Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

An area to facilitate free-form feedback on systems (in-game or out) related to Arelith.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Active DMs, Contributors

User avatar
Aniel
Project Lead
Project Lead
Posts: 356
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:13 pm

Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

Post by Aniel » Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:45 pm

Hello, this post primarily goes out to the building and mechanically inclined members of the community but anyone with suggestions for the class are of course welcome to voice them here.

What I'd like to ask people to post here is their experience with Swashbuckler. It's currently only on the PGCC but within a few days at most should find its way onto the live servers.

Some very interesting information that we'd like to look over is your best attempts at 'breaking' the class, the strongest builds you can come up with and where you think it fits in relation to everything already existing.

We'll try to listen to feedback as much as possible and monitor the state of the class to be as healthy for the Arelith environment as possible.

Also, it'd be appreciated if bugs are kept to the Bug Forum. This section should only be used for feedback.

Drowboy
Posts: 744
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 8:30 am

Re: Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

Post by Drowboy » Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:14 am

Running dual kama monk (and possibly anything dual wield) gives you second intention triggers on the first successful hit with both weapons, which might be unintentional.

In fact, is the stuff applying to your offhand at all intentional?
Archnon wrote: I like the idea of slaves and slavery.

User avatar
garrbear758
Posts: 1521
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:20 am

Re: Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

Post by garrbear758 » Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:28 am

Drowboy wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:14 am
Running dual kama monk (and possibly anything dual wield) gives you second intention triggers on the first successful hit with both weapons, which might be unintentional.

In fact, is the stuff applying to your offhand at all intentional?
That was a bug that should be fixed as of the last reset.
You've done it [Garrbear], you've kicked the winemom nest. -Redacted

Drowboy
Posts: 744
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 8:30 am

Re: Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

Post by Drowboy » Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:33 am

Mega-nevermind then, not op depending on how you feel about single handed monk ubab.
Archnon wrote: I like the idea of slaves and slavery.

CptJonas
Posts: 422
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:36 pm

Re: Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

Post by CptJonas » Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:35 am

Well...there is much to say....so...lets start

First...I like that balance of power where you benefit from so many stats but at same time its nearly imposible to gear it in way so you get all benefits...Thats good...

1) You have no reason to go Dex build...even tho you get fines weapon, its better to go STR for damage, and have just enough dex to cover your medium armor and +2 damage bonus from DEX...Best armor to go for are: Draconic Armor, Ranger's runic studded leather, Armor of the Wilds, Padded Vestment of the Holy Squire....All gets you around 13 AC + bonuses...

And main reason why not to go dex is...you dont get evasion...nor any feat which benefits from it, and you cant resonably go for best DEX feat "Epic dodge" unles you get like 10 levels in epic in shadowdancer...which is bad bcs you weaken yourself by feats, Swashbuckler features, Discipline and other skills, and at same time double up on slipery mind which is waiste...

2) Best multiclass options that I can think of are WM (5-7 levels), Paladin(4 levels), and Shadowdancer(5 levels)...and of course Assasin(Best probably 9 or 10)...

3) Best races: Wood elf, Sun elf, and teoreticly swirf bcs even tho it have bad stats, you can go for +5 weapon (light hammer is finesable)

CptJonas
Posts: 422
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:36 pm

Re: Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

Post by CptJonas » Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:47 am

Yeah..and one more thing that I noticed nearly inmidietly....
You get all cool stuff around on levels preepic levels....you have basicly no reason to go over 20-21 level, bcs all main features are on lover levels, and main selling point of swash (int bonus damage) is caped basicly at lvl 10 bcs you cant reasonably go higher then then modifier of 10 even if you gear for it....

You have no reason to go into low multiclass (like26/4) or pure (28+) route bcs there is simply no realy good cookie that would justify it...which is shame in my personal opinion...

Drowboy
Posts: 744
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 8:30 am

Re: Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

Post by Drowboy » Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:57 am

Gear AC testing a dex one was something like 14 from dex, 3 from enchanted fine silk, and 5 from a fencing buckler, 3 from a helmet.
25 from gear and dex.

Strength would be (assuming you take something for UMD which I'm iffy on)
Lesser ranger studded leather (Wiki says 15 umd req? That's wild) or draconic armor, for 8 total + 4 dex + 5 fencing buckler + 3 from helmet.
20 from gear and dex. 5 AC is kinda rough, and you lose blinding speed if you're so inclined.

I'll have to run a strength version to see if it's more competitive than the dex one, but a 21SB/4F/5WM, dex, was doing acceptably well. Third intention is beastly and probably my favorite draw to the class. Damage done, if you gear for bluff real heavy will include stacking con drain, which is I guess hard to calculate.

ALL THAT SAID: Uncanny dodge and evasion would be really, really nice to have around the 5-12 range, so it's not an everything-but-umd dump, and a 1-2 second extension to third intention and a round or three to the level 24 ability at level 28 or so might be nice to encourage single-classing, I guess, if you care about single-classing.

EDIT: Also, given that it's got Dex Intentions, it might be nice if it gave even half progression towards the blinding speed cooldown

Double EDIT: On the topic of assassin I tried a SB 21/fighter 4/sin 5, mostly for the silliness of alpha striking someone for feint/second intention/death attack/poison, but the poison doesn't stack. Assassinate for an extra 7 damage on top of what it's got is nice if you refuse utterly to be a WM. Haven't tried a SB/BG-or-Pal yet, but I suspect it's kind've eh.

Triple Edit: Gonna edit instead of double post. STR-based 21SB/4F/5WM is about what I expected. Running the same buffs, it gets 5 less AC, 9-12ish more damage (27-36 on a crit), lower reflex saves, everything else identical. tl;dr: it does more damage but gets hit more, obvious tradeoff.
Archnon wrote: I like the idea of slaves and slavery.

User avatar
Dr. B
Posts: 907
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:36 pm

Re: Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

Post by Dr. B » Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:28 am

As far as dex-based goes, SB/Monk combos with quarterstaffs are probably going to be the most potent.
Last edited by Dr. B on Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Aniel
Project Lead
Project Lead
Posts: 356
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:13 pm

Re: Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

Post by Aniel » Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:37 am

Dr. B wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:28 am
As far as dex-based goes, SB/Ftr/Monk combos with quarterstaffs are probably going to be the most potent.
Qstaffs are currently removed from the table of Swashbuckler weapons. This isn't reflected on the PGCC yet but it isn't something that should be planned around.

User avatar
Dr. B
Posts: 907
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:36 pm

Re: Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

Post by Dr. B » Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:24 am

Ah.

So, basically, 10 or 12 level SB dips are going to be popular for the bonus damage from a fully buffed intelligence score. Combine that with assassin, and you can get Epic Dodge and big damage with the Assassination skill and death attacks. I guess other options are Bard, CoT, and PDK combos. You really don't need to go strength based, because dex builds already get quite formidable damage.

That assassin build tho. :?

If this is something you'd like to avoid, then perhaps consider making it so that the bonus damage from Insightful Strike cannot exceed SB levels divided by two.

Orian_666
Posts: 781
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2015 6:29 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

Post by Orian_666 » Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:43 am

Right, so here's my feedback.

First of all I can absolutely see the vision for the class, see the direction it's meant to take and the role it's supposed to fill.
But after reading quite a bit of the feedback and doing testing of my own i've come to the conclusion that it mostly just falls short of being effective in that role.

I'll explain why, of course.
First of all it's meant to be a strong 1v1 duelist, not OP and guaranteed to win every time, but ultimately have a strong advantage in 1v1 and frankly that's fine, unfortunately though it's kind of lackluster in that regard. Reasons being:

1. It's AC is just about on Par with other melee classes, in some cases quite a bit lower (SS, PM, etc etc) meaning it's definitely not going to perform above or beyond in that regard.
Solution: Honestly I wouldn't change that, making it a Big AC class would just be boring, and there's not technically anything wrong with standard AC.

2. It's main feature being the stat reduction has a hard counter that everyone has full access to and almost everyone will have readily available. That being NEP.
Solution: Someone suggested instead of it being a stat reduction it could be changed to a hard AB decrease and HP decrease, respectively. This could be a stacking debuff reaching a cap based on Class Level, stacking to something like 5 or 6, lasting around 5 or 6 rounds refreshing each time the save is failed and it's reapplied. I'd also add a bleed to it simply for effect.

3. There's very little incentive to go deep into it, in fact it's best position right now is probably as a dip. Taking 5 levels in it benefits other builds more than going heavy into it and taking dips into other classes.
Solution: Add more incentive to going deep into the class, first of all allow it to gain half the benefit of the Blinding Speed CD that Rogue levels do, secondly and this one is going to be controversial but I suggest it get's Epic Dodge for free at 28. Now I know I know this just seems like a repeat of "The Great Monk Invasion" but frankly it's a class that's intended as a Dex class and it's the only one of them that can't actually gain it by itself without a pretty substantial class Dip (10 levels currently), except for Assassin but that's in a good spot as it is so there's no need to bring that into it. The feat suits the intended style, mechanically and thematically, and it would absolutely make a pure build more appealing, more effective, but still not OP to the point of breaking the game like the monk did.

4. The free feats it gets are 50% basically useless. Finesse is good because it's meant to be a Dex class, and Luck of the Heros is fine but ultimately it wouldn't really be a big deal if it was lost too. Mobility is pointless because the class is almost always going to be putting a full investment into Tumble which almost makes the benefit of Mobility completely redundant. Slippery mind just doesn't make sense to me, plus it's also kind of redundant because Will is it's lowest save by far and getting a second roll on a save where 9/10 you're going to need to roll a 20 to pass the save anyway rarely makes a difference. Now this low Will is fine, each class should have weaknesses and Will is one of the Swashbucklers ones, thankfully it has many ways to protect against Will Save spells just like everyone else, which is arguably just another reason why this feat is pointless.
Solution: Change Mobility to Dodge, dodge is by no means a strong feat but it far more strongly reflects the 1v1 image that Swashbuckler has. Change Slippery Mind to Defensive Roll, this also more accurately reflects the style of the class and it still makes Epic Dodge pretty much just as hard to get with a split build as it already does on account of the need for Improved Evasion. Finally, add Uncanny dodge at level 1, 2, or 3, it's a Dex class that needs it, plain and simple.

It has average AB (depending on build it has below average), it has average AC, average damage (barely, which is fine it's a Dex class so it shouldn't have higher damage), very "meh" survivability even in 1v1 where it's intended to shine. The class just needs a little more "umpf" to make it shine and be up there with the rest of the popular classes that go deep into the class and not just a dip.

To summarise the changes i'd make, here we are:
> Change Feint to drop their AB by 1 on a failed save, stacking to 5 capped at Class Level/6, and lasting for 6 rounds refreshed for each application.
> Change 2nd Intention to drop their HP by 10 on a failed save, stacking up to 50 capped at Class Level/6, lasting for 6 rounds refreshed for each application, and also apply "Bleed".
> Grant Epic Dodge at Class Level 28, indicating that they are in fact the master of 1v1 combat and Dexterous Swordplay.
> Grand Blinding Speed Cooldown Reduction based on Class Level, by 1 turn for every 10 levels.
> Change Mobility free feat to Dodge.
> Change Slippery Mind free feat to Defensive Roll.
> Add Uncanny Dodge free feat at level 1, 2, or 3.
> EDIT:
Dr. B wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:24 am
If this is something you'd like to avoid, then perhaps consider making it so that the bonus damage from Insightful Strike cannot exceed SB levels divided by two.
I thought I had more to add as changes/additions but this post has taken so long now I think I forgot them, lol.
Either way though I feel that these changes would first of all rectify the fact that two of it's main features, Feint and 2nd Intention, can be hard countered by every single character on the server very easily, as well as making them more formidable in 1v1 vs other melee like they should be.
A lot of people are asking for Evasion but honestly I think they're fine without it, they get high enough Reflex that most reasons you'd need evasion you're more than likely going to pass the save anyway and half the damage, adding evasion just makes them a bit too strong VS casters which I personally feel they shouldn't have many, if any, strengths against. Swashbucklers are masters of 1v1 melee combat, they shouldn't get extra cookies making them stronger against mages, or even archers.

User avatar
Tarkus the dog
Posts: 1045
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:12 am

Re: Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

Post by Tarkus the dog » Wed Mar 25, 2020 5:50 am

If we're talking casual play, they can be fun.

if we're talking "hey let's make a powerbuild out of this" ( or, well, you know, anywhere near to other classes in the game ), they are not very good and here's why:

Their AC is mediocre in day and age where 50+ ab is a standard, and you could say "hey but they have the similar AC as a rogue or an assassin". The thing is that assassins, monks and rogues get epic dodge and that makes a significant difference. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but since the class is supposed to be a "brain over brawn" kind of thing, I can totally see a barbarian, CoT, or a weaponmaster just steamrolling over a SB. Brawn seems to win in this regard.

Their AB is also mediocre, again, nowadays that 50+ is a standard. A high fighter trashes them in that regard and high fighters ( 25+ levels ) are not something you even see played a lot. 25 plus weaponmaster or 25 plus harper straight out beats them. Oh and, these guys don't stand a chance against spellswords or mages, but I'll get that in a minute.

There's the talk of dipping paladin or blackguard, but in reality you're already spread thin when it comes to your abilities. Rogues and assassins enjoy high HP pools simply because after maxing DEX they can max whatever else they want, and most of the time that will be CON. A rogue can start with 18 Con, take toughness and end up with ridiculous 582 HP pool which I consider pretty good since most of the time in a party the average number I found to be is 400-500. If you want to dip a divine class, you don't get this privilege. But that's not the issue, the issue is that by also going CHA you lose on your AB which is already pretty lame. On top of that, the class encourages you to take INT into your gear, but frankly you're better off gearing STR instead. Then you're also faced with the same issue every single divine dip class faces, and that for the 95% of the time you're not even using all your power ( frieza memes or whatever ). Honestly, this is why I don't play divine dips anymore to begin with. The best you get out of it is fear immunity and saves, but you potentially lose on HP, consistent damage ( for not gearing STR ) and also AB and AC by going less DEX in order to afford the CHA to begin with. Maybe some people enjoy this. Smiters used/are to be a thing for a reason. With all of these things considered, I come to the conclusion that divine dip is not very good for swashbuckler. Again, fighter + harper/paladin/blackguard = good because consistent even when not using divine shield/might, swashbuckler + paladin/harper/bg = not good, because inconsistent when not using divine shield/might.

Okay, skill points. They get 4 + INT per level which is nice, but here's what's bugging me:

You're most likely going to go high Lore and not dip into rogue or bard for UMD, so that's anywhere from 23 to 33 skill points already being used. You need spellcrafting and you need discipline and tumble. Funny thing is, SB gets taunt, and taunt is pretty cool! But you're unlikely to get taunt, because you need to dip into social skills in order to make use of your feint/second intention. I think you can easily give them 6 + INT per level and not make them too powerful. This also makes them actually a pretty solid dip option. 3 SB gives you weapon finesse and a little bit of damage, and you could even go up to 5 if you can afford it for the extra AC. They also get spot which is nice, I guess.

Anyway, they have a few things going for them: The stat drain on hit is actually pretty good, but also not really since their AB sucks. And also not really because NEP is a thing, but also? That's not the end of the world, NEP is breachable. 3rd intention is actually pretty solid, if you can time it well, but that's one of those things that are better visualized in practice than on paper. I can totally see a SB blocking a mage's combo with it and turning the fight around, but I can also see a mage not caring because they are a mage and killing them anyway.

The dash ability is weird. I'm going to have haste when it's essential no matter what, so I don't know what is the point of that. Acrobatics Skill Mastery looks like I'm reading from pen and paper class manual. The level 24 gives you freedom during it, which I hope works even when you're paralyzed as a 'get out of jail' card of sorts, and even if not you could time a bigby or something and that makes it actually pretty useful. But here's my issue with this - I don't really see much of a point of going that high in swashbuckler. It really doesn't give you much when you consider that just 5 levels of fighter will give you a feat, 6 damage and 1 ac. And hell, if you can squeeze in another fighter level that's 2 feats for you. This is my issue with a lot of class on Arelith. Weaponmasters used to be 20/7/3, now they are 25/5 or CoT/barbs. Rogues are 24/6, monks used to be 30 and 30 only, now they are some weird 20/5/5 combination or whatever else people do with them these days. Paladins are 27/3 or 24/4/3, warlocks are pure 30 etc, etc. There is not much of variation to be had ( I don't count dipping 3 paladin or monk as a variation ). Right now, 21 SB seems to be the way to go. And I feel like whatever change is implemented, that will stay the same. It will either be 25 levels because 25th level gives you X, or 21 because there's no point of going above that because other classes give you better stuff ( as it is right now, more or less ), or 30 SB is the way to do it because level 30 gives you devastating critical ( a hyperbole, but you get my point. who's crazy enough to pick anything else? sort of the same way most fiendlocks or druids are pure level 30's ). What I mean is, if you could find a way to dance around those numbers, that would be great. I'd love to see 16 SB/4 FTR/10 COT, 20 SB/10 Snuggybear ( heh! ), 25 SB/5 FTR, all as valid build options.

And on the last note, a lot of feats seem random and weird and not that very useful. Certain features are pretty good, but aren't alluring enough. In comparison, high spellsword is cool because you get to slow and dispel people and have that help you kill them, high SB is not so cool because a 52-53 AB high fighter weaponmaster is not going to beat around the bush and just kill the same target faster without torturing them with stat drain that in the long run won't make that big of a difference anyway. Or a high paladin gets to dispel a person and then kill them. Or a high cleric gets to tank for days and also have a bunch of AB and heals, etc, etc. Swashbucklers really don't add much to the table. They are as good defensively as any other DEX character ( and in a lot of cases they are actually weaker for missing on epic dodge ), and offensively while they do get extra damage, that's not very useful if the AB is pretty weak. Their draining abilities are fun, but not powerful enough to make other classes less desirable, and the one thing that's actually really good on them, you can ( realistically speaking ) use once every 5 minutes. Here's a silly idea that totally can't make them overpowered: Why not, at high level, make it so that 3rd intention is on a 24 second cooldown. That way you get to choose between playing dark souls, or dipping into other classes. I know, I am a genius. Also, please give them evasion. It only makes sense.

User avatar
Dr. B
Posts: 907
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:36 pm

Re: Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

Post by Dr. B » Wed Mar 25, 2020 5:54 am

Mobility is pointless because the class is almost always going to be putting a full investment into Tumble which almost makes the benefit of Mobility completely redundant
Worth pointing out here that Mobility helps it qualify for WM levels, with which its damage synergizes pretty nicely.

Overall, the int-bonus to damage is pretty sweet, but otherwise I agree that investing heavily into the class doesn't offer all that much, aside from the additional AC, which is not terrible, but easily achievable by other classes that get more stuff (compare it with rogues, which are thematically similar but just get a whole lot more nifty things, like epic dodge, grenades, and more). The debuffs are too easily countered and the other perks feel a bit sparse.

-I feel like the movement speed bonuses the Acrobatic Skill Mastery feats could definitely be larger and last longer. A 50% movement speed increase for one round is nothing.

-I also think it's worth considering a temporary bonus to dodge AC when these abilities are used, which would most certainly be thematically fitting given the nature of the ability.

-It might be worth making the debuffs less easily countered; then again they could stay as they are and other cookies could be granted instead.

-I'm not too keen on giving it free Epic Dodge, but maybe an ability on cooldown that grants free concealment? Or just Defensive Roll and Improved Evasion, so players can use up an epic feat for E-dodge?

-Giving it vanilla Evasion would definitely not be game breaking and would fit it thematically.

-One epic feat every four levels is not much.

Overall, I concur with others that there is not much reason to invest heavily into the class. It doesn't feel like it offers much.

Edit: to Tarkus, I think they're actually fine with 4 skill points. You can invest in int and you effectively get 8 per level.
Last edited by Dr. B on Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:17 am, edited 5 times in total.

Orian_666
Posts: 781
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2015 6:29 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

Post by Orian_666 » Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:04 am

Dr. B wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 5:54 am
Mobility is pointless because the class is almost always going to be putting a full investment into Tumble which almost makes the benefit of Mobility completely redundant
Worth pointing out here that Mobility helps it qualify for WM levels, with which its damage synergizes pretty nicely. The int-bonus to damage is pretty sweet, but I agree that investing heavily into the class doesn't offer all that much, as the debuffs are too easily countered and the other perks feel a bit sparse.
Later in my post I suggested replacing it with Dodge, which is also a required feat for WM, so that benefit wouldn't be lost.

User avatar
Dr. B
Posts: 907
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:36 pm

Re: Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

Post by Dr. B » Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:06 am

Kind of makes making a half-elf SB that much more pointless, though.

Orian_666
Posts: 781
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2015 6:29 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

Post by Orian_666 » Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:12 am

That's a very small disadvantage for an over all, albeit slight, improvement to the class (Which benefits all other races more than Mobility, at the cost of a single race option being a tiny bit less effective)

Archnon
Posts: 854
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:05 am

Re: Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

Post by Archnon » Wed Mar 25, 2020 7:53 am

I'm going to add my opinion with the caveat that I have no idea what I am doing :D

I love the idea of a dex based melee class that isn't sneaky. Sort of a rogue option but that wheres everything on their sleeve and shows off their skill with bravado and not concealment and trickery. I like it as a contrast to fighter and rogue. However, as many have pointed out, there is really no reason to build this class as a dex class, other than the AC problem, and even then, without uncanny dodge it is bunk.

First, the Int damage bonus is clearly designed to counter the lack of damage bonuses for finesse as compared to strength. However, there is nothing stopping you from doing a strength build with a rapier and just double dipping. --Perhaps it can be restricted to only when using the dexterity modifier, not just merely using a finessable weapon.

Second, it doesn't get enough of the cookies needed for dex builds, as many have pointed out. What I would suggest, give uncanny dodge at level 7. Drop slippery mind and luck of heros Then give the class the rogue bonus feat schedule of 10 + every 3 levels through epics. Let people pick from a predetermined list but that should include:

defensive roll
improved evasion
slippery mind
opportunist
improved parry (en guard)
disarm/improved disarm (Zorro anyone)
Called Shot (precision)
lightening reflexs (?)
luck of heroes (?)
silver palm
iron will (?)
(Other social feats?)

Epic levels
Blinding speed
Epic Dodge
Epic Skill Focus
Epic Reputation


Also....
- give the class +1 to finessable weapons at level 25 and +2 at level 28 when using dexterity bonus to allow for damage penetration for pure class SB's
- consider giving the parry feats for free or some sort of synergy with Parry as it fits the RP. Perhaps 1 point per 2 levels

These are just ideas aimed at a pure class. I also think it would not be crazy to bar synergy with assassin. I mean, the point of this character is to call attention to yourself with bravado. The Assassin does quite the opposite.

Feel free to totally ignore me and as a final note, I love the thought that went into the really specially feats with regard to the feints and ripostes! Overall this class is really cool and creative and I love the direction it is going.

CptJonas
Posts: 422
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:36 pm

Re: Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

Post by CptJonas » Wed Mar 25, 2020 8:29 am

Tarkus the dog wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 5:50 am

Here's a silly idea that totally can't make them overpowered: Why not, at high level, make it so that 3rd intention is on a 24 second cooldown. That way you get to choose between playing dark souls, or dipping into other classes. I know, I am a genius. Also, please give them evasion. It only makes sense.
I am going to coment just on this...

Please...make it happen...I just love it....Some actual active playstyle....not just click on enemy and pray to dice gods...
I would personaly love to have scaling bonuses on this feature...like both CD and duration...So if you actualy go Pure 30 levels you can get it down to those 24 seconds and maybe to 6 seconds instead of 2...That would actualy made me to go pure...just for that playstyle...

AstralUniverse
Posts: 2724
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:54 pm

Re: Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

Post by AstralUniverse » Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:22 am

Maybe 11 buckler, 4 fighter, 15 cot. Divine Champion... of The Streets. Dunno what I'd do with this class, personally. I like that we're adding new classes and I'm grateful for it. Maybe it should be a bit more towards rogue.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


Heroic Spirit
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 95
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:13 am

Re: Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

Post by Heroic Spirit » Wed Mar 25, 2020 5:10 pm

I'm not sure what version the swashbuckler is based on, but I've been looking at this page: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid ... shbuckler/

What sticks out to me are the bonus feats:
At 4th level and every 4 levels thereafter, a swashbuckler gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement. These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as combat feats. Swashbuckler levels are considered fighter levels for the purpose of meeting combat feat prerequisites.
and some the different deeds:
Targeted Strike (Ex): At 7th level, as a full-round action the swashbuckler can spend 1 panache point to make an attack with a single light or one-handed piercing melee weapon that cripples part of a foe’s body. The swashbuckler chooses a part of the body to target. If the attack succeeds, in addition to the attack’s normal damage, the target suffers one of the following effects based on the part of the body targeted. If a creature doesn’t have one of the listed body locations, that body part cannot be targeted. Creatures that are immune to sneak attacks are also immune to targeted strikes. Items or abilities that protect a creature from critical hits also protect a creature from targeted strikes.

Arms: The target takes no damage from the attack, but it drops one carried item of the swashbuckler’s choice, even if the item is wielded with two hands. Items held in a locked gauntlet cannot be chosen.
Head: The target is confused for 1 round. This is a mind-affecting effect.
Legs: The target is knocked prone. Creatures with four or more legs or that are immune to trip attacks are immune to this effect.
Torso or Wings: The target is staggered for 1 round.
Bleeding Wound (Ex): At 11th level, when the swashbuckler hits a living creature with a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon attack, as a free action she can spend 1 panache point to have that attack deal additional bleed damage. The amount of bleed damage dealt is equal to the swashbuckler’s Dexterity modifier (minimum 1). Alternatively, the swashbuckler can spend 2 panache points to deal 1 point of Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution bleed damage instead (swashbuckler’s choice). Creatures that are immune to sneak attacks are also immune to these types of bleed damage.
Bleeding Wound (Ex): At 11th level, when the swashbuckler hits a living creature with a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon attack, as a free action she can spend 1 panache point to have that attack deal additional bleed damage. The amount of bleed damage dealt is equal to the swashbuckler’s Dexterity modifier (minimum 1). Alternatively, the swashbuckler can spend 2 panache points to deal 1 point of Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution bleed damage instead (swashbuckler’s choice). Creatures that are immune to sneak attacks are also immune to these types of bleed damage.
Perfect Thrust (Ex): At 15th level, while the swashbuckler has at least 1 panache point, she can as a full-round action make a perfect thrust, pooling all of her attack potential into a single melee attack made with a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon. When she does, she makes the attack against the target’s touch AC, and ignores all damage reduction.
Ignoring the panache point system (because I'm sure that would be an nightmare to balance), giving the swash more active abilities could probably be nice for flavor. The closest thing to targeted strike would be disarm(arms)/and knockdown(legs).Though, called shot could probably fit here as well.

Bleeding wound as a single action on CD could help cement the SB as a 1v1 duelist with the bleed damage (assuming bleed could be updated to being magical or ignoring DR).

Perfect Thrust could function well as a 'finisher'. I imagine it would be used during in clutch moments, forgoing all of your attacks in order to ensure your final strike hits its mark. I'd say something along the lines of adding a bit of missing health damage, but that is probably too big of a stretch.
------
All of that aside, I'm still excited for the class in it's current state.
Finesse-based fighters are awesome in theory. The main issue I have is that STR-based SBs seem to outclass DEX overall.
I would gladly take a 3 point AC difference if it means extra points of additional damage.

(The dex buckler had 3 stat rings INT,DEX,STR and still couldn't match the damage of the strength buckler.)

Image

If the class could get an extra cookie for actually using finesse, that would be nice.

Apokriphos
Posts: 155
Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:14 pm

Re: Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

Post by Apokriphos » Wed Mar 25, 2020 8:09 pm

Third intention should provide a visible indication of its use if it doesnt already.

Orian_666
Posts: 781
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2015 6:29 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

Post by Orian_666 » Wed Mar 25, 2020 8:34 pm

Apokriphos wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 8:09 pm
Third intention should provide a visible indication of its use if it doesnt already.
Pretty sure it does the glowy kind of effect like when you apply a temp essence to a weapon.

User avatar
Sockss
Posts: 746
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:09 pm

Re: Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

Post by Sockss » Wed Mar 25, 2020 8:42 pm

I'm not sure what the vision or the objectives of the class are, so I can't make any suggestions. (Swashbuckler can mean wildly different things to different people)

However, I can say that as it is, it doesn't have a mechanical reason to exist. It's other things but worse, across the board.

Edit:

If it can be clarified what the vision of the developers was, I can provide some feedback and suggestions (and I'm sure other peoples will be more on the mark)
Thankfully this team is no longer being used.

Sockss#5567 for nwn mechanics questions.

CptJonas
Posts: 422
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:36 pm

Re: Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

Post by CptJonas » Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:01 pm

Sockss wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 8:42 pm
I'm not sure what the vision or the objectives of the class are, so I can't make any suggestions. (Swashbuckler can mean wildly different things to different people)

However, I can say that as it is, it doesn't have a mechanical reason to exist. It's other things but worse, across the board.
I am sorry to say it...But I must aggree...When I first saw...Full BAB class....with good skills.....with Damage from int...I was like..Gods be praised finaly....But now that I look at it...I can see that it has nothing unique what is in my eyes powerfull or cool enough to go deep into class...so it ends up just like posible Starter/dip class for assasin, or just some weird dip into some unique builds...
But its totaly not viable class on its own...

Its less class then SS or even Wild mage...which are both just paths for existing class...But those atleast core of class which could could make people say "I want to play this class" and actualy do it...not just pick few levels into some mish mash build...

Just look at other classes....Spellsword with their double imbue and EMA, Wild mages with perfect surge on 28+, Barbarians with bonus APR, Rangers with bane and +5 blade thirst, Paladins with +5 and holy sword, Fighters with +x weapons and AC, Druids with monolith and free epic spell, Rogues with +5 weapon and permahaste, Warlocks with perma gate summon and touch atack magic damage blasts, heck even bard with like +16 to skills, .....All those classes have super cool and powerfull benefits which can make you actualy go deep into that class....

Swashbuckler....could have been cool and iteresting class in base game....but if you take into consideration all those arelith class changes and paths....It cant even hold candle to moust base classes....

Dont take it as ofense....I love this idea, and I love that you made actual new base class...just leting you know how things are....Bcs I am realy sad that my dream is shatering right now...

User avatar
Aniel
Project Lead
Project Lead
Posts: 356
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:13 pm

Re: Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

Post by Aniel » Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:50 pm

Swashbuckler Balance Patch 1:

Thank you everyone for your feedback and help with testing. We've made some minor adjustments.
-Removed quarterstaff as a usable weapon for swash feats
-Lowered DCs from (10 + ½ Swash Level + Social Skill / 5) to (½ Dex Mod + ½ Swash Level + Social Skill / 5)
-Increased Acrobatics / Improved Acrobatics Mastery Duration from 1 to 3 rounds.
-Increased Third Intention Duration from 2 to 3 seconds
-Added Uncanny Dodge at level 12
-Added evasion at level 16
-Gave swash 1 turn blinding speed reduction per 12 levels. Stacks with rogues
-Epic feats increased from 24/28 to 23/26/29

Please continue to provide feedback as we finish fine tuning. We expect to be putting it on the main server in about a day.

Post Reply