Slavery System Feedback

An area to facilitate free-form feedback on systems (in-game or out) related to Arelith.

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Kuma
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Re: Slavery System Feedback

Post by Kuma » Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:54 pm

actual question, does ward teleport block the slave callers?

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Re: Slavery System Feedback

Post by Vespidae » Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:48 pm

I played a slave as a starting option, and I had a great time with it. I made the decision at character generation that I was going to try and escape, and that informed Duster's entire story and interactions.

More interesting options for slaves and their owners to create their stories would definitely be a good thing, though. Reading this thread, there's some good ideas and it's given me so ideas too:

Masters get a tool that allows them a few options. Maybe it works a bit like Factions.

- Restrict slave access to their own bank accounts (does NOT let the master access their account) either by turning it off completely, or letting them only withdraw a little every IG day (500 gp, for example, or an amount set by the owner)
- Let the master take a portion of the slave's writ income (set 25, 50 or 75%)
- Let the master restrict which portals the slave can visit (i.e can prevent them visiting the surface, Sibayad, Cordor, Underdark, or make it impossible for them to use portal destinations at all EXCEPT the Hub portal for UD slaves, Sencliff for pirate slaves, Outskirts for Sibayad slaves (so the slave always has at least one option for lensing away, or using portal sources in dungeons/fleeting portals)
- Advanced magecuffs - possibly too broken. Must be crafted by a master smith. When used on a slave you own, they have 50% arcane spell failure until removed by the master, or the slave collar is also removed.

- Maybe owners can 'donate' their crafting points to slaves? That one needs balance checking but it feels thematic.
- as well as / instead of the slave caller, maybe a slave scrier (I'm torn on whether or not I like the slave caller - I don't like the mechanic, but I think it fulfills a need)

Slaves get some options too, be they loyal or rebellious:

- The slave collar can be 'used' at current. Edit the item so it has 30 or so charges. Every time it is used, it loses a charge - but it can only be used once every 19 real life hours. Certain tasks performed by the master increase this score back up to 30 (using a tool on the slaves or something, once per 4-10 rl hours). The master doesn't know how many charges the collar has.
- The slave questline is pretty cool, and should be kept. Maybe some extra quests in a slightly different vein might improve the experience.
- Make the slum caverns a proper slum for slaves to live in. Add a proper underculture that slaves can make full use of, with quarters and places to drink fungus broth and other RP-appropriate disgusting stuff. Let slaves embrace the downtrodden RP.
- Give slaves a bonus when guarding masters in battle (could be an AC bonus, or additional adventure XP)
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Re: Slavery System Feedback

Post by Cybren » Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:46 pm

To me it sorta seems like the problem with the slavery system is that it is rather trivially easy to escape, which means that people who want to roleplay a slave that finds their freedom through play are put in the weird position of having to turn down help for meta-narrative reasons, because the player hasn't actually gotten the experience they were hoping for. This necessitates all sorts of contrived mechanical hacks to keep the system functioning (how do you keep slaves in your possession on an island full of portals? uhhh the collar ALSO teleports!). I don't really know how to address the problems in the system, but I do know that the slavery system can sometimes lead to really weird situations, and, while this isn't really relevant to ways to address the topic, it kinda makes me ooc bummed out that the prevailing surface culture tends to be "slaves are almost as bad as slavers"

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Re: Slavery System Feedback

Post by sarithia » Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:04 pm

I'm late to the party, but I love the idea of turning the slave collars into a thing that have a DC that masters have to fund in order to fund in order to keep them active, etc, much like a quarters. I think not only will it re-enforce the concept that slaves are property, etc, but it might also in a sense creative RP other than the standard ransom and harbour.

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Borin Drakkmurl
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Re: Slavery System Feedback

Post by Borin Drakkmurl » Sun Apr 05, 2020 12:42 am

Mythic wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:41 pm
I dont personally believe that the mechanical slavery system is neccesary or needed to facilitate the RP that is going on. At least not with the current methods of "freeing slaves" or "capturing" them.
I only wanted to echo this.

I never quite understood why the slavery system was put in place, as I never really saw what it added to the table in terms of roleplay.

It always struck me as a mechanical addition that did not, in fact, add anything other than ooc gymnastics that, in the past, were easily worked through with roleplay and proper communication.

This being said, I will admit I was never really a fan of "slavery" or prisoner rp in the first place, not even, or specially not even when playing in the UD, so I am biased on this one.

The only proper sugestion or contribution I have to add to this discussion, however, is mostly a thematic one, that perhaps most people will find useless.

I would start by renaming the whole thing. So far, from what I have seen, a lot of the roleplay around this theme, for years now, has reflected mostly the ancient roman notion of slavery, where many of the captives would, very often, find themselves taking up highly skilled professions, like doctors and acountants (I know there was a whole lot of other horrible shit going on too, but you get my point.) Since, as so many other people have suggested, a lot of the "slaves" end up being very powerful, high leveled characters, this would make a little more sense.

Those pantless dudes we find in the Andunorian sewers? Those are slaves.

Jennifer Tightleatherpants, with a collar that no ammount of clothing can hide, binding her to the nefarious Xali'n'r'tmo'x X'au'w'yalhilili , however, is more akin to an indentured servant with a leash so long it snakes across the multi-verse, and is likely richer than some settlement leaders.

To sum up, and to try and put my own thoughts into order, I think the server would lose nothing if the system was just taken away. But if, as it is likely, it stays, it might very likely benefit from a make over.
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Re: Slavery System Feedback

Post by Emotionaloverload » Sun Apr 05, 2020 1:00 am

Borin Drakkmurl wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 12:42 am

To sum up, and to try and put my own thoughts into order, I think the server would lose nothing if the system was just taken away. But if, as it is likely, it stays, it might very likely benefit from a make over.
I very much disagree with this sentiment. I have played slaves before the collar was put in place and it was nearly impossible to get over the OOC element that bled into the rp. Characters were adamant that the slavery in question simply didn't exist. WYSIWYG. Just like, back in the day, you could describe altars as barricades however they were still altars and other players could consider them so because WYSIWYG, in spite of the description. Only a very small handful ever bothered to acknowledge the slavery and rp through it.

This made rping a slave a trial that it didn't have to be. The collar system has its own drawbacks but it doesn't call into doubt the entire concept.


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Re: Slavery System Feedback

Post by Hazard » Sun Apr 05, 2020 4:04 am

Exploding collars, so that the master can kill any slave at whim
:lol:

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Re: Slavery System Feedback

Post by Flower Power » Sun Apr 05, 2020 1:10 pm

Void wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 7:38 am
Chosen Son wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:41 am
Agreed, I fully think freeing slaves should be dangerous. In the way that entering into conflict with dangerous people should always be dangerous. But that does not address the need for there to be meaningful ways to interact with the slavery mechanic.

And if the mechanic governing slavery is ooc (a script and consent of the slave), it is not wrong to tie the mechanic governing liberation of that slave to something ooc as well(A script, and consent of the slave, for example). And so long as slavery is tied to, and governed by mechanics, and not simply roleplay, it is important that characters have meaningful ways to interact with that mechanic.
I'm pretty sure mechanic governing slavery is not OOC. It is just there to save you from hassle of sending a request to DM team and catching someone online to have this applied.

Scripted release beyohd whatever already exists on the server has higher potential for disastrous consequences than scripted collaring. The reason for that is that release requires a STORY and a script cannot provide it, so it requires DM supervision. A script will be act mechanically every time and people will simply exploit it.
I have a very serious issue with this sort of line of thinking in regards to the slavery system, because to me it suggests there's a significant and very unfortunate disconnect in people's perception of the relationship between the Slave Character/Master Character vs. the Slave Player/Master Player; that is to say - that people are forgetting that while the Slave Character might be subordinate to the Master Character, the Slave Player is in no way beholden to them at all.

Slavery is, on Arelith, a consensual position that requires a degree of trust and understanding between both parties on an OOC level in order to be enjoyable and to have any worth or merit on the server in the slightest. Inherent in the concept of consent is the fact that consent is not a static thing - it can be withdrawn at any time, for any reason. If a Slave Player is no longer enjoying the experience provided by the situation they find themselves in, or worse the pact between Slave Player and Master Player (spoken or otherwise) has somehow been sullied, the Slave Player should have the ability to remove themselves from that situation through means that are reasonably accessible. Full stop. Period.

A means for slaves to free themselves cannot be viewed as something that can be "gamed" or "exploited", because the ability to remove themselves from a consensual position of subordination should be viewed as their right as a player. You cannot force another player to remain in a situation they do not want to remain in just because you want them to. The very idea of that is, to put it mildly, kind of Snuggle a Bugbear up.
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Re: Slavery System Feedback

Post by JubJub » Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:09 pm

My only real issues is a small portion of slaves don't act as slaves once they get powerful or have super powerful masters, they start to walk about challenging folks. Which really kills the slave system. Why not just be an outcast then?

Or the system gets exploited where people want to come down and hang with their evil pals then come back up to the surface and want to simply say I was forced to do evil things like fight in the cage, so not my fault.

I have played a slave that was captured on the surface, and to be honest I found it a lot of fun. Adds a lot of unique rp, so the server should never do away with it. Freeing slaves should be challenging, but the rp involved is also fun, But like outcasts the slave system gets gamed at times which really can ruin things.

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Re: Slavery System Feedback

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:24 pm

Slavery is, on Arelith, a consensual position that requires a degree of trust and understanding between both parties on an OOC level in order to be enjoyable and to have any worth or merit on the server in the slightest. Inherent in the concept of consent is the fact that consent is not a static thing - it can be withdrawn at any time, for any reason. If a Slave Player is no longer enjoying the experience provided by the situation they find themselves in, or worse the pact between Slave Player and Master Player (spoken or otherwise) has somehow been sullied, the Slave Player should have the ability to remove themselves from that situation through means that are reasonably accessible. Full stop. Period.

A means for slaves to free themselves cannot be viewed as something that can be "gamed" or "exploited", because the ability to remove themselves from a consensual position of subordination should be viewed as their right as a player. You cannot force another player to remain in a situation they do not want to remain in just because you want them to. The very idea of that is, to put it mildly, kind of Snuggle a Bugbear up.
There are a few things I want to say about this position.

Thing 1) If as a player, you are having serious, deep, and honest problems with this concept - if it is genuinly making you miserable, and the pc/player who is your characters owner is being utterly unreasonable? Come to us and we'll see if we can sort something out.
But honestly I don't think I've ever had this be a serious issue. The worst regular slave issue we have/had is slave owners going AWOL and leaving slaves without rp. In which case they can ask us to remove the characters ownership, and said slave pc can either persue freedom, or find someone else. Whatever. Also if the slave owner doesn't log in for two weeks, the name automaticaly drops off the collar. So just waiting it out fixes the problem.

Thing 2. Actions. Have. Consequences.
The Slave pre-amble is so large and solemn because it's a big, big, big, big consquence. Imagine if I rolled up a LE drow, and I played him and got to level 30. Then I discover that I'm not allowed to do surface stuff like I want to, that I can't gallivant in Myon. Should I then be able to click a mechanical option that turns me into a LG sun elf so I can chill out there next?
Or if I play a pc and take the Pirate Ink tattoo, and then suddenly find people in Cordor hate me. Should I then go 'oooh, I'm not enjoying this any more. I know I willingly rped keelhauling 20 people, but everyones being a bit mean to me now. Can I make it so everyone is nice to me now?'
When you take the slave collar, you must be awear that it is a Big Deal. Or should be. We basically scream it in your face.

'Why is there a mechanical option/anyone should be able to drop out of the mechanical sitaution.'

That's sweet idea, but here's the issue.
Already on slave characters, you have the following conversation occuring with a fair amount of the time.
'Hi I'm bob, Jon has enslaved me.'
'Are you looking for freedom Bob?'
'No... Jon says if I even think of that he'll tear out my eyes and make me eat them.'
'HA! Then you are a WILLING slave! You must LIKE Jon! Destroy him!'
'But... I... the slave quest is so difficult...'
'Alright, you have a little time. BUT NEXT TIME WE SEE YOU IF YOU ARN'T FREE WE WILL KILL YOU!!!'

Without the mechanics, or sometimes with mechanics easily slipped out of, the conversation would be more like'

''Hi I'm bob, Jon has enslaved me.'
'Are you looking for freedom Bob?'
'No, Jon says if I think of it he'll tear out my eyes and eat them'
'I'ts ok Bob, let me pull a magical imaginary thing out of my bum... and now you are free.'
'uh, I'm... actually not free..' [tell] I'm enjoying this rp so...]
'YOU ARN'T FREE? OMG YOURE A WILLING SLAVE KILL'

People looking for a quick 'win' basically. Or not willing to accept people rping fear, pain, ect.

Also, you know, The only mechanical thing that slavery really does - the major mechanical thing, is the ability to yoink someone to you. You don't /have/ to actually listen or go along with anything your characters owner does or says. The worst they can do is kill your character, and if they do that over and over and over again - then thats time for a report.
I'll admit, I wouldn't consider the above great rp. But if you're so utterly and completely miserable in the situation, then it is something to keep in mind.
This too shall pass.

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Re: Slavery System Feedback

Post by Hazard » Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:48 pm

JubJub wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:09 pm
... a small portion of slaves don't act as slaves once they get powerful or have super powerful masters, they start to walk about challenging folks.
This.

I notice this a lot.

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Re: Slavery System Feedback

Post by Ork » Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:31 pm

Report it. If it strikes you as off, report it and move on. Leave that judgement to the DMs if it fits within the theme of Andunor. DMs have a lot of tools to coach players that would come as aggressive from a fellow player. Hell. I remember one time DM Wish messaged my drow with the simple line of "why is your drow traveling with surfacers?" Changed my world.

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Re: Slavery System Feedback

Post by Nitro » Sun Apr 05, 2020 8:36 pm

I'm finding it a bit strange how many people let slaves with good builds walk all over them when you can just fork out 1k to summon them to a slave pit where they can't use magic or reach you in melee and you're free to throw whatever ranged things you want at them until cowed.

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Re: Slavery System Feedback

Post by Aeralad » Sun Apr 05, 2020 9:47 pm

Well for the sake of discussion I'd say that the drow in Myon or the pirate in Cordor might be considered setting breaking, but a slave becoming free would not.
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