Subdual - How to make it an Arelith Acceptable Reality

[Shrouded Wanderer]

Please dont bring the "Hardened army veteran" arguement out. Its a fallacy. As a Vet myself I can tell you we know how to inflict non lethal wounds with lethal weapons its not as hard as anyone here makes it out to be.

On top of that, a "Hardened Army Veteran" in the sense of this world is once again, a logical fallacy as even in the PHB a veteran warrior is barely level 10. Even adjusted for the power inflation of Arelith would still be level 15 by comparison.

Now ask somone who has spent their entire lives for 40 years or more how to injure somone with a sword to the point that they are no longer a threat and they can do it. Apply this to magic, where the underlying arguement of any plothole in any story with MAGIC is that "MAGIC DID IT" and your arguement falls apart.


If a subdual system was made the default most players would likely treat it as their characters becoming mortally wounded, knocked down, etc. The vast MINORITY of issues brought up would be considered rulebreaks in any capacity anyway.


EDIT: I should clarify with this statement, Fatal wounding in combat is much more common than flat lethal damage. There are very few places on the human body that would cause some one to die instantly, let alone within 1 to 2 minutes. Couple this with the fact that in lore pretty much everyone is better than humans physiologically in this world and you have a logical answer there.

The morbid reality is that Most people die in combat within an agonizingly long time. Most of the time in shock, but technically "living" in most respects.
And yes. This extends to explosions as well. If you do not believe me you can watch apache guncam footage

[Void]

Please dont bring the "Hardened army veteran" arguement out. Its a fallacy. As a Vet myself I can tell you we know how to inflict non lethal wounds with lethal weapons its not as hard as anyone here makes it out to be.

It is an example.

Use 50 cal non-lethally against a human at range. Or tomahawk missile. Or a live grenade which is primed to blow. Or a flamethrower.

That's the best real world comparison to magic.

Apply this to magic, where the underlying arguement of any plothole in any story with MAGIC is that "MAGIC DID IT" and your arguement falls apart.

It does not though. For non-lethal magical takedown you need to use appropriate tools. They're already there, though. From enchantment spell to bigby spells. A mage trying to capture someone can already use them.

People however, want non-lethal fireballs, as far as I can tell.

[Shrouded Wanderer]

Please dont bring the "Hardened army veteran" arguement out. Its a fallacy. As a Vet myself I can tell you we know how to inflict non lethal wounds with lethal weapons its not as hard as anyone here makes it out to be.

It is an example.

Use 50 cal non-lethally against a human at range. Or tomahawk missile. Or a live grenade which is primed to blow. Or a flamethrower.

That's the best real world comparison to magic.

Apply this to magic, where the underlying arguement of any plothole in any story with MAGIC is that "MAGIC DID IT" and your arguement falls apart.

It does not though. For non-lethal magical takedown you need to use appropriate tools. They're already there, though. From enchantment spell to bigby spells. A mage trying to capture someone can already use them.

People however, want non-lethal fireballs, as far as I can tell.

The only comparison of magic vs. A real world counterpart is a hand grenade, which is lethal to 15 meters. Fatal wounding can occur further out, concussion from being in a room with them is fairly apparent.

There is no magic that is equivalent to a M2 or a tomahawk except greater ruin, hellball, and disintegrate.

Even magic missile is often depicted as a punch. Granted its probably a mike Tyson punch and has lethality.but a tomahawk Can level a city block and a .50cal is primarily used against vehicles. The comparison is an over exaggeration and a false equivilence.

Greater run would be more Akin to a 30MM explosive round exploding nearby. A fireball has never been actually depicted in RAW as a concussive force. Its treated that way but it is, infact pure fire damage which means logically it could either be. An explosive or more likely a flamethrower.

There ARE spells that are written as pure lethal damage. But they are the exception. Not the rule

[Void]

There ARE spells that are written as pure lethal damage. But they are the exception. Not the rule

And the problem I have with subdual magic is that people apparently want THOSE spells to be non-lethal too.
A maximized fireball deals 60 damge to anyone within blast radius. A commoner has d4 dice, so it is up to 15 people worth of damage.

[Shrouded Wanderer]

There ARE spells that are written as pure lethal damage. But they are the exception. Not the rule

And the problem I have with subdual magic is that people apparently want THOSE spells to be non-lethal too.
A maximized fireball deals 60 damge to anyone within blast radius. A commoner has d4 dice, so it is up to 15 people worth of damage.

1. I havent seen anyone argue anywhere for disintegrate or similar spells to be non lethal, and if they have then I disagree with them entirely. Some spells are designed to rend the souls from a victim ala wail of the banshee

2. A commoner does, and will die as NPCs often do. Most of the time they lay on the ground dead much as players in this thread want players to.


3. The amount of damage does not correlate to lethality, there is a very famous quote from the DnD creators saying that HP could be looked at as Luck before a lethal damage is struck, similar to Nathan drake. But damage can be construed as physical hits. In which case we arent talking about commoners anyway. We are talking about full fledged adventurers who, quite regularly are struck with damaging spells and shrugging them off in combat. Therefore its a false equivliency. An adventurer is not a commoner. NPC monsters are not adventurers either, they have no story to tell, which is why we can wade through hundreds of them.

4. Fire damage can cause severe burns and fatal wounding, but once again the target is not disintegrated or turned into a pile of ash, disintegrate in RAW is the only spell that can do that because its specifically designed to.


I'll put it another way. I as somone who has seen combat would be laid out by Mike Tyson. I was not trained for years to take punches on the equivelent of getting struck by an 18 wheeler truck. Floyd Mayweather is. Therefore if I got into a fight with Mike Tyson I'm gonna get floored faster than Floyd mayweather. That doesnt mean that Mike tyson is making me explode from a punch. It just means the guy hits really damn hard.

[godhand-]

I don't understand the freakout behind this. We are in a magical world where getting hit by a LITERAL NUKE doesn't instantly kill you so hard you are reverted to atomic dust. And watching a spooky centipede wiggle around does. Realism about 'x should be unable to subdue y because his sword has an edge.' is just a silly argument.

What I see here is a tool that can give death a bigger meaning, and make it an active decision we take in conflict rather than the sole outcome.

As it is right now you are punished by the system for trying to RP after hostilities. If they die you need to raise them (after their own consent naturally). Or you need to fight with 4 less AB, or you need to fight with a weapon that is not your character's profeciency on top of the penality or you need to use spells that may not be efficient at all compared to your usual arsenal.

Everyone here says that subdual is "good as it is" and I have yet to see it EVER used in a hostage taking situation. Often everyone is corpsed and the "chosen" ones for hostage are raised, the rest are bashed or left to rot.

Now how to implement this tool into the system ?

1. Dying from anything other than death spells (Implosion, Wail of Banshee, Weird, Phantasmal killer, circle of death, disintegrate, etc...) would make the character reach 0 HP and be incapacitated (as if they were subdued, they will lose all wards in that state and will be impossible to heal/regenerate). They would remain in that state for 10 minutes. They can emote and RP as if they're badly wounded or whatever they want. After 10 minutes they will be able to move once more and stand up with 1 hp.

2. The incapacitated player can at any time opt out of the after PvP RP by using the -unrelent command and go to the fugue.

3. The winning player can at anytime send the incapacitated character to the fugue by attacking him once more.

4. 24 hours rule for PvP would be applied only after one of the players was sent to the fugue.

5. A character can use raise dead on a incapacitated character after 360 seconds of them being down to have them stand up at 1 Hp once more. A character can also use ressurection on a uncapacitated character after 360 seconds of them being down to have them stand up at full HP. (The cooldown of 360 seconds is there to avoid instantly raising uncapacitated players mid PvP).

Perks :

1. Losing players can see events unfold even after being felled, rather than just go straight to the fugue. Such allows the winning side's RP from being appreciated by both parties as both get to see what unfolds after the battle.

2. Death becomes a concious decision to make rather than just an outcome from every hostile engagement. The "we can kill and raise them after." situations will be greatly reduced and death in the world may have a little bit more weight.

3. Forgetfullness and amnesia from being sent to the fugue could be reimplented as now it is an active decision to kill another character rather than just being forced to do it.

Cons :

I don't know, I don't see what can be bad about this. It is an extra option that is unavailable to us now and can be added to better the narrative. Those who still like to instantly corpse people can still do that (like just 1 additional click) and those that prefer engaging with their victims after the PvP now can also do that without having to belittle death / ruin their bank account / bend their character's RP just to raise a greater evil for the sake of RP.

Would LOVE to see this implimented

+1 Love this idea as well!

Only con would be re-implementing the post-death amnesia. It's so hard/impossible to police and force people to play by. I believe that's the reason they got rid of that rule and made it optional.

+1 again.

@Void, yes the current system is fine, and it works, but that doesn't mean it can't be improved.
the reality is, with the above mentioned system, the evils are NOT losing the ability to just murk people, they have the same opportunity to do so, potentially with even more evil intent.
*stands over the wounded person and smiles* "Eat s**t and die"
Before kicking their teeth in.

The only things i would suggest is

1: change the 360 timout on resurrections to something more reasonable, like 90 seconds, and allowing regular healing....
If its a large battle of many players, a wounded person on the ground could be reasonably tended to amongst all the mayhem if the attackers are busy and have ignored the wounded.

If the "winner" was standing over the person, having their monologue moment, it would arguably be in breach of the be nice rule for someone to come up, heal the wounded person, and the duo continue the attack after that 90s cooldown.

2: Criticals where the "winner" kills them by over 50dmg past 0 - Thats a decapatation, or an axe cleaving a body in half.
Although not sure how hard it would be to implement this

[godhand-]

Further to my post, one thing the current system doesn't really allow for, is for the "loser" to turn into a coward and scream stop or beg for mercy.
In the heat of pvp, which as mentioned previously can be an adrenaline filled and fast paced affair, the opportunity to type isn't really an option...

Maybe i'm an evil doer fighting a paladin, and our intentions were to kill each other, but at heart i'm actually a coward. Maybe when i realised i'm going to lose i decide i want to grovel and cry and beg for a chance to live. - The current system doesn't allow for that type of roleplay opportunity....

I think the above mention actually gives... MORE weight to death, and even MORE weight to letting someone live, with a stern warning.
It creates MORE RP opportunities all around, which is what we're here for at the end of the day.

Void - i ask you this, would this small change make you stop playing arelith? Do you truly believe it would be to the detriment of the server and experience as a whole?

[chris a gogo]

There is a subdual system.

There are disabling spells.

I used to play on a server that had a subdual system that made everything subdual unless you switched to full damage.

It promoted trigger happiness over substance the feeling people get after bad pvp isn't going to be any better when your forced to listen to the person monologue for ten mins before he kill bashes you.

[Shrouded Wanderer]

There is a subdual system.

There are disabling spells.

I used to play on a server that had a subdual system that made everything subdual unless you switched to full damage.

It promoted trigger happiness over substance the feeling people get after bad pvp isn't going to be any better when your forced to listen to the person monologue for ten mins before he kill bashes you.

Can you elaborate what you mean by "trigger happiness" how was it more than what happens now?

What difference did it make that it was subdual rather than server culture?

[Oaks]

59 replies in this thread now, whereof 21 were made by the same person who, for some reason that's eluding me even after 21 posts, really seems to have problem with the idea of a usable subdual becoming a thing.

When -subdual was first implemented, dev-side concerns were that people stop taking PvP seriously and start to carelessly throw their mechanical weight around.

I'm of the same opinion as many others here that -subdual being actually viable (yes, the way it functions now just isn't viable at all in any situation where you don't outlevel your opponent by far) could function to make PvP deaths more meaningful. When striking to kill becomes a conscious choice, and "getting away with a black eye" becomes an option, death is bound to have more meaning.*

I would rather file reports for the off-chance player that goes about subduing people than see that fun show that's currently on, where there are message boards with multiple messsages on how someone killed a specific person, and gossip consists of "yeah I killed them too yesterday lol".

I would rather see abductions, quarrels, tense situations go through without constant raising and respawning.

There is no argument about "realism". Ever tried martial arts? I can assure you, you can subdue someone without killing them. Perhaps you've watched TV, too, and saw how someone shot someone else in the leg. Perhaps you've read stories in which People duel, but don't try to kill one another.

In the end, no one can lose if we implement -subdual. Don't like it, don't use it.

The question shouldn't be the "if" we should have a proper -subdual mode, it should be the "how" we're can implement it.

I'd personally be on board with:

-Only melee weapons
-Some creative way for magic users to do it after incapacitating someone (i.e. with domination or long stuns)



*Nothing stops anyone from going for the kill anyway. It's then on the players to choose. It can only get better.

[Huschpfusch]

Subdual? Forget about it all.


on -10 HP
player character icon reduced to finishable/bashable corpse on the floor as was
that corpse be resurrectable not healable as was
but no area transfer to fugue plane (thus still able to RP PVP loss/death, plea for mercy...)

instead of transfer to fugue plane
downed player character may enter fugue plane now by entering "-gofugue" command or
remaining characters can finish off the corpse on the floor initiating the fugue transfer or
remaining characters can ressurect corpse

On -10 HP popup dialogue informs downed player of their character's state, their resurrectability and the -gofugue command.

[Skarain]

I do not have the exact quote, but I think i recall Irongon saying in another thread months ago that they do not want to make subdual easier, as not to encourage violence as the go-to in cases of disagreement or hostility (more than it already is).

Take this with a grain of salt however, as I do not have the exact quote and opinions are subject to change.

Dirty Fighting feat exists already for characters who are okay with sacrificing a little of their overall efficiency to capture people alive. In case of casters, bring a melee friend with you, tell them to use subdual, a subdual weapon and use your spells to debuff/disable to offset the disadvantage.

Or if solo just disable spells and use the time to /tell the person to ask if they would like to RP capture?

Neither of those methods is "easy", since again, it will be harder to capure someone alive than to outright kill them. Humanoids in general are fragile beings, after all. Consider that hardship a challenge, not an obstacle, and come prepared.

Sure, that may be harder to execute in a larger battle, but larger battles are by their nature more chaotic so people will inevitably die by accident, unless your side is very, very well coordinated - something you can practice in RP using the arenas.

[Shrouded Wanderer]

I still find it incredibly disingenuous to assume that just because a character isnt sent to the fugue that somehow the server will become some form of arena server.

Fighting and PVP is very common in some parts and I fail to see how not fuging someone will somehow lead to more PVP


I'm not saying anyone is being purposfullly disingenuous but I fail to see how it will lead to PVP being the go to if subdual was easier, especially considering it would be against the rules still.

Theres no avocation of changing the PVP rules, just how a dead character is treated, to allow them to continue to observe or be present at the end of PvP

[Void]

I'm not saying anyone is being purposfullly disingenuous but I fail to see how it will lead to PVP being the go to if subdual was easier, especially considering it would be against the rules still.

The loser doesn't lose anything, they're immediately back in action.

That makes it easy for things to devolve into infinite brawl (because there aren't consequences), and with high populace this is bound to happen. So being concerned about cheapening of conflict and brawls is a reasonable reaction.

Besides, "observing" is pretty much a spectator mode from FPS arenas. From RP perspective if they're out cold, they shouldn't be able to spectate. To OOC discuss the thing that happened later you can simply ask someone to record it.

[CookieMonster]

The argument against a system like this is a mere case of "You are taking my toys off me." You loose nothing, your ability to kill bash is not being taken away so calm your little legs

Your Character falls below 0. You become 'Dead' and a shown the 'Wait' 'Respawn' screen. If you wait, you begin to bleed out. But for a limited time you can interact. If you respawn you go to fugue. If you don't pick, you begin to bleedout anyway.


Your Character dies to a Death Spell or a Critical Hit? Straight to Fugue!

You have just murdered a Character. But you want their skull. Any attacking action invokes a 'Coup De Grace', you have yourself a bashable corpse.

'Dead' and Bashable Corpse can be raised with a Raise Dead or Resur spell only.


What have you lost? Nothing.. What have we gained? More RP potential.

Just make this the Default and people will soon forget.

[Shrouded Wanderer]

The issue that I constantly see in this thread is unfounded fears that dont make any logical sense at all


First we hear its taking choices away from character, which is completely logically inconsistent. Adding an additional step to our normal process of smacking someone into the fugue takes zero choices away.


Then we hear that its never gonna happen because we do a lot of damage and people would die to that amount of damage. And how you cant subdue somone with a machine gun. Its also a fallacy of an arguement as you can infact wound some one with any modern weapon

Then we hear that suddenly the server will become a PVP fest suddenly because... Why?

[Hedgehog]

Having the option to mechanically deliver a “Graceful Death” would be really nice.

In the few instances I’ve been in PvP, my Paladin would gather the corpses and have them burned so they would be absorbed to dust; in order to do this though, it involves “killbashing” the corpse which, I just found out a few moments ago, results in SEVERE penalties involving resurrection sickness, and I really don’t want to make the player’s gameplay suffer for experiencing a defeat, just because the mechanics of doing so would result in that...

UNLESS, I simply let the bodies rot- but to me, and to Tristan, doing something like that strikes me as gauche.

If there’s a way a graceful death could be delivered either via a burning pyre, or like, via burial with a shovel and suitable ground, that would be really nice and cool.

In the meantime, I’ll just need to head-canon it I guess and pretend that Tristan didn’t just leave the bodies to rot, and that he gave them a proper deliverance.

[Scar]

I don't understand the freakout behind this. We are in a magical world where getting hit by a LITERAL NUKE doesn't instantly kill you so hard you are reverted to atomic dust. And watching a spooky centipede wiggle around does. Realism about 'x should be unable to subdue y because his sword has an edge.' is just a silly argument.

What I see here is a tool that can give death a bigger meaning, and make it an active decision we take in conflict rather than the sole outcome.

As it is right now you are punished by the system for trying to RP after hostilities. If they die you need to raise them (after their own consent naturally). Or you need to fight with 4 less AB, or you need to fight with a weapon that is not your character's profeciency on top of the penality or you need to use spells that may not be efficient at all compared to your usual arsenal.

Everyone here says that subdual is "good as it is" and I have yet to see it EVER used in a hostage taking situation. Often everyone is corpsed and the "chosen" ones for hostage are raised, the rest are bashed or left to rot.

Now how to implement this tool into the system ?

1. Dying from anything other than death spells (Implosion, Wail of Banshee, Weird, Phantasmal killer, circle of death, disintegrate, etc...) would make the character reach 0 HP and be incapacitated (as if they were subdued, they will lose all wards in that state and will be impossible to heal/regenerate). They would remain in that state for 10 minutes. They can emote and RP as if they're badly wounded or whatever they want. After 10 minutes they will be able to move once more and stand up with 1 hp.

2. The incapacitated player can at any time opt out of the after PvP RP by using the -unrelent command and go to the fugue.

3. The winning player can at anytime send the incapacitated character to the fugue by attacking him once more.

4. 24 hours rule for PvP would be applied only after one of the players was sent to the fugue.

5. A character can use raise dead on a incapacitated character after 360 seconds of them being down to have them stand up at 1 Hp once more. A character can also use ressurection on a uncapacitated character after 360 seconds of them being down to have them stand up at full HP. (The cooldown of 360 seconds is there to avoid instantly raising uncapacitated players mid PvP).

Perks :

1. Losing players can see events unfold even after being felled, rather than just go straight to the fugue. Such allows the winning side's RP from being appreciated by both parties as both get to see what unfolds after the battle.

2. Death becomes a concious decision to make rather than just an outcome from every hostile engagement. The "we can kill and raise them after." situations will be greatly reduced and death in the world may have a little bit more weight.

3. Forgetfullness and amnesia from being sent to the fugue could be reimplented as now it is an active decision to kill another character rather than just being forced to do it.

Cons :

I don't know, I don't see what can be bad about this. It is an extra option that is unavailable to us now and can be added to better the narrative. Those who still like to instantly corpse people can still do that (like just 1 additional click) and those that prefer engaging with their victims after the PvP now can also do that without having to belittle death / ruin their bank account / bend their character's RP just to raise a greater evil for the sake of RP.

Going to have to agree with this idea.
Killbash culture on the server isn't fun, or engaging. This takes steps to reduce that.

Not everyone has the time to deal with two hours of summoning sickness because they ran into a gank-happy kill squad.

[Shrouded Wanderer]

I don't understand the freakout behind this. We are in a magical world where getting hit by a LITERAL NUKE doesn't instantly kill you so hard you are reverted to atomic dust. And watching a spooky centipede wiggle around does. Realism about 'x should be unable to subdue y because his sword has an edge.' is just a silly argument.

What I see here is a tool that can give death a bigger meaning, and make it an active decision we take in conflict rather than the sole outcome.

As it is right now you are punished by the system for trying to RP after hostilities. If they die you need to raise them (after their own consent naturally). Or you need to fight with 4 less AB, or you need to fight with a weapon that is not your character's profeciency on top of the penality or you need to use spells that may not be efficient at all compared to your usual arsenal.

Everyone here says that subdual is "good as it is" and I have yet to see it EVER used in a hostage taking situation. Often everyone is corpsed and the "chosen" ones for hostage are raised, the rest are bashed or left to rot.

Now how to implement this tool into the system ?

1. Dying from anything other than death spells (Implosion, Wail of Banshee, Weird, Phantasmal killer, circle of death, disintegrate, etc...) would make the character reach 0 HP and be incapacitated (as if they were subdued, they will lose all wards in that state and will be impossible to heal/regenerate). They would remain in that state for 10 minutes. They can emote and RP as if they're badly wounded or whatever they want. After 10 minutes they will be able to move once more and stand up with 1 hp.

2. The incapacitated player can at any time opt out of the after PvP RP by using the -unrelent command and go to the fugue.

3. The winning player can at anytime send the incapacitated character to the fugue by attacking him once more.

4. 24 hours rule for PvP would be applied only after one of the players was sent to the fugue.

5. A character can use raise dead on a incapacitated character after 360 seconds of them being down to have them stand up at 1 Hp once more. A character can also use ressurection on a uncapacitated character after 360 seconds of them being down to have them stand up at full HP. (The cooldown of 360 seconds is there to avoid instantly raising uncapacitated players mid PvP).

Perks :

1. Losing players can see events unfold even after being felled, rather than just go straight to the fugue. Such allows the winning side's RP from being appreciated by both parties as both get to see what unfolds after the battle.

2. Death becomes a concious decision to make rather than just an outcome from every hostile engagement. The "we can kill and raise them after." situations will be greatly reduced and death in the world may have a little bit more weight.

3. Forgetfullness and amnesia from being sent to the fugue could be reimplented as now it is an active decision to kill another character rather than just being forced to do it.

Cons :

I don't know, I don't see what can be bad about this. It is an extra option that is unavailable to us now and can be added to better the narrative. Those who still like to instantly corpse people can still do that (like just 1 additional click) and those that prefer engaging with their victims after the PvP now can also do that without having to belittle death / ruin their bank account / bend their character's RP just to raise a greater evil for the sake of RP.

Going to have to agree with this idea.
Killbash culture on the server isn't fun, or engaging. This takes steps to reduce that.

Not everyone has the time to deal with two hours of summoning sickness because they ran into a gank-happy kill squad.

Agreed.


Its a much better system than what we have now and has zero drawback.

Anyone that says otherwise I would go so far as to say are being disingenuous at best, it gets rid of nothing and adds everything.

Nobody loses anything they can only gain from this

[Morgy]

I don't understand the freakout behind this. We are in a magical world where getting hit by a LITERAL NUKE doesn't instantly kill you so hard you are reverted to atomic dust. And watching a spooky centipede wiggle around does. Realism about 'x should be unable to subdue y because his sword has an edge.' is just a silly argument.

What I see here is a tool that can give death a bigger meaning, and make it an active decision we take in conflict rather than the sole outcome.

As it is right now you are punished by the system for trying to RP after hostilities. If they die you need to raise them (after their own consent naturally). Or you need to fight with 4 less AB, or you need to fight with a weapon that is not your character's profeciency on top of the penality or you need to use spells that may not be efficient at all compared to your usual arsenal.

Everyone here says that subdual is "good as it is" and I have yet to see it EVER used in a hostage taking situation. Often everyone is corpsed and the "chosen" ones for hostage are raised, the rest are bashed or left to rot.

Now how to implement this tool into the system ?

1. Dying from anything other than death spells (Implosion, Wail of Banshee, Weird, Phantasmal killer, circle of death, disintegrate, etc...) would make the character reach 0 HP and be incapacitated (as if they were subdued, they will lose all wards in that state and will be impossible to heal/regenerate). They would remain in that state for 10 minutes. They can emote and RP as if they're badly wounded or whatever they want. After 10 minutes they will be able to move once more and stand up with 1 hp.

2. The incapacitated player can at any time opt out of the after PvP RP by using the -unrelent command and go to the fugue.

3. The winning player can at anytime send the incapacitated character to the fugue by attacking him once more.

4. 24 hours rule for PvP would be applied only after one of the players was sent to the fugue.

5. A character can use raise dead on a incapacitated character after 360 seconds of them being down to have them stand up at 1 Hp once more. A character can also use ressurection on a uncapacitated character after 360 seconds of them being down to have them stand up at full HP. (The cooldown of 360 seconds is there to avoid instantly raising uncapacitated players mid PvP).

Perks :

1. Losing players can see events unfold even after being felled, rather than just go straight to the fugue. Such allows the winning side's RP from being appreciated by both parties as both get to see what unfolds after the battle.

2. Death becomes a concious decision to make rather than just an outcome from every hostile engagement. The "we can kill and raise them after." situations will be greatly reduced and death in the world may have a little bit more weight.

3. Forgetfullness and amnesia from being sent to the fugue could be reimplented as now it is an active decision to kill another character rather than just being forced to do it.

Cons :

I don't know, I don't see what can be bad about this. It is an extra option that is unavailable to us now and can be added to better the narrative. Those who still like to instantly corpse people can still do that (like just 1 additional click) and those that prefer engaging with their victims after the PvP now can also do that without having to belittle death / ruin their bank account / bend their character's RP just to raise a greater evil for the sake of RP.

Going to have to agree with this idea.
Killbash culture on the server isn't fun, or engaging. This takes steps to reduce that.

Not everyone has the time to deal with two hours of summoning sickness because they ran into a gank-happy kill squad.

Agreed.


Its a much better system than what we have now and has zero drawback.

Anyone that says otherwise I would go so far as to say are being disingenuous at best, it gets rid of nothing and adds everything.

Nobody loses anything they can only gain from this

Another massive +1.. Please implement this if possible! It's great.

[Marisakis]

+1
Dew it. I've always been fond of after-defeat RP over bashkill.

Especially for magic users, this would be really useful. Duration of spells like Hold Person, because of how time passes in game, is not very suitable for defeat/capture, and even less so for scenes with a deep emotional investment.

I'm trying to think of how a mage would subdue a target. Of course, having Hold spells just drop someone to 0HP isn't exactly feasible either. And it probably would be too exploitable to give extra damage or coup de grace on targets that are stunned/dazed/paralysed just because someone has chosen to enter subdual mode. So in the end it's always going to come down to doing damage?

[Best Rich Face]

I'm trying to think of how a mage would subdue a target. Of course, having Hold spells just drop someone to 0HP isn't exactly feasible either. And it probably would be too exploitable to give extra damage or coup de grace on targets that are stunned/dazed/paralysed just because someone has chosen to enter subdual mode. So in the end it's always going to come down to doing damage?

Creatively.

Mages, whether wizards or sorcerers, require a certain amount of creativity to learn how to manipulate the forces of magic.

With enough damage from cold spells, you can argue hypothermia and sluggishness could be your 'subdual' damage. Hypothermia of course can kill, but it takes time to do so.

Damage from fire or heat spells could be used to cause the body to shut down ala heatstroke. Again, potentially lethal, but manageable if the heat is removed.

Lightning? Plenty of people have been electrocuted and survived, including being hit by literal lightning. Depending on how severe the exposure, some retain consciousness, others do not.

Water based spells? Drowning, of course. There's little difference between that and suffocation.

Necromancy? You sap their essence via negative energy until they are too weak to stand.

Etcetera, etcetera.

Roleplaying in a fantasy setting is an exercise in storytelling through justifying why the impossible can and is occurring, especially as far as magic is concerned.

I am absolutely certain our community can handle that enough to consider making a change that would allow a conclusion to PVP besides "both parties back off despite a janky game interface" and "One or more parties is ejected from the roleplay for 24 hours unless an OOC agreement is made and a costly spell is used."

[TimeAdept]

Subdual Spell in pnp is a +0 metamagic.

There is only gain in letting subdual be:

1: Free for everyone to use with no penalties
2: Usable by all types of magic and weapons
3: Does not take a feat to use effectively.

We're superheroic character doing superheroic things. If you can't rationalize how a mage capacle of reshaping reality to their whim can't just knock someone unconscious rather then erase them from this mortal coil, then the problem here isn't with the system.

PvP can be a RP extender, but just as often it's an RP ender. The ability to easily render someone "unconscious" rather than a skull will do nothing but enable further RP options. Those who wish to do -unrelent style purposeful fights to the death or etc will still be able to opt into that just as easily as everyone else is now able to fight to subdual and continue RP after - even if that RP is simply more hostility and a followup finisher, the fact that the opportunity is *there* means encounters are less likely to end that way, and by the same extension, means death will be given a *little* more gravity - because the option to NOT kill is now there.

[Shrouded Wanderer]

Oftentimes I do see the arguement that because it doesnt outright end the interaction that PVP will be used more.


The only legitimate thing I could say to that is that I don't think it will and I dont think there is any actual supporting evidence to prove that it will.

A trial run update could be in the cards. I would say