Dust. *spoilers/bad idea/ only for good aligned players*

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Reallylongunneededplayername
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Dust. *spoilers/bad idea/ only for good aligned players*

Post by Reallylongunneededplayername » Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:48 am

Dust comes at 0 value.

John the Slime figures out he can make his greestone dust look like emerald dust!

John takes a temp shop "Emerald dust for sale!"

John makes lots of sales.

Henny the Cobbler tries to make boots out of the dust, Henny notices his boots won't stick. Henny is confused.

-So, Disclaimer, I have not heard of anything like this happening, But it crossed my mind as a possible event-

If this is not agains the rules.

Maybe give dusts value?
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JustMonika
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Re: Dust. *spoilers/bad idea/ only for good aligned players*

Post by JustMonika » Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:38 pm

Tricking people into buying stuff they don't want is perfectly legtimate evil roleplay.

Of course. Your names on the shop, so there might be a lynching from unhappy clients...

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Re: Dust. *spoilers/bad idea/ only for good aligned players*

Post by Nitro » Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:50 pm

JustMonika wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:38 pm
Tricking people into buying stuff they don't want is perfectly legtimate evil roleplay.

Of course. Your names on the shop, so there might be a lynching from unhappy clients...
Renaming/redescribing an item leaves no trace, nothing to indicate it's a fake. That doesn't seem particularly fair, legitimate or nice.

satan
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Re: Dust. *spoilers/bad idea/ only for good aligned players*

Post by satan » Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:04 pm

Not too long ago someone was selling fake heal potions in the hub this way. The was some salt...
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Re: Dust. *spoilers/bad idea/ only for good aligned players*

Post by JustMonika » Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:42 pm

Nitro wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:50 pm
JustMonika wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:38 pm
Tricking people into buying stuff they don't want is perfectly legtimate evil roleplay.

Of course. Your names on the shop, so there might be a lynching from unhappy clients...
Renaming/redescribing an item leaves no trace, nothing to indicate it's a fake. That doesn't seem particularly fair, legitimate or nice.
Well yes.
Otherwise no-one would ever buy them.
Oh look this item says in it's description 'Fake', my character who sees this will obviously spend their gold on that.
The player is putting themselves at risk by having a -real- character name on their shop, can't diguise that, and stand to be pariah'd, exiled, killbashed, and never allowed to run a shop again.

This seems totally legit. Also they can only fake pointless stuff. You can't fake a runed keen Mastlerly sword. Or any gear, for example.

Be able to -posion- the potions you're selling would be even better. Conflict is good.
We have to be nice to players. Not to characters.

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Re: Dust. *spoilers/bad idea/ only for good aligned players*

Post by Xarge VI » Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:52 pm

Im no authority but years ago my illusionist dude tried to convince pursuers he was dead. I renamed a corpse and disguised as a bountyhunter.

There came a dm ruling that its not a legit way to go about it as i didnt put any indicators of illusion in the description.

Id assume same applies on gem dust.

Archnon
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Re: Dust. *spoilers/bad idea/ only for good aligned players*

Post by Archnon » Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:31 pm

Honestly, this reads like an abuse of a game mechanic to turn a profit and not an RP hook and hope a DM chimes in soon. Yes, there can be in character consequences for such actions, but the mechanical questions abound. Does renamed dust stack? Will it stack in a gem bag....

I have noticed that if you take ownership of an alcohol product, rename it and pick up more of the same bottle/alcohol type, then it will adopt that name you chose. However, if you transfer it to another player, who is holding the original alcohol name and description, it will stack with that and wipe the changes. I am guessing that dust will be the same and greenstone dust that is renamed and redescribed will just turn back into greenstone dust on purchase once it stacks with your old dust. This leaves no option for RPing. The proof of the deception disappears.
Xarge VI wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:52 pm
Im no authority but years ago my illusionist dude tried to convince pursuers he was dead. I renamed a corpse and disguised as a bountyhunter.

There came a dm ruling that its not a legit way to go about it as i didnt put any indicators of illusion in the description.

Id assume same applies on gem dust.


I think this is different and more creative. There is an actual RP point. However, i think the sentiment holds true. However combined with the fact that the even a description that reads "It's emerald dust, but something seems off" is gonna disappear when stacked will eliminate the chance of properly RPing this.

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Re: Dust. *spoilers/bad idea/ only for good aligned players*

Post by Definately Not A Mimic » Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:18 pm

I could be wrong, but I'm almost positive at one point there was a ruling saying such a thing was a breach of rules when someone was selling.. It was either the 'small pouch' random loot or dye from the boot shop.. as spell components. There has to be something in name/description that indicates that the object is not what it seems to be.

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Re: Dust. *spoilers/bad idea/ only for good aligned players*

Post by Nitro » Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:37 pm

JustMonika wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:42 pm
We have to be nice to players. Not to characters.
Please explain to me how tricking another player by abusing the games system to make them think they're buying something they're not, with no means of telling that it's not, is nice to that player.

JustMonika
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Re: Dust. *spoilers/bad idea/ only for good aligned players*

Post by JustMonika » Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:29 pm

Nitro wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:37 pm
JustMonika wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:42 pm
We have to be nice to players. Not to characters.
Please explain to me how tricking another player by abusing the games system to make them think they're buying something they're not, with no means of telling that it's not, is nice to that player.
You are not tricking that player. You are tricking that players character.

If I send a tell to you, the player going, 'BRO! SWEET DEAL ON SPELL COMPONENTS IN THE NOMAD.'

I am tricking you, the player.

If a pirate opens a shop outside of Cordor, selling, 'GEN-U-INE SPELL COMPONENTS, 10 Gold A pouch!' Then the character is tricking your character.
Please remember when bad things happen to your character, they are not happening to you. We are all telling a story. In stories, bad things happen, and we are -not- and should not be in charge of when they happen to us.

This can be equated to PvP.

I kill your character because I hate you? I am being nasty to you, the player.

My character PvPs your character after three lines of dialogue because he doesn't like your hair? Just about within the rules, but exceptionally poor taste, and discouraged.

I PvP you after several encounters, tension, and dialogue? Often very different.

In this situation, I would find it poor taste if a normal merchant with a normal store had randomly added some pouches disguised as spell components and priced exactly the same, and were never near their stall.

That would be different if a merchant was hawking them at cut price in a temp stall outside the Nomad filled with other, odd items at great prices.
Last edited by JustMonika on Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Nitro
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Re: Dust. *spoilers/bad idea/ only for good aligned players*

Post by Nitro » Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:32 pm

That's some impressive mental gymnastics.

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Drowble Oh Seven
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Re: Dust. *spoilers/bad idea/ only for good aligned players*

Post by Drowble Oh Seven » Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:57 pm

Good idea, if done with changed descriptions on the items and the merchant present at a temporary store, making it very clear to the players that this is an RP opportunity, not someone trying to scam them. Having a description on the items indicating it's fake is fine, because the players can then choose whether they want to let their characters be fooled. Plenty of people will. These are the people who are, in that moment, interested in engaging with you.

They'll be folks who, understandably, just want to grab their spell components and get on with whatever else they were doing. That's also fine and they shouldn't, as players, be dragged into a narrative they're not interested in.

An item that looks identical to other items, and gives no indication to a player OOC - even though, in reality, it's a fake and that would be apparent to someone who knew what they were looking for - is Most Uncool and taking advantage of the fact we've only got so many base items to play with.
JustMonika wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:29 pm
Please remember when bad things happen to your character, they are not happening to you. We are all telling a story. In stories, bad things happen, and we are -not- and should not be in charge of when they happen to us.
This, I think, is where I fundamentally disagree with you. Characters should absolutely experience bad things beyond their control. But for the players who control them it should always be a choice. Plenty of players will lean into the opportunity for bad things when it's presented, and those who don't are likely to resent it being forced on them.

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Re: Dust. *spoilers/bad idea/ only for good aligned players*

Post by Wuthering » Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:35 pm

If a shady merchant took a temporary stall and made a big show of being a snake-oil salesman hawking obviously mislabeled goods I'd probably hand them all my money just to support the RP.

Mislabeling shop goods sold when you're nowhere around seems like you'd be explaining yourself to a pissed-off DM pretty quickly. Maybe it's technically allowed or maybe not but if it is I'd expect that loophole to get closed after a few players felt burned.
Last edited by Wuthering on Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

JustMonika
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Re: Dust. *spoilers/bad idea/ only for good aligned players*

Post by JustMonika » Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:35 pm

JustMonika wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:29 pm
Please remember when bad things happen to your character, they are not happening to you. We are all telling a story. In stories, bad things happen, and we are -not- and should not be in charge of when they happen to us.
This, I think, is where I fundamentally disagree with you. Characters should absolutely experience bad things beyond their control. But for the players who control them it should always be a choice. Plenty of players will lean into the opportunity for bad things when it's presented, and those who don't are likely to resent it being forced on them.
[/quote]

Alas, a fundemental disagreement indeed.

Our characters die when dungeon crawling. This is not our choice.
We lose PvP we did not start or expect. This is not our choice.
Pickpocketed? Not your choice.
Quarters Robbed? Not your choice.
New administration in Cordor takes over, and takes your shop and gives it to a halfing? Not your choice.

Our characters are victims of the world and the actions of players around us. The very fact this is a co-operative narrative experience means we can't, and shouldn't, have complete control over what happens. Otherwise you can write a story yourself, without other people.
What we have control over is what they do, and how they react - Not what other characters do.

You may say that it is unfair because there is no skill roll involved, so you can't reasonably know if it's a fake.
You can equally say that it is unfair for the fakee to have to describe it, because now you can't unreasonably know it's real.

Not having control of the story is a -good- thing. It's why we're here. Arelith would be nothing without the elements we can't control -The Other Characters-

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Re: Dust. *spoilers/bad idea/ only for good aligned players*

Post by JubJub » Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:39 am

Always seemed wrong to me because there is no IG way for the character to detect the fake. If there was a way for someone to have a chance to detect the fake that would be one thing. But changing the description to appear as something else is abusing the mechanics. How is it adding to rp? How did you get greenstone dust to look like emerald dust? All the player did was copy another description simply top trick another player. A master tailor who has made elven boots should be able to tell the difference between emerald and greenstone dust. But there is no way for them to do so. Simply changing a description to match another description is an ooc manipulation of the mechanics.

Johnsmith
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Re: Dust. *spoilers/bad idea/ only for good aligned players*

Post by Johnsmith » Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:45 am

On the other hand, OP wasn’t killed. Nobody lost a quarter or shop. Op was cheated out of a few gold,and though I don’t know the details, it seems an awesome con for me, one that could continue to create fun RP for all involved as revenge is sought, for example. That’s a bargain buy for a few lost coins.

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Re: Dust. *spoilers/bad idea/ only for good aligned players*

Post by Nitro » Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:24 am

Johnsmith wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:45 am
On the other hand, OP wasn’t killed. Nobody lost a quarter or shop. Op was cheated out of a few gold,and though I don’t know the details, it seems an awesome con for me, one that could continue to create fun RP for all involved as revenge is sought, for example. That’s a bargain buy for a few lost coins.
If someone renames bronze ingots to addy ingots we can talk about a lot more than just "a few" lost coins.

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Re: Dust. *spoilers/bad idea/ only for good aligned players*

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:14 am

In terms of being able to identify forgeries on inspection, doesn't every item give its gold cost on the examine description nowadays?
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Re: Dust. *spoilers/bad idea/ only for good aligned players*

Post by Wuthering » Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:17 am

If it's an in-person con involving the seller pushing the bogus goods on an unsuspecting buyer it would be great.

If it's just in shops that's abstractly OK but when you get down to it it's just not good for the server for quite a few reasons.

Think about the shop system. You have to buy into something that probably doesn't work in the world the way it's represented. There probably aren't these magical shops out there that are completely unattended and theft-proof and somehow able to take your money and add it to your bank account, all in an era without WiFi and Apple Pay. Ideally there would be an attendant hired by the PC to handle sales if the PC themself was too important or busy to watch it all day. But there isn't, so to facilitate an in-game economy that encourages crafting and trade between PCs who have very different playtimes and who may never otherwise meet we all accept this system at face value and don't ask too many questions.

I think adding rampant counterfeiting in shops would wreck this fragile mass-illusion we've all agreed to. It's not going to create meaningful RP after, just cause confusion and bitterness and mistrust in the game itself. The crafting system is already pretty wonky with some items that don't work as they should or work from one source but not others. If a misleadingly labeled crafting component doesn't let you complete a recipe are you going to think it's because you got scammed or are you going to file a bug report because you think a dev screwed something up? It's just going to cause a mess IC and OOC if it's rampant, much more than it would create meaningful RP. Not to mention it would hit less experienced players the hardest since they wouldn't know items well enough to tell if something's up.

Like I said I think it's a cool idea.. If the scammer is actively scamming the victim in person using sleazy sales tactics and (if necessary) disguise. In the shops it's just a huge mess that relies heavily on OOC confusion, loopholes and exploiting mechanical limitations instead of clever storytelling. And besides, if you know anything about how DMs rule around here, do you really think it would be allowed?

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Drowble Oh Seven
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Re: Dust. *spoilers/bad idea/ only for good aligned players*

Post by Drowble Oh Seven » Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:08 am

JustMonika wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:35 pm
Not having control of the story is a -good- thing. It's why we're here. Arelith would be nothing without the elements we can't control -The Other Characters-
For sure. I'm not trying to stomp on the idea. :) At its heart, I think it's cool and it's got the potential for making a lot of fun.

Things happen beyond our control, without doubt. I'm just of the opinion that, wherever possible, we should give other players a choice. The examples you provided, while permitted - I don't think they're the sort of action that creates fun consequences without the consent of the victim. Death, item loss, etc, means as much as the victim lets it mean, and that's more likely to be meaningful if they're on board with telling the story as well.

You capture someone, you try to offer them an out. You gear up for PvP, you offer some non-violent conclusion to it - 'I'll let you go if you say a prayer to Our Holy Lord Bane!' - that sort of thing.

The game's limited in its scope to provide options, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for them as players. It doesn't always happen, but it's a nice ideal. Notifying fellow players of our intent (in this case, by something in the description indicating it's a fake that they can choose to believe in) just seems like giving them a heads up on the sort of narrative you're shaping, and whether they want to be involved in it. The fact the gemstones are fake can be hidden from characters, but shouldn't be hidden from players.

Sure. Some folks might take that chance to ruin the story. But, as the antagonist in this scenario, the burden of let's make it fun falls on the PC initiating it - Which is a false-gem salesman here.

And if they don't want to be involved in it, I'd argue a more relevant question then whether you're permitted to force them into it is 'Will having a player who doesn't want in improve this story?'

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Re: Dust. *spoilers/bad idea/ only for good aligned players*

Post by godhand- » Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:14 am

whilst mechanically possible, isn't this arguably a breach of the be nice rule? its arguably abusing ingame mechanics to be a douche.

One could arguably farm sapphires and renamed them star sapphs etc. to the player they look the same, but wouldn't the in character toon be able to spot the difference? Just because the use the same icon in your inventory doesn't make them the same.
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Re: Dust. *spoilers/bad idea/ only for good aligned players*

Post by MissEvelyn » Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:57 am

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:14 am
In terms of being able to identify forgeries on inspection, doesn't every item give its gold cost on the examine description nowadays?
Yes. Hence why detecting an obvious con like this would be simple enough, especially when the difference is something like a copper ingot and an adamantinum ingot.


Nitro
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Re: Dust. *spoilers/bad idea/ only for good aligned players*

Post by Nitro » Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:05 am

MissEvelyn wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:57 am
Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:14 am
In terms of being able to identify forgeries on inspection, doesn't every item give its gold cost on the examine description nowadays?
Yes. Hence why detecting an obvious con like this would be simple enough, especially when the difference is something like a copper ingot and an adamantinum ingot.
As the OP notes though, dusts have no value. So a greenstone dust renamed into emerald dust is completely undetectable.

JustMonika
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Re: Dust. *spoilers/bad idea/ only for good aligned players*

Post by JustMonika » Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:19 pm

This thread has been about,

'Is this permissable'

Not, 'Is this great RP?'

It is permissable, as it stands, unless a rule is made against it, and as might be apparent the general concenus is that it's as great an RP as you make it, from god-awful, to pretty neat. That's true of every interaction.

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Re: Dust. *spoilers/bad idea/ only for good aligned players*

Post by Johnsmith » Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:00 pm

I read the OP as asking that gem dust to be given a tiny value so we can tell them apart! It sounds good to me.

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