end, there is counterplay both ways. This is how it should be.

[Biolab00]

I'm not sure if people gets my point because it's probably hard to understand if you do not know the NWN well.

I've removed my post because if the post is actually a result of many trial and errors and so that i do not give too much spoilers.

[Zavandar]

gonna be honest man when you suggested dipping wizard I stopped reading

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

and then the wizard gets kd'd because you went pure and dont have disc

did people like, forget how busted 30 monks with all that sr were? c'mon guys

You and others have made the KD argument, so I'm gonna pop back in here for a bit as it's a new discussion point. The KD argument is grossly flawed. If we're discussing "sneak attacks", we're not discussing number balance, we're discussing situational balance.

I'd like to dispel(u c wut I did thar?) the notion that a level 30 monk is going to do enough damage to you in one round to kill you during the knockdown, which now has a cooldown effect and guarantees you the ability to cast back at them if you survive.

This, of course, as a wizard, assumes that the monk even gets close enough to you to hit you. The monk no longer has speeding bullet train speed, and you're going to see the monk coming just like you would a hasted opponent. As a wizard, you have two immediate options for this. The first is Time Stop, the second is Greater Sanctuary. I prefer GS- it lasts longer (7 rounds at 30) and you're untargetable.

You haste+buff (importantly- acid sheathe/flame shield). You summon. You disjoin the monk from 1/2 screen away, GS drops, and because you're hasted, he can't use a speed advantage to catch you OR to run away. Also, correct placement of an EDK can prevent a monk from charging you when you breach.

SO, you drop a hellball and a G-ruin (if ESF EVO)+ one missile storm, or a pair of maximized isaac's missile storm. This is an AVERAGE of 477.5/480 damage- which I am not convinced a level 30 monk will survive in the first place, but if he does, he's going to be down to less than half health even after a healing potion or wholeness of body.

Timestop. You now have a frozen, <50% monk, breached while you are hasted.

The only alternative a monk has to losing this matchup is to start running as fast and far as they can when the mage uses Greater Sanctuary.

But let's say this monk with ISR5 somehow guesses exactly where you are, and waits with the twitchiest of reflexes to stand right next to you and IKD you as soon as you disjoin them (which is a poor decision on the mage's part as he can see the monk next to him when he casts), against all rational odds.

Let's also say their feat-starved self managed to take improved two-weapon fighting, improved crit, AND we'll say they have blinding speed, for 9 apr. Let's say they hit you EVERY time, and they're swinging a 1d6(not 1d20, because it has to be a weapon to pierce your premonition)+greensteel properties + 5str +6(UAcombat mastery) +1d4 +1d4 +1d4 (enchant, perm, temp on for a 5% greensteel) AND let's also say every attack does MAX damage AND that they generously crit twice with their 18-20 threat range on nine attacks.

That's 264 damage. A 30 wizard with 10 base con(almost none of them) and +12 con from gear/buffs (all of them) has 300 HP. Your IKD is now on cooldown. The monk didn't breach to make this setup happen, so they're out 249 HP minimum for their efforts from the elemental shield, and 294 max. Now, as a monk, you have the option to hit a stunning fist(unequipping your weapons and dropping to fewer APR) while your KD is on cooldown, extending your output time, but this means you aren't healing, and you're continuing to take more damage than the mage, who after con modifiers, may well have a larger HP pool than comparable HP pool to you since monks aiming to be this combat beast we're supposedly describing need STR, DEX, and WIS already, and the wizard in this scenario has only cast one disjunction offensively, leaving their full range of finishing options available.

The wizard is winning this fight simply by damage shielding, and if the monk stops attacking for a potion/healing/breaching animation, the mage can follow up with -pray and end them.

You can say all of this relies on player skill, but the truth is this is a very generic, binary PvP play for a mage. It's not advanced. The most complicated part is not blowing your Time Stop or -pray early, and that is a uniform thing- it has nothing to do with the monk being good, much less Too Good because of SR.

[Zavandar]

your damage numbers are off and the monk you have described just presses right click and kd. There are a lot of variables you're not considering, like sneaking, how much distance there is, corners, and the fact a monk's ac is high enough to not care about a summon

Anyone that sits there and attacks into a damage shield deserves to lose. A lot of monks can also build for hips now. Dont forget the breach that takes off the acid sheathe is probably taking the premo too, so now you're just running around and facing potential disruption any time you cast because the monk is hitting you.

You also have NO ac as a full 30 wizard, so every hit is getting you.

why do you have the wizard praying but not the monk???

like did you intentionally write this monk as braindead?

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Edit. I had some good points, but honestly, I'm going to bow out again, because I misquoted hellball damage, and I clearly should stop posting from my phone. My bad.

[Zavandar]

in what world does hellball do 40d10 damage

in what world are you using gsteel kama when the +4 enh ones with keen and bonus damage exist

between pray, wholeness, and heal pots, that load you blew at the start just got nullified, and when they breach you and subsequently kd you, you're on the back foot.

your argument is misinformed

[the grim yeeter]

i've practically studied almost every builds.

i'm not sure how exactly you went about this, but if you actually have, something must've gone wrong somewhere, because a lot of the things you've said give the impression that you have little understanding of the game's mechanics and building in general

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Mordenkainen's Disjunction is not a given in all scenarios with the new changes and the debuff can simply be lifted with restoration potions. I have tested this on Arelith PGCC. In the end, there is counterplay both ways. This is how it should be.

This is good to hear. The monk doesn't even require lore for said counter play and their whole ness of body should work before tapping into restoration potions.

I think lack of both way counterplay was bothering me. Like a mage can rebuff but a monk can re-apply SR.

I still think its a damn shame that monk don't really scale past lvl 20 for two of their most iconic monk things, but this conversation completely changes if they can restore their SR.

[Biolab00]

i've practically studied almost every builds.

i'm not sure how exactly you went about this, but if you actually have, something must've gone wrong somewhere, because a lot of the things you've said give the impression that you have little understanding of the game's mechanics and building in general

The build that i mentioned about the barbarian / bard is achievable without compromising the AB which will hit between 48 - 52. But i have removed it because i think that i'm giving out much spoilers because it's possible to get even higher than my stated saving throws without any equipment.

And regarding the Bard / Wiz cross-class , it's done so intentionally. Since i've removed my original post, i can clarify to you that sometimes things can be read from the other way round and not rigidly.

[AstralUniverse]

and then the wizard gets kd'd because you went pure and dont have disc

I intentionally used a wizard with no discipline in my example, because I also used a monk with an investment of 6 epic epics. If the wizard were to take 27 lvls, then it's up to 50% exactly, before breach. Balanced?

did people like, forget how busted 30 monks with all that sr were? c'mon guys

Well, to be fair, a river of powerful free feats caused it. There was no reason not to take improved SR. Now you need to give up essential things to become an invested anti-mage. You shouldnt be able to multiclass into e-dodge or invest in combat epic feats and remain reliable anti-mage. But you should have the option to be reliable if you sacrifice enough for it. Currently, improved SR is a bait feat and monks fill a different niche.

[Nitro]

How is 50% against the most common 27/3 variant not reliable?

[Nobs]

Ah yes the need to be OP

Is this where i can ask for a rogue boost so we get good over all saves , crit like a WM and some other cool stuff like acces to hellball?

[Zavandar]

A 50% chance for a spell to fail when you also have saves to contend with and concentration checks if you're being attacked when you ALSO have a finite number of spells is not good design

I'm not going to repeat myself. this isnt a playstyle that should be accommodated.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

A 50% chance for a spell to fail when you also have saves to contend with and concentration checks if you're being attacked when you ALSO have a finite number of spells is not good design

I'm not going to repeat myself. this isnt a playstyle that should be accommodated.

50% when a side chooses to not invest in spell penetration feats which is way less investment than epic spell resistance.

Regardless, if restoration does undo breach lowering SR, then I see no issue having it breachable.

I do like the suggestion that epic spell resistance as a feat gets removed along with the SR cap. Pure monk is not a good build anymore and spell penetration feat should have some merit to it.