Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

[AstralUniverse]

Start telling me why I'm wrong

You're wrong because its all brand new and there's no reason to shut down all str iterations of this class instead of doing tweaks.

I'm not sure any strength version isn't just going to be weaker then the options available already, it really depends on how good the intentions are in practice. I just got the sense that this was made to be a dex and intelligence character. That being said I'm pretty sure instead of removing strength flat out it can be tweaked to be "if dex is higher then strength, then.."

Just because min-maxing became the cultural default doesnt mean we need to push to that direction on the level of class design. I like that it has weird scalings with things that dont make sense (like Panache. Who tf is going to afford charisma on this class?). It adds versatility and it does not break the game. So the question is not why, it is why not.

[Kalopsia]

After some testing on PGCC, I think that allowing shield AC to stack with Swashbuckler Dodge AC is not a great idea. Pure Swashbucklers can reach pretty insane AC and Epic Dodge, making them nigh immortal in melee.



The above AC of 64 is still lacking:
+1 from small size (AB is higher too: 49 without Improved Expertise)
+4 from haste
+1 from mage armor
+1 from higher CL barkskin potions
(theoretically also +1 from shield potions)

The total AC this pure DEX swashbuckler can reach is 71 (or 72) in IE with epic dodge, which feels quite unbalanced IMO. If shields disabled their innate dodge AC, that'd drop to 66, which seems more reasonable.

[Dr. B]

I must not be up to date on the most recent changes to the class. How do they get Epic Dodge?

[Drowboy]

What's the stat/class/feat distribution on that? My (Outdated) tests got quite a bit lower on the AC front for 21 SB-type stuff, and going pure should only give 2 more, no?

[Kalopsia]

I must not be up to date on the most recent changes to the class. How do they get Epic Dodge?

"Swashbucklers gain bonus feats at levels 23, 26, and 29. Their bonus feat list includes: all of the fighter bonus feats with the exception of weapon specialization and epic weapon specialization, blinding speed, improved evasion, defensive roll, and epic dodge."

A recent update to the epic bonus feats made Epic Dodge available. :)

What's the stat/class/feat distribution on that? My (Outdated) tests got quite a bit lower on the AC front for 21 SB-type stuff, and going pure should only give 2 more, no?

That's a Svirfneblin with the following starting stats:
STR: 9 DEX: 19 CON: 12 WIS: 10 INT: 16 CHA: 4

Pre-epic feats are: Blind Fight, Weapon Focus, Expertise, Improved Expertise, Improved Critical, Toughness, [spare feat]
Epic feats are: Epic Weapon Focus, Armor Skin, Epic Prowess (could be traded for Blinding Speed), ESF:Discipline
Epic Bonus feats: Improved Evasion, Defensive Roll, Epic Dodge

[Drowboy]

Y'know what? I completely didn't parse that it's in IE. I think the AC on a pure SB is fine for the tradeoff of not slotting in WM or something, honestly.

[Kalopsia]

Y'know what? I completely didn't parse that it's in IE. I think the AC on a pure SB is fine for the tradeoff of not slotting in WM or something, honestly.

Sustained 71AC with Epic Dodge reminds me a lot of the pre-nerf monk situation. 66AC (Swashbuckler without shield) would still be a very good number.

Keep in mind that Epic Dodge essentially prevents natural 20s from hitting you. 71AC with this feat means that anyone with 51AB or less (read: the vast majority of melee builds) will be unable to hit you, unless they roll two 20's in a round.
The chance for this to happen is about 1%.

[Drowboy]

Pre-nerf monks also had a huge pile of extras on top of that, though. And while you can sit at that ac for a while, having low ab/comparably bad damage to other swashbuckler builds (not to mention spellswords etc), and 4 cha really makes up for it, I think.

Your setup is a really competent melee tank but little else, and I don't think that's a problem. There's plenty of hyperspecialized stuff running around. (Not to mention high AC palemasters that can also do the 'low damage high ac' thing but with immunities.)

[CptJonas]

Pre-nerf monks also had a huge pile of extras on top of that, though. And while you can sit at that ac for a while, having low ab/comparably bad damage to other swashbuckler builds (not to mention spellswords etc), and 4 cha really makes up for it, I think.

Your setup is a really competent melee tank but little else, and I don't think that's a problem. There's plenty of hyperspecialized stuff running around. (Not to mention high AC palemasters that can also do the 'low damage high ac' thing but with immunities.)

Exactly my words...
You must také into consideration that people wouldnt go so far...this build isnt something common...its ultra optimized build on 1 thing,...moust people would be naturaly weaker even just for not picking svilf (-2 AB, -2 AC, -2 save, - small statue bonuses)
Or by having feat or 2 fot QaL or RP...
(For example ESF bluff, or even things for dweomercraft)...

Moust importantly...its not broken...there are builds which go into same levels and builds which are even much more tanky...
Is that anoying build for melee? Yeah...
Could any mage nuke you down ez thro will save or just good old clasic IGMS spam? Yeah...

[Dr. B]

Keep in mind that Swashbucklers can still use small shields and keep their abilities. The Fencing Buckler gives, what, +5 AC?

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

You're wrong because its all brand new and there's no reason to shut down all str iterations of this class instead of doing tweaks.

I'm not sure any strength version isn't just going to be weaker then the options available already, it really depends on how good the intentions are in practice. I just got the sense that this was made to be a dex and intelligence character. That being said I'm pretty sure instead of removing strength flat out it can be tweaked to be "if dex is higher then strength, then.."

Just because min-maxing became the cultural default doesnt mean we need to push to that direction on the level of class design. I like that it has weird scalings with things that dont make sense (like Panache. Who tf is going to afford charisma on this class?). It adds versatility and it does not break the game. So the question is not why, it is why not.

I'm not sure we are having the same conversation. My suggestions were intended to boost a level 30 swashbuckler built around dex and intelligence. It would be a high ac medium damage build, which to me fits the theme of the class. While I have no problem with anyone who wants to go strength 21/4/5 sb/F/wm 1) it falls way behind some of the other melee builds trying to do the same thing and 2) doesn't really fit the obvious flavor design of the class.


As far as some of the comparisons to monk, Monks were always able to get insane AC. What made everyone play them for a while is that you could get all these free feats and massive damage per round, plus spell resistance for days.

[Drowboy]

I think it would be reasonable to add a few points of Elegant Strike damage at 26 and 28, but definitely not 'remove strength entirely and give them +30 damage.'

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Just boosting the damage doesn't give any incentive to going toward dex since it boosts the damage for strength builds a well. I don't know, maybe epic dodge out of a melee class is good enough to make people shoot for dex. This is the first time it won't require a heavy investment in a 3/4 bab class, so it might.

[Drowboy]

STR loses epic dodge and a chunk of AC, and is way better off going lower SB to take better advantage of strength. I don't know that it needs more incentives than that, as it's the same incentives a lot of builds trade when deciding between dex and str. NWN standard, as it were.

[Zavandar]

Ranger monk fighter gets comparable ac, more ab, more damage, more apr, hips, but no edodge



??? is probably esf: disc

this is dex based but i didn't have its stat spread. 38 dex buffed though, can tell you that, and 12 wis

[Sockss]

Third intention may be a tad too strong when used in conjunction with a "friendly" hellball.

The ability in of itself on quite a low CD can also be quite problematic if you're looking at ways to combat an SB. Given they're now ED capable, while also being very difficult to pin (acrobatics & 3rd int), or nuke/disable (3rd Int) and have an action advantage with blinding speed (and acrobatics).

I think removing bonuses if equipping any shield, as mentioned, is a good idea. This fits the swashbuckler aesthetic and helps not inflate numbers too much.

Some interesting suggestions to change 3rd Intention:

A spell parry: Rather than granting complete immunity for 3 seconds, you instead gain a window of 3 seconds in which you can reflect (1 / 2 (25)/ All (28)) spells back at their originator (using their CL, discounting epic spells) if the SB is directly targeted.

A passive parry stance boost: When in parry mode, successful riposte hits cause stacking physical vulnerability equal to dex mod, lasting for 1 (21) 2 (25) 3 (28) rounds. (Enables a swashbuckler to make more offensive use of parry stance)

A different passive parry stance boost: When in parry mode, successful riposte hits cause the opponent to be disarmed, lasting for 1 (21) 2 (25) 3 (28) rounds.

[AstralUniverse]

Monk, currently, gets 70+ ac with improved expertise and higher average damage than 25~ even if they multiclass for e-dodge and lose damage for it. Monk has much lower ab than swashbuckler but much better saves (or rather, same saves for ref/fort but no will save to worry about) and I would say, mostly because of the damage out put, a monk is a better swashbuckler than a swashbuckler.

[Sockss]

Monk, currently, gets 70+ ac with improved expertise and higher average damage than 25~ even if they multiclass for e-dodge and lose damage for it. Monk has much lower ab than swashbuckler but much better saves (or rather, same saves for ref/fort but no will save to worry about) and I would say, mostly because of the damage out put, a monk is a better swashbuckler than a swashbuckler.

Worth noting that lower AB = lower damage output.

Though yes, I'd agree with the feeling that swashbuckler doesn't currently feel like a new playstyle - being able to draw direct comparisons with other classes (like monk) on just flat number comparisons is symptomatic of that.

Expanding and specialising on the instant feats, or leaning in to parry would be cool - it would provide a playstyle that nothing else has.

Although I really think the 3rd intention/Hellball combo will be overpowered, little else about the class feels unique.

[AstralUniverse]

Monk, currently, gets 70+ ac with improved expertise and higher average damage than 25~ even if they multiclass for e-dodge and lose damage for it. Monk has much lower ab than swashbuckler but much better saves (or rather, same saves for ref/fort but no will save to worry about) and I would say, mostly because of the damage out put, a monk is a better swashbuckler than a swashbuckler.

Worth noting that lower AB = lower damage output.

Though yes, I'd agree with the feeling that swashbuckler doesn't currently feel like a new playstyle - being able to draw direct comparisons with other classes (like monk) on just flat number comparisons is symptomatic of that.

Expanding and specialising on the instant feats, or leaning in to parry would be cool - it would provide a playstyle that nothing else has.

Although I really think the 3rd intention/Hellball combo will be overpowered, little else about the class feels unique.

I guess what I meant is that if we take other dex focused classes... where are they getting their damage from? Monks attack a lot and have relatively high base damage. Rogues have sneak and bonus to ab out of stealth. Swashbucklers, after all their damage bonuses, still dont have much... So 21/4/5 with WM to boost up the damage sounds like a fun build. Cant really think of any other fun builds.

[CptJonas]

Monk, currently, gets 70+ ac with improved expertise and higher average damage than 25~ even if they multiclass for e-dodge and lose damage for it. Monk has much lower ab than swashbuckler but much better saves (or rather, same saves for ref/fort but no will save to worry about) and I would say, mostly because of the damage out put, a monk is a better swashbuckler than a swashbuckler.

Worth noting that lower AB = lower damage output.

Though yes, I'd agree with the feeling that swashbuckler doesn't currently feel like a new playstyle - being able to draw direct comparisons with other classes (like monk) on just flat number comparisons is symptomatic of that.

Expanding and specialising on the instant feats, or leaning in to parry would be cool - it would provide a playstyle that nothing else has.

Although I really think the 3rd intention/Hellball combo will be overpowered, little else about the class feels unique.

I guess what I meant is that if we take other dex focused classes... where are they getting their damage from? Monks attack a lot and have relatively high base damage. Rogues have sneak and bonus to ab out of stealth. Swashbucklers, after all their damage bonuses, still dont have much... So 21/4/5 with WM to boost up the damage sounds like a fun build. Cant really think of any other fun builds.

I cant help myself....But I like that damage low....
I thing that it fits class fantasy....To have realy high AC, and low damage....when you fight with swash it should be death of thousand cuts...but I will like more AB....That fits best...Exactly my image of swashbuckler is guy with who is super agile and quick but not very strong and fights with rapier....Co high AC, high AB, low damage...

So....let damage be low...But boost AB...I would even consider lowering/changing for curent damage bonus (one or another), to give them bigger boost in AB in exchange...but keep balance...

[Sockss]

I guess what I meant is that if we take other dex focused classes... where are they getting their damage from? Monks attack a lot and have relatively high base damage. Rogues have sneak and bonus to ab out of stealth. Swashbucklers, after all their damage bonuses, still dont have much... So 21/4/5 with WM to boost up the damage sounds like a fun build. Cant really think of any other fun builds.

The damage output isn't bad, especially when you tag an ~30-60 con decrease with the on hit.

By the nature of PvP, generally speaking outside of shotgun builds, survival prevails. While the damage isn't oppressive in of itself, you are very difficult to kill, which allows you to put out that damage for longer.

[CptJonas]

I guess what I meant is that if we take other dex focused classes... where are they getting their damage from? Monks attack a lot and have relatively high base damage. Rogues have sneak and bonus to ab out of stealth. Swashbucklers, after all their damage bonuses, still dont have much... So 21/4/5 with WM to boost up the damage sounds like a fun build. Cant really think of any other fun builds.

The damage output isn't bad, especially when you tag an ~30-60 con decrease with the on hit.

By the nature of PvP, generally speaking outside of shotgun builds, survival prevails. While the damage isn't oppressive in of itself, you are very difficult to kill, which allows you to put out that damage for longer.

Yeah....this works well....in theory...or when you are agains melee....not vs mages....with them you want as much damage as posible bcs more time you give them worse for ya, better for them....especialy if you take into consideration that nearly every swash build ends up with basicly zero will save....

I would still like to see more AB from them...not specificly damage...but AB....that class is about finesse and precision strikes....and yet you hit nearly as hard common fighter but less or same often as them....I am still in lower damage/higher AB team....

BTW idea of this day: What about giving them save AB progresion as monks have? I dont mean bonus APR...just loss of 3 AB isntead of 5 with each atack...

Edit : You can scale it....like make it maybe 24 level 4 AB and 28 3AB...

[AstralUniverse]

I guess what I meant is that if we take other dex focused classes... where are they getting their damage from? Monks attack a lot and have relatively high base damage. Rogues have sneak and bonus to ab out of stealth. Swashbucklers, after all their damage bonuses, still dont have much... So 21/4/5 with WM to boost up the damage sounds like a fun build. Cant really think of any other fun builds.

The damage output isn't bad, especially when you tag an ~30-60 con decrease with the on hit.

By the nature of PvP, generally speaking outside of shotgun builds, survival prevails. While the damage isn't oppressive in of itself, you are very difficult to kill, which allows you to put out that damage for longer.

The damage output isnt bad? Alright I'm done. I just hope they leave the ac as it is, so maybe if I play it one day I will come up with a build that gets 65ish ac instead of 70+ and gets some damage from somewhere.

[CptJonas]

I guess what I meant is that if we take other dex focused classes... where are they getting their damage from? Monks attack a lot and have relatively high base damage. Rogues have sneak and bonus to ab out of stealth. Swashbucklers, after all their damage bonuses, still dont have much... So 21/4/5 with WM to boost up the damage sounds like a fun build. Cant really think of any other fun builds.

The damage output isn't bad, especially when you tag an ~30-60 con decrease with the on hit.

By the nature of PvP, generally speaking outside of shotgun builds, survival prevails. While the damage isn't oppressive in of itself, you are very difficult to kill, which allows you to put out that damage for longer.

The damage output isnt bad? Alright I'm done. I just hope they leave the ac as it is, so maybe if I play it one day I will come up with a build that gets 65ish ac instead of 70+ and gets some damage from somewhere.

Well....you got like around 25 damage on hit with AB around 46-48...which is...meh..These days moust melee focused builds gets past 50 AB and with damage around 40-50.... (all those damages are ofc before crits)

[AstralUniverse]

I dont know. The fact we got a new class is exciting. I'll probably try to do something with it when I feel like playing a swashbuckler concept. That said, I might also make a swashbuckler concept from a different class that feels stronger for THAT concept. I mean, even a trashy dex based bard can win 1v1 against a pure swashbuckler if you look at the tools each class has. So what I think right now is that I'm going to wait and see what people come up with. Maybe str-based swashbucklers are strong, deceptively. We'll see.