Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?
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Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?
There is nothing wrong with people who enjoy grinding and making optimised characters, of course, but it seems odd to disproportionately reward them over someone with a weak RP build who spends all their time RPing, on an RP server.
Should awards perhaps come from something else, such as a slow build up of points per tick, in the same way that RP XP flows in? This already has built in afk detection, so would reward those who prefer to stand around RPing equally with those out adventuring.
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Re: Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?
Cool idea in theory, but in practice it seems to cause other problems in my opinion.
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Re: Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?
How cool would it be if the server could track how often your character spoke and was heard by someone, and then how often there was a response. Then you could slowly fill up an RP XP meter. It would have to be something where you couldn't just blabber around while you are all alone. Like I said, like if you only get RP XP when you say something, and someone says something back to you.Jordenk wrote: ↑Tue Feb 18, 2020 6:13 pmIt's an interesting idea. I've never earned a reward besides minor because I can't be bothered. This change would likely drastically increase my changes of ever getting anything fun. That said, "time" doesn't mean quality RP or even active play. This could lead to a bunch of ppl farming rewards by sitting in their quarters. Then the DM's would have to police people being afk?
Cool idea in theory, but in practice it seems to cause other problems in my opinion.
Not sure if this is at all feasible. Just brainstorming.
Re: Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?
DMs already track people doing this when trying to farm the XP per tick, it'd likely add nothing new to their work load.Jordenk wrote: ↑Tue Feb 18, 2020 6:13 pmIt's an interesting idea. I've never earned a reward besides minor because I can't be bothered. This change would likely drastically increase my changes of ever getting anything fun. That said, "time" doesn't mean quality RP or even active play. This could lead to a bunch of ppl farming rewards by sitting in their quarters. Then the DM's would have to police people being afk?
Cool idea in theory, but in practice it seems to cause other problems in my opinion.
All in all i'm hugely in favor of something like this, i've always been of the opinion that the current reward system, although hard to perfect, is essentially flawed; In that the best way to get a "reward" on an RP server.. is to avoid RP entirely and just power level.
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Re: Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?
The common consenus is that Arelith is a high quality high standard RP server, where our expectation is to create a living breathing world.This is supported by us taking the time to impliment the commoner class, a class which specifically gains nothing from adventuring.
Goodluck playing enough commoners to get a 5%!
The 5% award is a holdover from previous administrations where the server seemed to be more geared towards an 'adventurer' server, where 'social' RP was discouraged, and the emphasis was getting out there and dungeoncrawling.
If Arelith is to switch it's focus to good roleplay, then that should be rewarded, not being able to play Gift of Humility goblins and circle grind.
Why not impliment something like an activity time reward as suggested?
And to avoid a build up of 5% races, now we've removed unique rewards, simply limit everyone to one major per CD key at any one time? So you have to roll your previous before you can play your next?
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Re: Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?
I say this as someone that had a 5% and rolled it
Limiting one per CD key after just getting a quota filled will just mean everyone eventually has one
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Re: Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?
As opposed to the current model where some people half a dozen and some have none?
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Re: Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?
Re: Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?
kind of the point actually
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Re: Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?
Svrtr wrote:I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too
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Re: Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?
I don’t personally have a problem with that per say, to each their own, but it really does lock the greater rewards behind :
A.) random luck (casually made a toon? Took a year to get to 30, played for a long while had a great story, sacrifice- oops minor reward! Lol)
B.) power gaming the crap out of a mechanical system, sacrifice a 26 every week until you get a 5%
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Re: Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?
However, to draw a comparison as to why I think our world isn't perfect for this suggestion, I point you to RPR, and the large number of players who never ever make it past 20 (and some who wait literal years to get that far).
We ameliorated this problem by placing RPR nomination powers into the hands of the players who are the cream of the crop - and yet, there is still the occasional sentiment of envy over people who have 30 and 40, as if it's someone's fault there is a limited staff of DM volunteers compared to the literal thousands of players - a limited staff who rotates and who may not necessarily be exposed to the same people as the previous rotation due to time zones.
Just for a moment, try to imagine a server environment where players nominated by dms could nominate other players for 5% awards, and tell me you don't see the flaming infernos of salt hell on the wall. I think you get the same if it's DM only, and that you manage to burn out entire DM teams (or one DM per rotation very quickly) on top of it. It's unfortunate, but seems inevitable.
For conversational relevance on my position, I am a 20RPR player, and have never had an award. I'm not terribly bothered by it- maybe I would be if I desperately wanted to execute a particular story concept gated by a 5%, but the only concept I'm actually sad I missed out on playing was a weavemaster.
-Faiths and Pantheons (c)2002
Re: Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?
No idea what time you're talking about. The 5% roll came from mid to late 2000s when the RP culture and rules were far stricter than today. Also a lot more elitist in a lot of ways and I'm not saying the good old days were better but it was a time where standards were expected. DMs policed players a lot more carefully than today and even a 20 RPR was more difficult to get and a lot easier to lose.JustMonika wrote: ↑Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:19 pmThe 5% award is a holdover from previous administrations where the server seemed to be more geared towards an 'adventurer' server, where 'social' RP was discouraged, and the emphasis was getting out there and dungeoncrawling.
Originally the 5% was done offscreen by the then- server owner, then it got automated, then slowly built upon with tiers. But keep in mind even a minor was more of a chore to get because there were no writs (and no adventuring XP) and XP was all from grinding and RPR.
I think the system means well and kind of works, not crazy about encouraging humility druids to run to 26 and things like that but if you want to waste your life like that I guess I just shrug. My main complaint is actually that characters are too disposable on Arelith; bored epics is a huge problem but so is rapid turnover to the point where it's difficult to keep momentum going because characters don't stick around.
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Re: Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?
There seem to be 2 points being made here:
• It's too easy. And it is, because grinding is not hard. It's tedious and time-consuming, but that does not equal hard.
• It promotes a grindy MMO behavior over Roleplay.
No one would argue that grinding is hard. It's not that it's hard, it's that it takes time, and some of us can't spare more than a few hours a week to play on the server. And we'd rather not spend those few hours circle-grinding. That's not why we're here on Arelith for. So for those people who aren't interested in circle-grinding, the rewards seem far out of reach. And why should it be that way? They aren't worse RPers simply because they don't want to speed run through the levels.
If we moved away from rewards being tied to levels and instead based them on time spent in the game, interactions with others, and so forth, with the right checks and algorithms to protect against abuse in place, I'd venture and say roleplayers would feel far more rewarded for their efforts and dents made in the world that don't involve an XP bar.
And on top of that, it would cease to promote circle-grinding.
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Re: Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?
I'm lucky if i get to play more than 1-2 hours per week, however the friends i play arelith with have the time to put in up to 12 hours every week.....
The ability for me to play a -4ECL character, as weak as it may be, enables me to keep up with the people i want to be playing with in these circumstances. And as soon as i'm in a party, my weakness are hidden behind the synergy playing with a group provides.
Useless on my own? Most of the time, yes. But i'd rather be useless on my own than excluded from being able to play with friends due to significant level gaps, and then being useless in the group.
Cortex wrote: Addendum, the immediate above post by godhand is wrong in about every aspect, as were most of his other posts.
Re: Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?
The BIGGEST benefit I can see about our current system is it does not open up our dev team to claims of favoritism, and whatever comes after will need to be similar.
Some of y'all's conspiracy theories are downright harmful.
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Re: Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?
The right to put forward a very base character concept could be limited to x concepts/real life time,
with levels of real life depending on RPR level. (e.g. rpr 40 = 1concept/month versus RPR 20 1concept/half-year)
Those who constantly vote for their pals - that behavior could be tracked mechanically.
And also since Arelith community is so big, there most likely be enough neutral people casting votes so the buddypal behavior does not weigh in really.
And most importanly it would be all anonymous so no one really knows anything. Who is playing what character and when is not known.
Also DMs could use this system to probe the community with NPC character concepts.
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Re: Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?
This came specifically from conversations with Mithreas and various posts on the old forum, where it was stressed that 'Social' RP was not to be encouraged, and what they wanted were players out there, exploring the world using the dungeons. And not hanging around in tavernes or bedrooms chatting alone.Wuthering wrote: ↑Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:14 pmNo idea what time you're talking about. The 5% roll came from mid to late 2000s when the RP culture and rules were far stricter than today. Also a lot more elitist in a lot of ways and I'm not saying the good old days were better but it was a time where standards were expected. DMs policed players a lot more carefully than today and even a 20 RPR was more difficult to get and a lot easier to lose.JustMonika wrote: ↑Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:19 pmThe 5% award is a holdover from previous administrations where the server seemed to be more geared towards an 'adventurer' server, where 'social' RP was discouraged, and the emphasis was getting out there and dungeoncrawling.
Originally the 5% was done offscreen by the then- server owner, then it got automated, then slowly built upon with tiers. But keep in mind even a minor was more of a chore to get because there were no writs (and no adventuring XP) and XP was all from grinding and RPR.
I think the system means well and kind of works, not crazy about encouraging humility druids to run to 26 and things like that but if you want to waste your life like that I guess I just shrug. My main complaint is actually that characters are too disposable on Arelith; bored epics is a huge problem but so is rapid turnover to the point where it's difficult to keep momentum going because characters don't stick around.
My understanding based on the current DMs is that standards are no different when it comes to RPR. What has changed are the systems and tools [Like -Recommend] that make it easierfor the DMs to hand out RPR levels.
It was absoultely harder to level in Old Arelith. That's not too relevent though.
And the Automated system has been introduced because it's much less staff work intensive. Our new size does not suit manual requests.
Equally that means the rewards are now worth less, but also have more tiers.
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Re: Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?
There is a staggering number of people (not all or necessarily majority, but enough that I keep encountering it) that feel they can't properly do conflict RP till lvl 30 or close to due to arelith community promoting that you need be able have the mechanics to back up your concept and attach a need to win or at least not auto lose your conflict.
I don't think changing reward system will remove that culture. I also do not think we have better alternatives. I think gating content behind RPR was really unhealthy as RPR had little to do with how welll you could handle the unique concept.
Re: Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?
The system as it currently stands is automatic, meaning we don't have to worry about biases of overseeing DMs/Admins being a factor in who gets what reward. It's intended that characters that have been around for as little or as long as possible can have a chance to unlock something different. Not everyone that gets a 5% does it well either sadly, and that can lead to some rugged roleplay for everyone else to have to navigate around.
Don't build a character banking on getting the 5%, don't do the concept until you have it. Right now 5% is an even less sought after article since you can't do the same unique requests as we did before. (Which has pros and cons! Obviously you can'd do something nearly as unique as the request system, but now you also don't have to wait for possible approval and implementation, as examples.)
Every character has the potential for a fantastic story, with or without wingy/tail/crazy bits. There are a lot of builds out there that do not require those racial additions to be functional. And while it's nice to daydream, it's best to just enjoy the time of now and what you have. And when you're ready for something new then you can give it a shot on the roulette wheel and see what kind of spicy flavors pop out.
I hope there are more rotations for the rewards coming soon, certainly for the lower tiers to give everyone something to look forward to trying out.
Re: Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?
I don't see a better alternative to current system. Getting to the point where you can get something decent from reward roll is not exactly trivial, and requires time investment. Regardless of what the player has been doing by the time they get there, they will have interacted with many people.DangerDolphin wrote: ↑Tue Feb 18, 2020 5:30 pmRIght now, the best way to get an award race is to grind to certain key levels and delete the character. This tends to promote throwaway characters and grinding XP.
There is nothing wrong with people who enjoy grinding and making optimised characters, of course, but it seems odd to disproportionately reward them over someone with a weak RP build who spends all their time RPing, on an RP server.
Should awards perhaps come from something else, such as a slow build up of points per tick, in the same way that RP XP flows in? This already has built in afk detection, so would reward those who prefer to stand around RPing equally with those out adventuring.
I do not think that running a "weak rp build" is an inherently good thing. You can have a strong RP build, and weak non-RP build. Likewise, it is not a matter of quantity (all the time), but quality. A person you meet once randomly in a dungeon may have a bigger impact than someone who hangs out in every tavern and talks all the time.
Any sort of "old buildup", in my opinion, would encourage advanced form of idling. You may end up having a lot of what I call "campfire roleplay".
I like current system, by the way. It encourages you to kill your character and try something else. I feel that this is a good thing.
Re: Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?
The special races are pretty niche, not really worth grinding for (I know people still do it..). Plus DMs can always invite players who play their special snowflake chars in ways that are detrimental to the server environment
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Re: Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?
DangerDolphin wrote: ↑Tue Feb 18, 2020 5:30 pm
Any sort of "old buildup", in my opinion, would encourage advanced form of idling. You may end up having a lot of what I call "campfire roleplay".
I like current system, by the way. It encourages you to kill your character and try something else. I feel that this is a good thing.
Commoners exist to do 'Campfire Roleplay', as a class they literally can't do anything else.
Why should they not be eligable for rewards?
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If you have unfinished business with Ultrianan, let me know! Arabella has been rolled.
Re: Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?
They are, it just takes a really long time.JustMonika wrote: ↑Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:43 amDangerDolphin wrote: ↑Tue Feb 18, 2020 5:30 pm
Any sort of "old buildup", in my opinion, would encourage advanced form of idling. You may end up having a lot of what I call "campfire roleplay".
I like current system, by the way. It encourages you to kill your character and try something else. I feel that this is a good thing.
Commoners exist to do 'Campfire Roleplay', as a class they literally can't do anything else.
Why should they not be eligable for rewards?
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Re: Should we decouple awards from XP/Level?
So you feel that people playing these classes, classes which exist to support other players, and give life to cities and towns, and create fixtures and gear that you as an adventurer will lose, are less deserving and need to work harder to be eligable for any form of reward?Nitro wrote: ↑Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:16 amThey are, it just takes a really long time.JustMonika wrote: ↑Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:43 amDangerDolphin wrote: ↑Tue Feb 18, 2020 5:30 pm
Any sort of "old buildup", in my opinion, would encourage advanced form of idling. You may end up having a lot of what I call "campfire roleplay".
I like current system, by the way. It encourages you to kill your character and try something else. I feel that this is a good thing.
Commoners exist to do 'Campfire Roleplay', as a class they literally can't do anything else.
Why should they not be eligable for rewards?
Temporarily back to Arelith and currently Lilliana Snowfire.
If you have unfinished business with Ultrianan, let me know! Arabella has been rolled.