Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?

An area to facilitate free-form feedback on systems (in-game or out) related to Arelith.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Active DMs, Contributors

User avatar
DangerDolphin
Posts: 505
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:10 am

Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?

Post by DangerDolphin » Tue Feb 18, 2020 5:30 pm

RIght now, the best way to get an award race is to grind to certain key levels and delete the character. This tends to promote throwaway characters and grinding XP.

There is nothing wrong with people who enjoy grinding and making optimised characters, of course, but it seems odd to disproportionately reward them over someone with a weak RP build who spends all their time RPing, on an RP server.

Should awards perhaps come from something else, such as a slow build up of points per tick, in the same way that RP XP flows in? This already has built in afk detection, so would reward those who prefer to stand around RPing equally with those out adventuring.

Anomandaris
Posts: 436
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:56 am

Re: Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?

Post by Anomandaris » Tue Feb 18, 2020 6:13 pm

It's an interesting idea. I've never earned a reward besides minor because I can't be bothered. This change would likely drastically increase my changes of ever getting anything fun. That said, "time" doesn't mean quality RP or even active play. This could lead to a bunch of ppl farming rewards by sitting in their quarters. Then the DM's would have to police people being afk?

Cool idea in theory, but in practice it seems to cause other problems in my opinion.

User avatar
R0GUE
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 423
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:10 pm
Location: Washington, DC
Contact:

Re: Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?

Post by R0GUE » Tue Feb 18, 2020 6:18 pm

Jordenk wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 6:13 pm
It's an interesting idea. I've never earned a reward besides minor because I can't be bothered. This change would likely drastically increase my changes of ever getting anything fun. That said, "time" doesn't mean quality RP or even active play. This could lead to a bunch of ppl farming rewards by sitting in their quarters. Then the DM's would have to police people being afk?

Cool idea in theory, but in practice it seems to cause other problems in my opinion.
How cool would it be if the server could track how often your character spoke and was heard by someone, and then how often there was a response. Then you could slowly fill up an RP XP meter. It would have to be something where you couldn't just blabber around while you are all alone. Like I said, like if you only get RP XP when you say something, and someone says something back to you.

Not sure if this is at all feasible. Just brainstorming.

Orian_666
Posts: 781
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2015 6:29 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?

Post by Orian_666 » Tue Feb 18, 2020 6:31 pm

Jordenk wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 6:13 pm
It's an interesting idea. I've never earned a reward besides minor because I can't be bothered. This change would likely drastically increase my changes of ever getting anything fun. That said, "time" doesn't mean quality RP or even active play. This could lead to a bunch of ppl farming rewards by sitting in their quarters. Then the DM's would have to police people being afk?

Cool idea in theory, but in practice it seems to cause other problems in my opinion.
DMs already track people doing this when trying to farm the XP per tick, it'd likely add nothing new to their work load.

All in all i'm hugely in favor of something like this, i've always been of the opinion that the current reward system, although hard to perfect, is essentially flawed; In that the best way to get a "reward" on an RP server.. is to avoid RP entirely and just power level.

JustMonika
Posts: 274
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:38 pm

Re: Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?

Post by JustMonika » Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:19 pm

I have advocated this several times already, and am very passionate about this subject.

The common consenus is that Arelith is a high quality high standard RP server, where our expectation is to create a living breathing world.This is supported by us taking the time to impliment the commoner class, a class which specifically gains nothing from adventuring.

Goodluck playing enough commoners to get a 5%!

The 5% award is a holdover from previous administrations where the server seemed to be more geared towards an 'adventurer' server, where 'social' RP was discouraged, and the emphasis was getting out there and dungeoncrawling.

If Arelith is to switch it's focus to good roleplay, then that should be rewarded, not being able to play Gift of Humility goblins and circle grind.

Why not impliment something like an activity time reward as suggested?

And to avoid a build up of 5% races, now we've removed unique rewards, simply limit everyone to one major per CD key at any one time? So you have to roll your previous before you can play your next?

Temporarily back to Arelith and currently Lilliana Snowfire.

If you have unfinished business with Ultrianan, let me know! Arabella has been rolled.


User avatar
Zavandar
Posts: 785
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2016 2:12 am

Re: Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?

Post by Zavandar » Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:31 pm

I think the current model is fine

I say this as someone that had a 5% and rolled it

Limiting one per CD key after just getting a quota filled will just mean everyone eventually has one
Intelligence is too important

JustMonika
Posts: 274
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:38 pm

Re: Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?

Post by JustMonika » Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:36 pm

Zavandar wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:31 pm
I think the current model is fine

I say this as someone that had a 5% and rolled it

Limiting one per CD key after just getting a quota filled will just mean everyone eventually has one
As opposed to the current model where some people half a dozen and some have none?

Temporarily back to Arelith and currently Lilliana Snowfire.

If you have unfinished business with Ultrianan, let me know! Arabella has been rolled.


a shrouded figure
Posts: 402
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:18 am

Re: Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?

Post by a shrouded figure » Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:39 pm

I rather like the idea of changing the current system. As someone interested in making a 5% character, the thought of grinding level 26’s until I get lucky is rather depressing. Assuming nothing changes, my best possibility is to start humility grinding... to me that’s so against the spirit of the server. It feels like some level of “once per CD key, with a 20 RPR or higher, and a good application you can unlock a 5% reward”. Sadly this is more manual work for the already very busy dev team- but it would give them some manual control over the server population to maintain the 5% feel. We don’t need 200 of the same power gamed race running around, lol.

User avatar
Zavandar
Posts: 785
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2016 2:12 am

Re: Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?

Post by Zavandar » Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:51 pm

people not having 5%'s is okay

kind of the point actually
Intelligence is too important

AstralUniverse
Posts: 2723
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:54 pm

Re: Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?

Post by AstralUniverse » Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:59 pm

As someone who never got major, got greater once, and got very little to do with normal as I dont play UD, I think awards are in a good place. Its hard to say, and I almost want to say the rare races are too common as is, but maybe it's just the amount of players that increased in general. Leveling to 26 is easier than ever, too.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


a shrouded figure
Posts: 402
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:18 am

Re: Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?

Post by a shrouded figure » Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:10 pm

I would 100% agree that “rare” races are entirely too common, and I would argue that a significant amount of that is due to the current system of powerleveling to 26, rinse, repeat until you get lucky.

I don’t personally have a problem with that per say, to each their own, but it really does lock the greater rewards behind :

A.) random luck (casually made a toon? Took a year to get to 30, played for a long while had a great story, sacrifice- oops minor reward! Lol)

B.) power gaming the crap out of a mechanical system, sacrifice a 26 every week until you get a 5%

Aelryn Bloodmoon
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 2028
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 4:57 pm

Re: Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:12 pm

In a perfect world, yes.

However, to draw a comparison as to why I think our world isn't perfect for this suggestion, I point you to RPR, and the large number of players who never ever make it past 20 (and some who wait literal years to get that far).

We ameliorated this problem by placing RPR nomination powers into the hands of the players who are the cream of the crop - and yet, there is still the occasional sentiment of envy over people who have 30 and 40, as if it's someone's fault there is a limited staff of DM volunteers compared to the literal thousands of players - a limited staff who rotates and who may not necessarily be exposed to the same people as the previous rotation due to time zones.

Just for a moment, try to imagine a server environment where players nominated by dms could nominate other players for 5% awards, and tell me you don't see the flaming infernos of salt hell on the wall. I think you get the same if it's DM only, and that you manage to burn out entire DM teams (or one DM per rotation very quickly) on top of it. It's unfortunate, but seems inevitable.

For conversational relevance on my position, I am a 20RPR player, and have never had an award. I'm not terribly bothered by it- maybe I would be if I desperately wanted to execute a particular story concept gated by a 5%, but the only concept I'm actually sad I missed out on playing was a weavemaster.
Bane's tyranny is known throughout the continent, and his is the image most seen as the face of evil.
-Faiths and Pantheons (c)2002

Wuthering
Posts: 260
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:19 pm

Re: Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?

Post by Wuthering » Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:14 pm

JustMonika wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:19 pm
The 5% award is a holdover from previous administrations where the server seemed to be more geared towards an 'adventurer' server, where 'social' RP was discouraged, and the emphasis was getting out there and dungeoncrawling.
No idea what time you're talking about. The 5% roll came from mid to late 2000s when the RP culture and rules were far stricter than today. Also a lot more elitist in a lot of ways and I'm not saying the good old days were better but it was a time where standards were expected. DMs policed players a lot more carefully than today and even a 20 RPR was more difficult to get and a lot easier to lose.

Originally the 5% was done offscreen by the then- server owner, then it got automated, then slowly built upon with tiers. But keep in mind even a minor was more of a chore to get because there were no writs (and no adventuring XP) and XP was all from grinding and RPR.

I think the system means well and kind of works, not crazy about encouraging humility druids to run to 26 and things like that but if you want to waste your life like that I guess I just shrug. My main complaint is actually that characters are too disposable on Arelith; bored epics is a huge problem but so is rapid turnover to the point where it's difficult to keep momentum going because characters don't stick around.

User avatar
MissEvelyn
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 1584
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2015 8:43 pm

Re: Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?

Post by MissEvelyn » Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:19 pm

I love this post and I agree. Tying special race awards to grinding is not good for the server.
There seem to be 2 points being made here:

• It's too easy. And it is, because grinding is not hard. It's tedious and time-consuming, but that does not equal hard.
• It promotes a grindy MMO behavior over Roleplay.

No one would argue that grinding is hard. It's not that it's hard, it's that it takes time, and some of us can't spare more than a few hours a week to play on the server. And we'd rather not spend those few hours circle-grinding. That's not why we're here on Arelith for. So for those people who aren't interested in circle-grinding, the rewards seem far out of reach. And why should it be that way? They aren't worse RPers simply because they don't want to speed run through the levels.

If we moved away from rewards being tied to levels and instead based them on time spent in the game, interactions with others, and so forth, with the right checks and algorithms to protect against abuse in place, I'd venture and say roleplayers would feel far more rewarded for their efforts and dents made in the world that don't involve an XP bar.
And on top of that, it would cease to promote circle-grinding.


godhand-
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 244
Joined: Sat May 14, 2016 1:38 am
Location: Sydney Australia

Re: Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?

Post by godhand- » Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:27 pm

On the flip side of this, talking about humility goblins....

I'm lucky if i get to play more than 1-2 hours per week, however the friends i play arelith with have the time to put in up to 12 hours every week.....

The ability for me to play a -4ECL character, as weak as it may be, enables me to keep up with the people i want to be playing with in these circumstances. And as soon as i'm in a party, my weakness are hidden behind the synergy playing with a group provides.

Useless on my own? Most of the time, yes. But i'd rather be useless on my own than excluded from being able to play with friends due to significant level gaps, and then being useless in the group.
Cortex wrote: Addendum, the immediate above post by godhand is wrong in about every aspect, as were most of his other posts.

User avatar
Ork
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 2488
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 8:30 pm

Re: Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?

Post by Ork » Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:31 pm

5%'s should stay as is. Minor, normal and greater rewards should have multiple avenues for players to earn - the challenge is I don't have a good suggestion on how to do that that won't open the floodgates of abuse or claims of favoritism.

The BIGGEST benefit I can see about our current system is it does not open up our dev team to claims of favoritism, and whatever comes after will need to be similar.

Some of y'all's conspiracy theories are downright harmful.

User avatar
Huschpfusch
Posts: 167
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:20 pm

Re: Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?

Post by Huschpfusch » Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:37 pm

What about an anonymous voting system on anonymously announced character concepts?
The right to put forward a very base character concept could be limited to x concepts/real life time,
with levels of real life depending on RPR level. (e.g. rpr 40 = 1concept/month versus RPR 20 1concept/half-year)
Those who constantly vote for their pals - that behavior could be tracked mechanically.
And also since Arelith community is so big, there most likely be enough neutral people casting votes so the buddypal behavior does not weigh in really.
And most importanly it would be all anonymous so no one really knows anything. Who is playing what character and when is not known.
Also DMs could use this system to probe the community with NPC character concepts.
"Oh look, an unidentified magical wand - let`s just see what it does by randomly using it in battle!"

JustMonika
Posts: 274
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:38 pm

Re: Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?

Post by JustMonika » Tue Feb 18, 2020 9:08 pm

Wuthering wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:14 pm
JustMonika wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:19 pm
The 5% award is a holdover from previous administrations where the server seemed to be more geared towards an 'adventurer' server, where 'social' RP was discouraged, and the emphasis was getting out there and dungeoncrawling.
No idea what time you're talking about. The 5% roll came from mid to late 2000s when the RP culture and rules were far stricter than today. Also a lot more elitist in a lot of ways and I'm not saying the good old days were better but it was a time where standards were expected. DMs policed players a lot more carefully than today and even a 20 RPR was more difficult to get and a lot easier to lose.

Originally the 5% was done offscreen by the then- server owner, then it got automated, then slowly built upon with tiers. But keep in mind even a minor was more of a chore to get because there were no writs (and no adventuring XP) and XP was all from grinding and RPR.

I think the system means well and kind of works, not crazy about encouraging humility druids to run to 26 and things like that but if you want to waste your life like that I guess I just shrug. My main complaint is actually that characters are too disposable on Arelith; bored epics is a huge problem but so is rapid turnover to the point where it's difficult to keep momentum going because characters don't stick around.
This came specifically from conversations with Mithreas and various posts on the old forum, where it was stressed that 'Social' RP was not to be encouraged, and what they wanted were players out there, exploring the world using the dungeons. And not hanging around in tavernes or bedrooms chatting alone.

My understanding based on the current DMs is that standards are no different when it comes to RPR. What has changed are the systems and tools [Like -Recommend] that make it easierfor the DMs to hand out RPR levels.

It was absoultely harder to level in Old Arelith. That's not too relevent though.
And the Automated system has been introduced because it's much less staff work intensive. Our new size does not suit manual requests.
Equally that means the rewards are now worth less, but also have more tiers.

Temporarily back to Arelith and currently Lilliana Snowfire.

If you have unfinished business with Ultrianan, let me know! Arabella has been rolled.


malcolm_mountainslayer
Posts: 1043
Joined: Thu May 16, 2019 5:08 am

Re: Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:09 am

Much more damaging than rewards has been conflict often built around rp 30

There is a staggering number of people (not all or necessarily majority, but enough that I keep encountering it) that feel they can't properly do conflict RP till lvl 30 or close to due to arelith community promoting that you need be able have the mechanics to back up your concept and attach a need to win or at least not auto lose your conflict.

I don't think changing reward system will remove that culture. I also do not think we have better alternatives. I think gating content behind RPR was really unhealthy as RPR had little to do with how welll you could handle the unique concept.

User avatar
Echohawk
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 403
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2016 3:31 am
Location: Sweden

Re: Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?

Post by Echohawk » Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:22 am

I think people covet the 5% super-special-awesome status of being that snowflake character with wings and glowy bits a bit too much.

The system as it currently stands is automatic, meaning we don't have to worry about biases of overseeing DMs/Admins being a factor in who gets what reward. It's intended that characters that have been around for as little or as long as possible can have a chance to unlock something different. Not everyone that gets a 5% does it well either sadly, and that can lead to some rugged roleplay for everyone else to have to navigate around.

Don't build a character banking on getting the 5%, don't do the concept until you have it. Right now 5% is an even less sought after article since you can't do the same unique requests as we did before. (Which has pros and cons! Obviously you can'd do something nearly as unique as the request system, but now you also don't have to wait for possible approval and implementation, as examples.)

Every character has the potential for a fantastic story, with or without wingy/tail/crazy bits. There are a lot of builds out there that do not require those racial additions to be functional. And while it's nice to daydream, it's best to just enjoy the time of now and what you have. And when you're ready for something new then you can give it a shot on the roulette wheel and see what kind of spicy flavors pop out.

I hope there are more rotations for the rewards coming soon, certainly for the lower tiers to give everyone something to look forward to trying out.
Arelith Discord: https://discord.gg/mAm8M3T
Echohawk#0623
Availability - Whenever, Sweden (GMT+1)

Void
Posts: 1600
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:03 pm

Re: Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?

Post by Void » Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:55 am

DangerDolphin wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 5:30 pm
RIght now, the best way to get an award race is to grind to certain key levels and delete the character. This tends to promote throwaway characters and grinding XP.

There is nothing wrong with people who enjoy grinding and making optimised characters, of course, but it seems odd to disproportionately reward them over someone with a weak RP build who spends all their time RPing, on an RP server.

Should awards perhaps come from something else, such as a slow build up of points per tick, in the same way that RP XP flows in? This already has built in afk detection, so would reward those who prefer to stand around RPing equally with those out adventuring.
I don't see a better alternative to current system. Getting to the point where you can get something decent from reward roll is not exactly trivial, and requires time investment. Regardless of what the player has been doing by the time they get there, they will have interacted with many people.

I do not think that running a "weak rp build" is an inherently good thing. You can have a strong RP build, and weak non-RP build. Likewise, it is not a matter of quantity (all the time), but quality. A person you meet once randomly in a dungeon may have a bigger impact than someone who hangs out in every tavern and talks all the time.

Any sort of "old buildup", in my opinion, would encourage advanced form of idling. You may end up having a lot of what I call "campfire roleplay".

I like current system, by the way. It encourages you to kill your character and try something else. I feel that this is a good thing.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

User avatar
Jagel
Posts: 1250
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2014 3:50 pm
Location: Scandinavia

Re: Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?

Post by Jagel » Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:45 am

The current system is not great but much to be preferred over any alternatives offered so far.

The special races are pretty niche, not really worth grinding for (I know people still do it..). Plus DMs can always invite players who play their special snowflake chars in ways that are detrimental to the server environment

JustMonika
Posts: 274
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:38 pm

Re: Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?

Post by JustMonika » Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:43 am

DangerDolphin wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 5:30 pm


Any sort of "old buildup", in my opinion, would encourage advanced form of idling. You may end up having a lot of what I call "campfire roleplay".

I like current system, by the way. It encourages you to kill your character and try something else. I feel that this is a good thing.

Commoners exist to do 'Campfire Roleplay', as a class they literally can't do anything else.

Why should they not be eligable for rewards?

Temporarily back to Arelith and currently Lilliana Snowfire.

If you have unfinished business with Ultrianan, let me know! Arabella has been rolled.


Nitro
Posts: 2800
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:04 pm

Re: Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?

Post by Nitro » Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:16 am

JustMonika wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:43 am
DangerDolphin wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 5:30 pm


Any sort of "old buildup", in my opinion, would encourage advanced form of idling. You may end up having a lot of what I call "campfire roleplay".

I like current system, by the way. It encourages you to kill your character and try something else. I feel that this is a good thing.

Commoners exist to do 'Campfire Roleplay', as a class they literally can't do anything else.

Why should they not be eligable for rewards?
They are, it just takes a really long time.

JustMonika
Posts: 274
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:38 pm

Re: Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?

Post by JustMonika » Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:58 am

Nitro wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:16 am
JustMonika wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:43 am
DangerDolphin wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 5:30 pm


Any sort of "old buildup", in my opinion, would encourage advanced form of idling. You may end up having a lot of what I call "campfire roleplay".

I like current system, by the way. It encourages you to kill your character and try something else. I feel that this is a good thing.

Commoners exist to do 'Campfire Roleplay', as a class they literally can't do anything else.

Why should they not be eligable for rewards?
They are, it just takes a really long time.
So you feel that people playing these classes, classes which exist to support other players, and give life to cities and towns, and create fixtures and gear that you as an adventurer will lose, are less deserving and need to work harder to be eligable for any form of reward?

Temporarily back to Arelith and currently Lilliana Snowfire.

If you have unfinished business with Ultrianan, let me know! Arabella has been rolled.


Locked