Sorcerer spell adjustment

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-XXX-
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Sorcerer spell adjustment

Post by -XXX- » Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:35 am

With the -losexp feature gone and constant changes to spells things can become a little awkward for a max lvl character with sorc lvls really fast.

I'd really appreciate some IG means to change spells for sorcerers (other than at lvl-up)
There are niche toys for wizards (wild mages can adjust their affinity to chaos) and yet sorcerers can't even ditch that oh-not-so-hot-anymore polymorph self spell for a more useful one while having much less spell slots available

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Re: Sorcerer spell adjustment

Post by JustMonika » Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:42 am

If sorcerers were able to change their spell slots at will, they'd be much better wizards.
Having to pick the spells that suit your characters theme is the main part of the class.

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Re: Sorcerer spell adjustment

Post by AstralUniverse » Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:16 am

JustMonika wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:42 am
If sorcerers were able to change their spell slots at will, they'd be much better wizards.
Having to pick the spells that suit your characters theme is the main part of the class.
Sorcerers can unlearn spells when they level up, right? They should be able to change spells when at lvl 30 too. Its really unfair towards a new player that wants to learn the class to be 'stuck' at lvl 30 with crappy spells they picked while learning the game. It doesnt make them better than wizards. They are already more powerful than wizards in mage duel but wizards have way, way more cookies. This isnt a comparison to Wizard and I hope this thread doesnt turn to one of those.
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Re: Sorcerer spell adjustment

Post by -XXX- » Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:31 am

I'm not proposing for sorcerers to be able to select spells at will for the funzies.
Merely that there is an option to change spells when needed, incorporated into the module (a remote NPC like Kirvayas or something similar).

Consider this:
You picked the spell in its original form and not whatever altered version that the Devs come up with afterwards.
In a way it's very similar to feats being changed after you selected them. You can see how that can become a rather considerable inconvenience (especially when taking into account how limited the number of spells and feats is in the case of a sorcerer).
Note that sorcerers do in fact possess the ability to completely overhaul their spell list each time they lvl up. Before last fall you'd just -losexp and select another spell each time one of your previously selected ones was nerfed into oblivion - no big deal.

How'd you address this now though? I don't think that offering -relevels to sorcerers each time the Devs make a change to any spell is very viable.

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Re: Sorcerer spell adjustment

Post by JustMonika » Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:44 am

-XXX- wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:31 am
I'm not proposing for sorcerers to be able to select spells at will for the funzies.
Merely that there is an option to change spells when needed, incorporated into the module (a remote NPC like Kirvayas or something similar).

Consider this:
You picked the spell in its original form and not whatever altered version that the Devs come up with afterwards.
In a way it's very similar to feats being changed after you selected them. You can see how that can become a rather considerable inconvenience (especially when taking into account how limited the number of spells and feats is in the case of a sorcerer).
Note that sorcerers do in fact possess the ability to completely overhaul their spell list each time they lvl up. Before last fall you'd just -losexp and select another spell each time one of your previously selected ones was nerfed into oblivion - no big deal.

How'd you address this now though? I don't think that offering -relevels to sorcerers each time the Devs make a change to any spell is very viable.
I've played a Sorcerer for the last eight years, and only changed her spells twice, both due to a re-level. I really don't think this is a big deal.

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Re: Sorcerer spell adjustment

Post by -XXX- » Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:53 am

Well, then your experience varies from mine.
For instance the last major update to spells straight up removed high level spells from my character's spell list and I ended up with a massively hampered character up until the DEV team offered a -relevel to characters because of the Lore/UMD change.

Clearly you won't feel changes to spells when you've never selected those spells in the first place.
It's easy to dismiss an issue that doesn't affect you personally, but that doesn't necessarily have to mean that it is not present and doesn't needlessly affect other players in a negative way.

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Re: Sorcerer spell adjustment

Post by Biolab00 » Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:05 am

This is the almost the same issue on Real Logic Vs convenience(or balance?)

I'll quote an example,
1) Nwn allows sorcerer to change spells at will when they level up.
It's actually not that right in real life for sorcerer to change spell at will because well, as mentioned that they aren't wizard and mostly due to bloodline as mentioned by nwn case, dragon blood etc.

2) nwn allows disarm feat to throw the weapons once disarmed to the ground.
It's actually not right now that disarm doesn't throw the weapon to the ground because in a fight, when your opponent knocks away your weapon, it can't possibly goes to your backpack or disabled since you're technically not holding it.

OK so, it's really a matter of whether the issue is seriously affecting us, player's comfort zone

That's my view, you may not agree while I respect too.

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Re: Sorcerer spell adjustment

Post by Hinty » Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:11 am

AstralUniverse wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:16 am
Sorcerers can unlearn spells when they level up, right? They should be able to change spells when at lvl 30 too. Its really unfair towards a new player that wants to learn the class to be 'stuck' at lvl 30 with crappy spells they picked while learning the game.
You get to pick your last spell at level 20.
You then get Ten level ups to get used to your spells, learn them and swap a few in and out.
How many chances do you need?

That's without the previous 20 levels.

A sorcerers magic comes from the blood. They don't get to choose what spells they cast, they get to cast whatever spells life gives them, frankly a Sorcerer isn't a Sorcerer without a few spells they wish they could cast, or spells they just never seem to have a use for.

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Re: Sorcerer spell adjustment

Post by Wuthering » Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:21 am

Biolab00 wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:05 am
It's actually not that right in real life for sorcerer to change spell at will because well, as mentioned that they aren't wizard and mostly due to bloodline as mentioned by nwn case, dragon blood etc.
No, in real life sorcerers have to go to the Bureau of Magic high atop the tallest mountain in Switzerland and petition the Archivizier for arcane realignment.

In the game maybe sorcerers could get a break and have a DM -losexp to level 29 to change out a few spells once in a great while especially if they RP towards it or if new custom spells are introduced. I can see the argument for not being able to do it all the time but if the player doesn't abuse the privilege and it would make the character more satisfying to play, why not?

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Re: Sorcerer spell adjustment

Post by Biolab00 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:42 am

Wuthering wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:21 am
Biolab00 wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:05 am
It's actually not that right in real life for sorcerer to change spell at will because well, as mentioned that they aren't wizard and mostly due to bloodline as mentioned by nwn case, dragon blood etc.
No, in real life sorcerers have to go to the Bureau of Magic high atop the tallest mountain in Switzerland and petition the Archivizier for arcane realignment.

In the game maybe sorcerers could get a break and have a DM -losexp to level 29 to change out a few spells once in a great while especially if they RP towards it or if new custom spells are introduced. I can see the argument for not being able to do it all the time but if the player doesn't abuse the privilege and it would make the character more satisfying to play, why not?
Uh, i probably mis-wrote. the Real Life case for Sorcerer that i mentioned is actually based on DnD and Faerun lore.
Though, I should have used a better word to describe.

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Re: Sorcerer spell adjustment

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:35 am

Biolab00 wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:05 am

OK so, it's really a matter of whether the issue is seriously affecting us, player's comfort zone

That's my view, you may not agree while I respect too.
I think this was your actual point (at the end) and the portion that was quoted was more a little out of context without the rest of the point it led up to, and I'm inclined to agree with your overall sentiment.

With that said, lore-wise (yep, here I go again)- https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm
A sorcerer’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new sorcerer level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. The sorcerer can’t use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however.

Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the sorcerer "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level sorcerer spell the sorcerer can cast. A sorcerer may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.
Sorcerers literally use their Charisma to access magic. We can, without stretching much (at all), paraphrase this to say that they determine something to be so, and reality obligingly shapes itself to accommodate accordingly - within a certain limited set of talents.

Based on the rules as written in core, it seems somewhat normal for them as they grow and learn to determine that they may need new tricks- and like everything else in their life, reality accommodates - and occasionally spend time and resources developing new powers of specific interest to replace old ones that are no longer as relevant. They never get to swap 8th or 9th level spells in core, but everything else is fair game.
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Re: Sorcerer spell adjustment

Post by Wuthering » Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:36 am

Well.. There are times when the answers are found in Forgotten Realms lore. This isn’t one of them. There’s little point in arguing whether sorcerers are or aren’t able to swap spells because they can do it all they want when leveling up, that is built into the game. You may or may not not like it but most sorcerers are going to use it because (for example) that summon creature vi spell is going to be useless as soon as you get vii.

The question then is whether a level 30 sorcerer should have a mechanical way to swap spells. They used to when -losexp was a thing. That was turned off due to abuse (not necessarily by sorcerers, but no doubt it was used too much by them as well.)

Now the only possible way is to ask a DM to de-level you. I think and hope it should be something like changing your name or portrait that a DM would do for you if you’re a player in good standing and don’t abuse the privilege. That seems about right, a lv 30 sorcerer should be able to ask a DM to help swap spells one or two times in their existence just for the sake of playability. Being able to swap weekly, that’s probably pushing it.

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Re: Sorcerer spell adjustment

Post by -XXX- » Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:03 pm

a) Whether or not sorcerers should be able to overhaul their spell list in a vacuum is certainly open up for a debate and I have no doubt that perfectly valid reasons why they should or shouldn't could be found on both sides of the argument.

b) Whether or not sorcerers should be able to cast away an altered spell (or rather "nerfed" by the DEVs after the fact) in favor of another one is an entirely different discussion altogether. Personally, I am leaning more towards the option in which they would be allowed this (admittedly for entirely selfish reasons of course).

Fact remains that as it stands today NWN does indeed allow sorcerers to overhaul their spell list over the course of their level progression (I tend to agree with the point outlined by AstralUniverse ~ it's just one of those cases where the game overlooks the more rigid aspects of the lore in favor of simply being more fun).
IMO allowing this option for those who have reached max lvl would represent a major QoL improvement for literally all parties involved, would be more practical while at the same time more IC

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Re: Sorcerer spell adjustment

Post by cowboy » Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:18 pm

they should probably just let everyone undoing their last level on their own automatically; but if you take any of the crafting feats or switch classes to gain a language it sends up a flag to keep an eye on silly billies
If lawyers are disbarred and clergymen are defrocked, shouldn't it follow that cowboys would be deranged?

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Re: Sorcerer spell adjustment

Post by Nitro » Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:24 pm

Hinty wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:11 am
You get to pick your last spell at level 20.
You then get Ten level ups to get used to your spells, learn them and swap a few in and out.
How many chances do you need?

That's without the previous 20 levels.
I guess if you ignore the fact that spells get changed and new ones added, yes.

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Re: Sorcerer spell adjustment

Post by Ork » Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:49 pm

This feature should exist in a no -losexp arelith.

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Re: Sorcerer spell adjustment

Post by Void » Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:04 pm

Hinty wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:11 am
AstralUniverse wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:16 am
Sorcerers can unlearn spells when they level up, right? They should be able to change spells when at lvl 30 too. Its really unfair towards a new player that wants to learn the class to be 'stuck' at lvl 30 with crappy spells they picked while learning the game.
You get to pick your last spell at level 20.
You then get Ten level ups to get used to your spells, learn them and swap a few in and out.
How many chances do you need?

That's without the previous 20 levels.

A sorcerers magic comes from the blood. They don't get to choose what spells they cast, they get to cast whatever spells life gives them, frankly a Sorcerer isn't a Sorcerer without a few spells they wish they could cast, or spells they just never seem to have a use for.
Some time ago I unshelved an old sorcerer character of mine, and found that some spells were simply removed from the spellbook, due to the server side spell level changed. The character was rolled afterwards, as fixing this was too inconvenient.

In a situation where spells change sorcerers should be offered an option to relevel. It is not about "getting used to spells". it is about situation when your character suddenly breaks due to server-side change that was entirely out of your control.
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Re: Sorcerer spell adjustment

Post by AstralUniverse » Mon Feb 17, 2020 9:15 pm

Hinty wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:11 am
AstralUniverse wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:16 am
Sorcerers can unlearn spells when they level up, right? They should be able to change spells when at lvl 30 too. Its really unfair towards a new player that wants to learn the class to be 'stuck' at lvl 30 with crappy spells they picked while learning the game.
You get to pick your last spell at level 20.
You then get Ten level ups to get used to your spells, learn them and swap a few in and out.
How many chances do you need?

That's without the previous 20 levels.

A sorcerers magic comes from the blood. They don't get to choose what spells they cast, they get to cast whatever spells life gives them, frankly a Sorcerer isn't a Sorcerer without a few spells they wish they could cast, or spells they just never seem to have a use for.
Its not the number of chances, its the principle. A sorcerer is a MUCH more fun class to play when you know you will have a chance to switch spells one day.
Wuthering wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:21 am
In the game maybe sorcerers could get a break and have a DM -losexp to level 29 to change out a few spells once in a great while especially if they RP towards it or if new custom spells are introduced. I can see the argument for not being able to do it all the time but if the player doesn't abuse the privilege and it would make the character more satisfying to play, why not?
I have a sorcerer and I may never need switching spells after lvl 30 but if I would, and cant -losexp, I'd just ask a DM in game or even in forum PM to active DMs and try my luck.
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Re: Sorcerer spell adjustment

Post by Wuthering » Mon Feb 17, 2020 9:29 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:03 pm
a) Whether or not sorcerers should be able to overhaul their spell list in a vacuum is certainly open up for a debate and I have no doubt that perfectly valid reasons why they should or shouldn't could be found on both sides of the argument.
I agree in principle. However the game does let you and it's an all but mandatory practice since the low-to-mid level spells you need at level 9 or 15 are vastly different than the spells you need at level 30. So I am really wary of anyone trying to shame sorcerers who swap out spells along the way because that "goes against lore." I think we need to accept that this is what sorcerers do when "in training" and move on.

Whether they should be able to at 30 is the debate, and I'd err on the side of giving players a little leeway to occasionally ask DMs for adjustments but not let sorcs swap out spells every time they go on a different adventure.

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Re: Sorcerer spell adjustment

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:06 pm

Hinty wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:11 am

A sorcerers magic comes from the blood. They don't get to choose what spells they cast, they get to cast whatever spells life gives them, frankly a Sorcerer isn't a Sorcerer without a few spells they wish they could cast, or spells they just never seem to have a use for.
This restriction is 100% false and not backed up by lore or rules in any edition of 3.x - this is a custom, home interpretation of the rules, and you're welcome to play your sorcerer as randomly stumbling into their powers throughout their life if you please, but sorcerers are absolutely allowed to direct their talents and attempt to learn specific powers and spells as they please- in fact, the rules text for them learning spells even directly mentions that they might even be able to learn other spells besides the ones on the sorcerer/wizard list when they level up, if they have a means to study said magic.

Claiming otherwise incorrectly may cause people to feel compelled to RP that way, so I feel the need to point it out.

Their magic is borne to them, but rather than saying they randomly develop powers they have no control over, it's more accurate to say that their magic is like an extra muscle that they learn to use and flex - and early on in their discovery, they may accidentally blow themselves or someone else up, just like when you first learn to walk and you've never used your legs that way before you might fall on your face.
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Re: Sorcerer spell adjustment

Post by Hinty » Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:20 pm

Nitro wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:24 pm
Hinty wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:11 am
You get to pick your last spell at level 20.
You then get Ten level ups to get used to your spells, learn them and swap a few in and out.
How many chances do you need?

That's without the previous 20 levels.
I guess if you ignore the fact that spells get changed and new ones added, yes.

That is a different issue. If new spells are added, or old spells changed drastically or removed, then of course all Sorcerers should be given the chance to adjust their spell list in response.

Giving Sorcerers the ability to change at any time, just in case a change is made is not a solution to that issue. Its giving a child all the cookies they want because one day their blood sugar might get a bit low.

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Re: Sorcerer spell adjustment

Post by Hinty » Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:21 pm

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:06 pm
Hinty wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:11 am

A sorcerers magic comes from the blood. They don't get to choose what spells they cast, they get to cast whatever spells life gives them, frankly a Sorcerer isn't a Sorcerer without a few spells they wish they could cast, or spells they just never seem to have a use for.
This restriction is 100% false and not backed up by lore or rules in any edition of 3.x - this is a custom, home interpretation of the rules, and you're welcome to play your sorcerer as randomly stumbling into their powers throughout their life if you please, but sorcerers are absolutely allowed to direct their talents and attempt to learn specific powers and spells as they please- in fact, the rules text for them learning spells even directly mentions that they might even be able to learn other spells besides the ones on the sorcerer/wizard list when they level up, if they have a means to study said magic.

Claiming otherwise incorrectly may cause people to feel compelled to RP that way, so I feel the need to point it out.

Their magic is borne to them, but rather than saying they randomly develop powers they have no control over, it's more accurate to say that their magic is like an extra muscle that they learn to use and flex - and early on in their discovery, they may accidentally blow themselves or someone else up, just like when you first learn to walk and you've never used your legs that way before you might fall on your face.
My bad then, I guess I head cannoned that way back when I first started playing. The whole "Sorcerers can train themselves to cast whatever they want" just feels wrong to me.

That said, this is still learning NEW spells in new slots, I am 90% sure there is no rule for removing/replacing spells from the spell list, as I remember having to ask a DM permission to "Upgrade" a spell to a higher level version to free up a slot I had filled. (Drop Minor Image, Take Major Image, and then take something else where Minor Image had been).

I am not against the removal of spells in itself, there are numerous reasons a player may want or even need to do it on occasion, but it really should be something rare. Maybe it could even be something that is put into the game in some way? An NPC that offers a way to realign your connection to the Weave if you can acquire a list of hard to acquire items? Probably items that will only spawn into the game when you start the quest to avoid players stockpiling the items.

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Re: Sorcerer spell adjustment

Post by DangerDolphin » Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:29 pm

I don't play a Sorc (Or Bard) but definitely agree that it seems unfair to change spells under their feet and then not let them swap to others.

As long it isn't something they do frequently, (I.e. max once an RL month) I think it should be allowed for them to swap spells. Ultimately they won't be changing many of their spells anyway, as their spell focus feats will be locked in already.

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Re: Sorcerer spell adjustment

Post by AstralUniverse » Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:05 am

Hinty wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:20 pm
Giving Sorcerers the ability to change at any time, just in case a change is made is not a solution to that issue. Its giving a child all the cookies they want because one day their blood sugar might get a bit low.
I dont think anyone in this thread is suggesting that. Up until now you had to drop a level to do that. I'm suggesting some mechanic to replace that, which will allow replacement of spells every once in a (long) while. Perhaps a cooldown of 1 in game year or something.
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Re: Sorcerer spell adjustment

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:37 am

Hinty wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:21 pm

My bad then, I guess I head cannoned that way back when I first started playing. The whole "Sorcerers can train themselves to cast whatever they want" just feels wrong to me.

That said, this is still learning NEW spells in new slots, I am 90% sure there is no rule for removing/replacing spells from the spell list, as I remember having to ask a DM permission to "Upgrade" a spell to a higher level version to free up a slot I had filled. (Drop Minor Image, Take Major Image, and then take something else where Minor Image had been).

I am not against the removal of spells in itself, there are numerous reasons a player may want or even need to do it on occasion, but it really should be something rare. Maybe it could even be something that is put into the game in some way? An NPC that offers a way to realign your connection to the Weave if you can acquire a list of hard to acquire items? Probably items that will only spawn into the game when you start the quest to avoid players stockpiling the items.
Hey! No worries, fwiw I still learn new things all the time all these years later, too. I didn't notice the bit about sorcerers technically being able to learn spells not on their class list until this past week, actually, which was mind-blowing for me. It ultimately falls up to DM permission like all things but it's doable according to the text.

Sorcerers do normally get to swap spells at every even level starting at 4th level, but there are restrictions- the spell swapped has to be at least two levels lower than the highest level spell they can cast, and it has to be a spell of a similar level. So you couldn't drop minor image for major image (without DM permission, which you got), but you could swap fireball for haste or lightning bolt or slow. IIRC, NWN forces you to maintain this level parity when you swap spells, but it doesn't restrict you from changing 8th or 9th level spells - so it's almost perfect.

As for your idea, I don't think it's a bad idea to have an NPC like that for level 30 sorcerers. Maybe turn it into some kind of gold sink.

I don't agree with the notion that just because they hit 30 they should stop being able to learn new magic- in a "perfect" world where mechanical balance wasn't a concern, the character could keep advancing levels, and would still be able to swap some spells every two levels. Allowing the character to continue doing that thing without actually going higher level doesn't seem like such a stretch to me so long as there's some measurable effort involved - which is why I like your quest idea.
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