Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I guess what I meant is that if we take other dex focused classes... where are they getting their damage from? Monks attack a lot and have relatively high base damage. Rogues have sneak and bonus to ab out of stealth. Swashbucklers, after all their damage bonuses, still dont have much... So 21/4/5 with WM to boost up the damage sounds like a fun build. Cant really think of any other fun builds.

The damage output isn't bad, especially when you tag an ~30-60 con decrease with the on hit.

By the nature of PvP, generally speaking outside of shotgun builds, survival prevails. While the damage isn't oppressive in of itself, you are very difficult to kill, which allows you to put out that damage for longer.

If you are actively draining con more times then not then yes, the damage is actually quite good. I just don't see how you are in pvp at all.

[AstralUniverse]

A primary fort class normally reaches 25ish fort before gear. Lets assume 30 with gear (mundane). Pure swashbuckler has 33 dc right? 10% on hit is fine against your target's primary save I think.

[Drowboy]

Wizard with 18 con gets, eh, 21 before saves gear? 28ish after? That should be a 25% loss chance on something hitting every round, if the DC is accurate. In fact.

Assume 18 starting int, 30 swash ( I still am not sold on pure swash but each own), and ohhhhh...
33 base bluff+6 bracers+6 gift+12 other gear + 3 focus + 10 epic focus (since we're a 30 swash and want to actually land this for the extras, having forsaken WM or even epic weapon spec) + let's say with base 8 cha, the +2 bracers, and a +5 eagle's roll we have a 15 score and thus a +2 bonus which gets doubled = 74 bluff. So close. Let's pretend we went nuts and runed our shield for another point. 75.

This is an extreme case but that gives of 10 int+15 swash+15 bluff dc for a solid 40 chance of fortsave con loss (4 points) or refsave int loss (4 points). 39 without the assumption of 1 more bluff. You can drop starting int to 16 if you like and still hit 38, dealing 3 points per stroke. Even with that, the wizard has to hit around a 10, chancing your quarter chance to a half chance. Give or take. The 30 fort guy now has to roll around a 9, which seems fair to me since he's probably failing the reflex save and missing you more often each round.

This is all blue-skying though, and I probably still wouldn't run a full swash. Maybe a capstone power would be nice.

[Beard Master Flex]

I don’t want to belittle something someone worked really hard on but I struggle to see the objective of the class. Thematically a swashbuckler is just an agile sword fighter.

Sounds like any variation of a fighter/rogue to me.

[AstralUniverse]

I hate to agree that, at least in my opinion, right now it seems like I would pick a different class for the concept of swashbuckler. dex wm, dex bard, just a cookie cutter rogue... really any of them seems stronger and still fits the same concept thematically in their own ways. I still think the core idea of a dex/int focused melee class with full bab and tumble as a class skill a good idea that can find a good spot among the arelith classes. But due to the way it scales, the levels it gets it's abilties, etc, it doesnt offer anything good enough to be comparable to things like sneak attack, umd, weapon specialization, etc. But the core idea (full bab, 2 primary saves, tumble and discipline access) is unique and there's potential there for sure.

I dont see anything 'clever'. Everything scales linearly. When I look at other classes (specially those who werent touched a lot) I can often find a breach. Something clever to do. Simple things... like "oh look, I can take epic weapon speclialization on a Cot lvl, if I already have weapon specialization from a previous fighter lvl" just an example that comes to my mind. I'd like to see more of these small boons added to swashbucklers and open interesting multiclassing.

[Ork]

Swashbuckler isn't a dex fighter. He's a melee disabler. The abilities seem pretty awesome and I love the flair to this class. Good work! I'm sure there's always tweaks to be had, but in a 15 y/o game..anything added is a net GOOD.

[AstralUniverse]

I agree that any attempt to add new content is appreciated and I think I've said several times now that I'm grateful. Beyond that point, I'd like to express my opinion and feedback even if they arent positive. Make no mistake, I appreciate every second someone spends on development and it is not for granted at all. But if I checked and saw that mathematically it is inferior to classes with similar playstyle then I will say so. So when you say...

He's a melee disabler

But other classes with disables have better DCs on their disables. Stunning fist, grenades for rogue, poisons for assassin, pdk or barb fear - they all have better DC scaling than Swashbuckler and I can back it up mathematically (but please dont make me do that again). Point is, tweaks are necessary.

Panache is completely useless. I'd suggest to separate it from charisma and make it give bonus to social skills from a different scale. This will help the disabler's disables. I've said in another thread that 10% on hit is legit but when you consider its only for a pure swashbuckler, I dont think it's legit all that much actually.

[Ork]

panache is completely useless ...now. dev's have made a lot of comments that diplomacy was going to be useful.

[Opustus]

But the disablers trigger with every attack. Even if enemies only fail at 1, they'll still be failing a lot, especially if dualwielding. Last I checked, both effects were rolled until success and then they went on a 1-round cooldown. You don't need to take extra actions or other measures to use them, e.g. to throw a grenade, to have the enemy flat-footed, to cast spells, to use rage, or so on.

It's objectively a good ability by virtue of existing, because you attack constantly for constant damage output and hence trigger the disables constantly. The balance of the disables can't be evaluated intrinsically, but have to be taken as a single feature of the class and its builds and compared against others. How it compares in terms of damage and AC is important in deciding what weight and how strong the DC of the disables ought to be, but it can also mean that the DC shouldn't be tweaked but the disable effect, damage, AC, skills, feats etc. That said, calculating these things is relatively easy and I'm sure Garrbear's done some excelling to make sure the numbers are in line with other classes.

Generally though, if something is bound to trigger all the time with a -2 to -3 Con decrease, I'm happy to have middling DC so you can't build around just DC and number of attacks and disregard damage.

[Sockss]

But the disablers trigger with every attack. Even if enemies only fail at 1, they'll still be failing a lot, especially if dualwielding. Last I checked, both effects were rolled until success and then they went on a 1-round cooldown. You don't need to take extra actions or other measures to use them, e.g. to throw a grenade, to have the enemy flat-footed, to cast spells, to use rage, or so on.

I think this is a bug, at least it's not what the description says should happen. (And shouldn't be what should happen imo because it promotes too much monk synergy)

Although to reiterate I think the class suffers from the lack of identity. There's nothing really unique about it and the primary abilities are very similar to other classes. Comparing it to a dex fighter/rogue etc, which you can and people are, there's clear-cut winners. Ideally you should be looking at swashbuckler and saying "well this is like comparing a rogue to a mage" which, I mean, you totally can but it has a lot more depth than 'this AC is higher but its damage is proportionally lower'. It's not weak, but it's not interesting.

[Opustus]

Fighter20/WM7/Rogue3 v. Swashbuckler21/WM5/Fighter4 compares thusly


FIGHTER/WM/ROGUE
AC 10 + Dex 1 + Armor 8 + Armor AC 4 + Deflect 4 + Barkskin 4 + Shield 8 + Tumble 6 + Dodge 1 + Mage shield 1 + Armorskin 2
= 10+1+8+4+4+4+8+6+1+1+2
= 49

AB base 25 + Str 14 + Weapon AB 3 + EWF 3 + Prowess 1 + WM 1
= 47

Mean damage base 3.5 + STR 14 + damask 6 + EWS 6 + essence 4 + essence 4
= 37.5
with full 55% crit chance and 100% hit chance 62 mean damage per hit

SWASH/WM/FIGHTER
AC 10 + Dex 4 + Armor 3 + Armor AC 5 + Deflect 4 + Barkskin 3 + Shield 5 + Tumble 6 + Dodge 1 + Mage shield 1 + Armorskin 2 + Swash 4
= 10+4+3+5+4+3+5+6+1+1+2+4
= 48

AB base 25 + Str 14 + Weapon AB 3 + EWF 3 + Prowess 1 + WM 1
= 47

Mean damage base 3.5 + STR 14 + damask 6 + EWS 6 + essence 4 + essence 4 + swash 2 + swash 5
= 44.5
with full 45% crit chance and 100% hit chance mean 60 mean damage per hit

I think at a quick glance, the two compare pretty evenly. On top of this, you can take into account the extra feats that fighter gets, the perks of having UMD for a steady input of improved invis in solo and such goodies, and the Swash's extra abilities and their general usefulness in PvP and PvM.


But yeah, I get what you mean. The few really interesting abilities don't make it clearly stand out. Also, the builds seem pretty locked into fixed compositions, which is certainly good for balance, but it makes it a bit rigid as a thing to have fun with. The idea of making a dexterity character without stealth also breaks my heart, but suppose it's easy enough to multiclass for that versatility.

[Freyason]

SWASH/WM/FIGHTER
AC 10 + Dex 4 + Armor 3 + Armor AC 5 + Deflect 4 + Barkskin 3 + Shield 5 + Tumble 6 + Dodge 1 + Mage shield 1 + Armorskin 2 + Swash 4
= 10+4+3+5+4+3+5+6+1+1+2+4
= 48

Barkskin 4 so total of 49

[TimeAdept]

He's figuring having to use Barkskin pots or scrolls on a non UMD class, being self sufficient with no outside help.

[AstralUniverse]

You can also calculate it with shadowshield scroll and +5 ac but that's an expensive calculation.

[a shrouded figure]

Swash seems interesting to be as being a full bab tumble / disc dip + int to damage. Things that immediately come to mind would be the new standard for spellsword dips (25ss 5sw is pretty interesting for 16 bab prior to 20 + full tumble, disc, and + 5 int damage)

3 sw -> 16 ss -> 1sw -> 9 ss -> 1 sw is what I built. Obviously a little more dispell vulnerable but not too bad with arcane defense.