Racial Stats, Gifts, and ECL

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a shrouded figure
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Racial Stats, Gifts, and ECL

Post by a shrouded figure » Tue Feb 18, 2020 3:33 pm

Just my 10 cents on the subject, but generally these seem a little odd. I really enjoy that there are different races available on Arelith. Some of which have me very excited about re-rolling characters for the chance of a greater or major award. However, it appears that 90% of these races are mechanically inferior to anything already available due to a combination of crippling penalty stats, high ECL, and that natural availability of gifts to standard characters.

Considering almost every race (with gifts) can start at a +4 statistic for ECL +2, it feels a little ridiculous that -2 races (ogre for instance) are also an ECL+2. Am I missing some hidden (true) mechanical advantage to support the ECL penalty?

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Re: Racial Stats, Gifts, and ECL

Post by Shiki » Tue Feb 18, 2020 3:56 pm

ECL only makes experience come slightly slower from kills, slowing levelling across the board, but mainly in epics.

Most gift races are in fact EXTREMELY powerful at some specific class, or at several. There is often an intended combo of class/race that the bonuses and negatives were intentionally tailored to.

a shrouded figure
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Re: Racial Stats, Gifts, and ECL

Post by a shrouded figure » Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:11 pm

Oh, sorry I mean ECL as a penalty being the inability to take major gifts. The slower leveling is annoying, but it has no mechanical consequence.

I guess I just feel like in addition to sacrificing a character (often a natural end), you’re also sacrificing mechanical strength to use your “reward”.

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Re: Racial Stats, Gifts, and ECL

Post by Shiki » Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:18 pm

Most award races have significant mechanical advantages unique to them and so either get unique gifts to their race or are locked out of further gifts so they can't double dip on stats. Ogres, for instance, can pick +4 strength, and can't then also pick +2 strength gift as well and end up with +6 over the normal max you can start with.

a shrouded figure
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Re: Racial Stats, Gifts, and ECL

Post by a shrouded figure » Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:45 pm

I guess my point is that ogres are TERRIBLE, lol. -4 intelligence with no access to a gift to correct it is just crippling when taken into the context of Arelith and the ridiculous importance that intelligence has.

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Re: Racial Stats, Gifts, and ECL

Post by DangerDolphin » Tue Feb 18, 2020 5:03 pm

Tiefling and Aasimar are pretty broken right now as they get +2 to 2 stats, then they get to take 2 +2 gifts on top of that (please correct me if I'm wrong)

This seems bizarre when compared to Drow who get bonus status/SR but then aren't allowed gifts as a result.

Typically stat exchanges are favourable because you can just play a class that doesn't care about the penalised stat, and therefore is much stronger for it.

Agree that intelligence is a tough one though, probably this is due to the high importance Arelith puts on skills. Splitting skills into auxiliary / combat could help with this.

Another way would be to group social skills under base CHA instead, so bluff/persuade/perform/intimidate skill points come partially from CHA modifier instead of INT modifier.

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Re: Racial Stats, Gifts, and ECL

Post by Algol » Tue Feb 18, 2020 5:29 pm

afaik you can make a drow tiefling

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Re: Racial Stats, Gifts, and ECL

Post by Archnon » Tue Feb 18, 2020 9:14 pm

So this question has come up a lot and I am sure the Dev/Admin teams are aware of it. For example, see:

viewtopic.php?f=37&t=25884&hilit=ECL
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=24780
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=25954&hilit=Svirf

So out front, obvioussly I would like to see more people playing svirfs and I think the way the class is structured, it makes it very unlikely. There seem to be two problems.

1.) Imbalance (see viewtopic.php?f=37&t=25884&hilit=ECL). Some races are flat out better, like the Drow. Others are at best on par with a base race +2 gifts and some are flat out worse. The worse races just don't get played as frequently and limit racial RP. Now, granted we don't want a whole army of power svirfs running around but a few more couldn't hurt.

The other problem:

2.) Pidgeon holing. Basically, the stats are set up so that races can be really good at a handful of classes and really terrible at everything else. Drow, with their bonuses and special gifts can range the full gambit. However the -2 str, -4 cha, +2 wis, +2 dex makes svirfs good for, well monk or ranger and certainly a dex build (starting with 6 strength is a buzz kill).

I think a lot of suggestions have come out. The big one being offering more racial based gifts that let you realign stats slightly. I think overall the ecl + gifts system just needs revisited though. So much has been added that the balance has been tipped askew heavily. The base races are, more often than not, a flat out better investment as you get +6/-2 stats after gifts and don't get any stats that are totally tanked. The exception is that some of the newest races tend to be equally powerful Some of the racial bonus feats are nice (power attack, use poison (f poisons were worthwhile), toughness, WF, rapid reload). However, the invisibility spell is pretty worthless given the structure of AI in combat (they follow you :P). The 32 SR seems to really matter in PVE, but isn't worth much in pvp as it can be breached.

Overall I think the team is aware of this but it is currently back burnered to new content and new races. Not to mention a major overhaul will ruffle a number of feathers and result in a call for new gifts for any races whose ecl is lowered. In the end, avoid powergaming, bite the bullet and play the race you want to RP, whether or not it puts you at a disadvantage. Bring on the Svirfneblin Bards!

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Re: Racial Stats, Gifts, and ECL

Post by Chosen Son » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:25 pm

Whenever I consider making a drow character in the underdark, I have a hard time justifying it over an outcast human, which gets a an extra feat, and the ability to pick its two stat gifts, as well as not have to spend its minor gift fixing stats somehow. Depending on build, the outcast human will be slightly better, to considerably better, with the exception maybe of assassin.

Even more of a joke is that a race reputed for its wizards and blademasters find themselves mechanically weaker then their surface elven brethren.

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Re: Racial Stats, Gifts, and ECL

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:13 am

Upon creation, all characters pick one of four stat arrays.

Do away with gifts involving stats and have a conversation in the starting area where you distribute your array to your stats.

Elite: 20, 16, 14, 14, 10, 8 (+2 ECL, may select one minor gift)
Heroic: 20, 14, 14, 10, 10, 8 (+1 ECL, may select another major and minor gift)
Standard: 18, 14, 14, 10, 10, 8 (+0 ECL, may select any three gifts)
Humble: 16, 14, 12, 10, 8, 6 (-2 ECL, may select any two gifts)

Racial opportunity equality achieved... If you really want that sort of thing in your high fantasy. I tend to think of the racial mechanical biases as an observable justification IC for canon stereotypes, however, and I would worry that long-term you might see more of a progressive push for modern rights IC that the module isn't meant for as a result.

(Yes, there are more than 30 points in my arrays- it's to make up for the lack of flexibility in stat generation.)
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Re: Racial Stats, Gifts, and ECL

Post by Wrips » Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:24 am

DangerDolphin wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 5:03 pm
Tiefling and Aasimar are pretty broken right now as they get +2 to 2 stats, then they get to take 2 +2 gifts on top of that (please correct me if I'm wrong)
Tiefling and Aasimar can only take one gift in addition to their bloodline selection.

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Re: Racial Stats, Gifts, and ECL

Post by Void » Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:32 am

a shrouded figure wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 3:33 pm
Just my 10 cents on the subject, but generally these seem a little odd. I really enjoy that there are different races available on Arelith. Some of which have me very excited about re-rolling characters for the chance of a greater or major award. However, it appears that 90% of these races are mechanically inferior to anything already available due to a combination of crippling penalty stats, high ECL, and that natural availability of gifts to standard characters.

Considering almost every race (with gifts) can start at a +4 statistic for ECL +2, it feels a little ridiculous that -2 races (ogre for instance) are also an ECL+2. Am I missing some hidden (true) mechanical advantage to support the ECL penalty?
An ogre starts with +8 bonus to stats. +6 str and +2 con.
While penalties to int/cha look scary they don't really matter, as you work around them and build something that relies on OTHER abilities. It is not about the sum of adjustments, but about maximum bonuses.
In case of an ogre, you'll get an incredibly powerful melee combatant.
DangerDolphin wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 5:03 pm
Tiefling and Aasimar are pretty broken right now as they get +2 to 2 stats, then they get to take 2 +2 gifts on top of that (please correct me if I'm wrong)
The problem with tieflings is that there is no traditional 3.5 tiefling wariant which gets -2 cha, +2 dex and +2 int. It seems they're inspired by pathfinder bloodlines.

3.5 aasimar, by the way, was an odd race, because it only had positive adjustments to stats. +2 cha and +2 wis. That made them good paladins, clerics and excellent smiters.
Archnon wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 9:14 pm
1.) Imbalance (see viewtopic.php?f=37&t=25884&hilit=ECL). Some races are flat out better,
D&D is not balanced. Some races are flat out stronger, more dexterious or anything. The idea is to work around the limitations. You don't get an equal opportunity for everybody here.

In case of Drow, the biggest problem is their lore, which makes them "not for everybody".
Another forum ban, here we go again.

a shrouded figure
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Re: Racial Stats, Gifts, and ECL

Post by a shrouded figure » Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:35 am

NegInfinity wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:32 am
An ogre starts with +8 bonus to stats. +6 str and +2 con.
While penalties to int/cha look scary they don't really matter, as you work around them and build something that relies on OTHER abilities. It is not about the sum of adjustments, but about maximum bonuses.
In case of an ogre, you'll get an incredibly powerful melee combatant.
While I can agree that the +6 str +2 con looks great for a melee fighter, it’s actually crippled by the intelligence penalty. Add the charisma penalty, AND the dex penalty... yikes. There’s no optimized build using the ogre race. Any build using ogre would be significantly stronger as a human. I’ve been playing with it a LOT and unfortunately it’s just a garbage race. This is my complaint with the ECL compared to the various races.

I love love the idea of playing an ogre, I would ABSOLUTELY roll one if I receive the award for it- but I’d do so knowing that my character will be unable to support its role play mechanically. It’s a little bit silly being a big bad ogre when any cookie cutter build would role you with ease. The only “viable” options would be to lean on a Mechanically powerful class, say sorcerer, and even then you’re a sub optimal sorcerer.

Just seems weird to tie an increased effective character level (signifying that your toon is mechanically 2 levels higher) to a character that is arguably mechanically weaker than a NON gifted human.

Again, the role play is a dream and I hope I get the chance, but the ECL makes no sense to me.

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Re: Racial Stats, Gifts, and ECL

Post by Biolab00 » Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:01 am

a shrouded figure wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:35 am
NegInfinity wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:32 am
An ogre starts with +8 bonus to stats. +6 str and +2 con.
While penalties to int/cha look scary they don't really matter, as you work around them and build something that relies on OTHER abilities. It is not about the sum of adjustments, but about maximum bonuses.
In case of an ogre, you'll get an incredibly powerful melee combatant.
While I can agree that the +6 str +2 con looks great for a melee fighter, it’s actually crippled by the intelligence penalty. Add the charisma penalty, AND the dex penalty... yikes. There’s no optimized build using the ogre race. Any build using ogre would be significantly stronger as a human. I’ve been playing with it a LOT and unfortunately it’s just a garbage race. This is my complaint with the ECL compared to the various races.

I love love the idea of playing an ogre, I would ABSOLUTELY roll one if I receive the award for it- but I’d do so knowing that my character will be unable to support its role play mechanically. It’s a little bit silly being a big bad ogre when any cookie cutter build would role you with ease. The only “viable” options would be to lean on a Mechanically powerful class, say sorcerer, and even then you’re a sub optimal sorcerer.

Just seems weird to tie an increased effective character level (signifying that your toon is mechanically 2 levels higher) to a character that is arguably mechanically weaker than a NON gifted human.

Again, the role play is a dream and I hope I get the chance, but the ECL makes no sense to me.
Ogre are actually really horribly powerful.
Ok, the minus 4 intel is the only problem so far.
Now, Ogre stats as below -

+6 STR, -2 DEX, +2 CON, -4 INT, -4 CHA
Darkvision
5% Physical Immunity
+2 Armor bonus (Other)
-4 Hide

In RP sense, ogres are plain stupid. There's never a smart Ogre even when we watch anime or any cartoon. Ogre is always portray as stupid and just plain stupid. There is never an Ogre wizard but Ogre Warlock/Shaman ( Usually portray in the shows that i watched ) ( uses charisma and there's a corresponding gift as well ).

For a Barbarian build, +6 strength gives you free 3 AB [ in comparison to +2 Strength ], you have 2 more AB
The -2 Dex is negated by the free +2 Armour bonus(Other) and not to mention the many other pots and whats'not can easily boost even 6dex to 18dex easily ( If you're aiming for the DR chain mail ) hence, you actually will have higher AC in actual fact.

And there's 5% Physical Immunity which stacks with Barbarian.
The only downside is it comes with less skill to use. However, if you begin with barbarian and you keep your Int at 10 points, you will actually have 4 skill set which you can possibly invest in, usually, Discipline, Tumble, SpellCraft, UMD. Of course, there's also many other options.
Not to mention that because Ogre is huge size, you get to wield Greatsword with 1 hand and that's a bonus 1d6 damage compared to other weapon or the Heavy Flail with the Extra piercing damage which is an extra 2d6 in this sense. Of course, you will lose the bonus strength dmg but gives better armour. Otherwise, you may forgo shield and go full offensive.
Point to note is that Ogre can definitely hit 42 strength or higher(not recommended though, personal opinion) and that gives you 16 + 8(Even Dmg) bonus.

I'm just stating my fact because i really want to do an Ogre Barbarian but i don't have the 5% T_T

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Re: Racial Stats, Gifts, and ECL

Post by Void » Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:12 am

a shrouded figure wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:35 am
While I can agree that the +6 str +2 con looks great for a melee fighter, it’s actually crippled by the intelligence penalty. Add the charisma penalty, AND the dex penalty... yikes. There’s no optimized build using the ogre race. Any build using ogre would be significantly stronger as a human. I’ve been playing with it a LOT and unfortunately it’s just a garbage race. This is my complaint with the ECL compared to the various races.
It sounds like you want to make a weapon master out of the ogre.
The default option for ogre would be epic damage reduction barbarian or something similar. Due to con and strength bonuses.
Charisma/int? This is not the kind of race.

Your +6 str allows you to use power attack straight off the bat for extra damage, and hit as well as a human fighter would without power attack. Extre bonus translates into extra damage, and large size should give you bonuses to knockdown. The bonuses allow you boost constitution AND still retain high strength. A human would have lesser stats. Then there's -twohand. Then there's bonus to chance to hit due to greater strength. To avoid criticals from ogre an opponent would need 5 more AC. You'll also have much higher carrying capacity.

As for your single skill point, you could dump it into discipline.

Ogre need no smart! Ogre stronk! Be barbarian. Be stronk. Be ogre!

It is not a race that is clever. It is race that does SMASH and then things go SPLAT. The stats reflect that.
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Re: Racial Stats, Gifts, and ECL

Post by Biolab00 » Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:24 am

Ogre need no smart! Ogre stronk! Be barbarian. Be stronk. Be ogre!

It is not a race that is clever. It is race that does SMASH and then things go SPLAT. The stats reflect that.
[/quote]

God, you totally made my day. Man, loves you so much. SPLAT !

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Re: Racial Stats, Gifts, and ECL

Post by AstralUniverse » Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:49 am

The idea is to lock out some builds that would be considered too strong on some subraces. The plane touched subraces have many options and would unlock really powerful build (say, a monk with both epic dodge AND improved ki +5, or divine monks, or divine barbarians with little to no sacrifice in terms of str) so penalties were put specifically to lock out such options.
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Re: Racial Stats, Gifts, and ECL

Post by a shrouded figure » Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:08 pm

I wasn’t looking at an ogre for weapon master specifically. I was looking at general ogre stats vs ECL.

I don’t know if -2 total stats is a good trade for 5% immunity, large size, and +2 AC.

For the barbarian argument I present to you the Gnoll race. +2 str (four lower than ogre sure), +2 con (same), 5% immunity (same), power attack(free), toughness (free), -2 int (two higher than ogre making expertise easily achievable) oh yah... ECL +1, welcome to a major gift.

Skills... SKILLS!! Barbarians “need” Disc, Heal, Lore, Tumble, Intimidate, enjoy that -4 int.

Like I said in my earlier post, it’s not that you can’t creat a suboptimal build using other races- the goal here wasn’t really to compare bad builds. I just really don’t think the ECL is fairly representative of the mechanical racial strength and could use some balancing (multiple races have this issue).
Last edited by a shrouded figure on Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Racial Stats, Gifts, and ECL

Post by cowboy » Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:17 pm

I do not inherently mind that some races are devised to fit their racial stereotypes and limits. Ogres, Minotaurs, and the like do not start with player classes in PnP. You have monster levels and THEN your special classes most of the time.

But as it stands ogres are a very weak race that are cycled into the 5% category. You can make them work but you can hardly make them acheive anything in their racial preference without basically becoming a worse human statwise.

I think the ogre int penalty should be let up OR their con / str buffed further. (In PnP they receive many penalties but their bonuses make up for that. An ogre genius is very unlikely but the are excellent brutes.)
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Re: Racial Stats, Gifts, and ECL

Post by Void » Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:58 pm

a shrouded figure wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:08 pm
I wasn’t looking at an ogre for weapon master specifically. I was looking at general ogre stats vs ECL.
Like I said, it is not about total, but about maximum bonus stats provide.
The ogre could have cha -1000000000 and that wouldn't reduce its mechanical power in any way. The approach where ECL is compared to total sum of adjustments is incorrect.

You're trying to build ogre like you would a human. This is not really going to work. You need a different strategy, where you wouldn't overly rely on skillpoints. Besides, you can raise int by a few points, and get two skill points instead of one.

Another possibilities include ogre monk and ogre cleric, because ogres do not have wisdom penalty. You could also try to make something like zen archery axe thrower ranger, because thrown axes are mighty and benefit from ogre's strength modifier.

Think outside the box, basically, instead of trying to make a skillmonkey.
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Re: Racial Stats, Gifts, and ECL

Post by a shrouded figure » Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:55 pm

NegInfinity wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:58 pm
Think outside the box, basically, instead of trying to make a skillmonkey.
Again, I’ll re-iterate that I wasn’t trying to get into a build argument. Sorry for that, it just comes as an easy example to depict my concerns. I also only brought up ogres as one of MANY issues with gifts and ECL. The Svirfneblin argument has been made many times as well.

The unfortunate truth that I keep coming back to, is that the non statistical bonuses of some races do NOT make up for the statistical penalties when added to an increased ECL and the impact that has on gifts.

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Re: Racial Stats, Gifts, and ECL

Post by Void » Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:16 pm

a shrouded figure wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:55 pm
NegInfinity wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:58 pm
Think outside the box, basically, instead of trying to make a skillmonkey.
Again, I’ll re-iterate that I wasn’t trying to get into a build argument. Sorry for that, it just comes as an easy example to depict my concerns. I also only brought up ogres as one of MANY issues with gifts and ECL. The Svirfneblin argument has been made many times as well.

The unfortunate truth that I keep coming back to, is that the non statistical bonuses of some races do NOT make up for the statistical penalties when added to an increased ECL and the impact that has on gifts.
And why should they make up for penalties? D&D is not balanced and trying to balance it is a wasted effort.
Like I said, the idea is to take what you have (racial stats), and work with that.

It is also a good idea to take into account that in case of ogre, for example, part of the package is that you get to be an ogre. Which is something most players cannot do, due to it being a reward race.

You decide for yourself if that's what you want or not. If mechanical power is more important, sure, roll a human. But you won't be an ogre if you do that. :lol:
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a shrouded figure
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Re: Racial Stats, Gifts, and ECL

Post by a shrouded figure » Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:25 pm

Is effective character level not literally a balancing feature? And maybe that’s something I am misunderstanding, but it appeared to me that the intention of ECL was to balance some mechanical benefit gained by choosing a specific race.

Playing an ogre would still be awesome, 100% agreed!

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Re: Racial Stats, Gifts, and ECL

Post by Void » Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:01 pm

a shrouded figure wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:25 pm
Is effective character level not literally a balancing feature? And maybe that’s something I am misunderstanding, but it appeared to me that the intention of ECL was to balance some mechanical benefit gained by choosing a specific race.

Playing an ogre would still be awesome, 100% agreed!
It is more of a "deterrent feature" and it is imperfect. As in "do you want to put up with those penalties? If so, go ahead and have this bonus"

ECL was introduced in 3.5 to indicate that "some races are more powerful", but in practice it crippled them. ECL+1 and +2 originally meant that you need more xp to level up, which also implied that every tiefling/aasimar (ECL+1) was brain damaged from birth, and every drow severely so, as they were unable to learn efficiently. It also meant that a tiefling would need 3000xp to get to level 2, and a drow would need 6000xp for level 2 and a swirf would need 10k. Coupled with multiclass penalty it could make experience miserable.

In arelith this mechanic does not exist, and In context of arelith it only means that to get decent combat xp you need to "punch about your weight" and at level 3 fight enemies designed for level 5 or you get reduced combat xp. It doesn't have a huge impact here.

Sigil (nwn2 pw) had it much worse. Sigil races could go up to +10 ECL, and it meant in some cases that you'd need to fight enemies designed for level 20 with stats of level 10 but some huge racial bonuses.
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Re: Racial Stats, Gifts, and ECL

Post by CptJonas » Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:07 pm

All that rant about ogre...I find out only one solution how to play ogre...and that was STR ranger...but here is one thing what actualy ducked me...ogre actualy doesnt get benefits of being big statue...they only get option to use twohanded in one hand...so no dualwielding medium weapons for ogre...which is true letdown for me...

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