Slavery System Feedback

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Void
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Re: Slavery System Feedback

Post by Void » Fri Mar 27, 2020 5:43 pm

Drowboy wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:28 pm
since the Drow has a higher ECL.
No gifts? You people really live like this?
Not taking ECL-affecting gifts is a valid tactic. Or taking only one ECL gift. I mean the difference doesn't look like much at a glance, but when you play ECL+1 or ECL+0 after ECL+2, it is very noticeable, especially at early levels.
http://wiki.arelith.com/ECL
Chosen Son wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:32 pm
Do slaves not take two +2 ability gifts, bringing them to ecl parity with drow?
Gifts are optional.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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Re: Slavery System Feedback

Post by Emotionaloverload » Fri Mar 27, 2020 5:49 pm

I do very much like the idea of collars having menus for Masters to add boons like bank accounts (currently, Masters just rely on OoC trust for slaves that are expected to pay regularly) or decreases (I'm wary on stat and skill decreases but movement speed could be one that I can agree with).

I don't think that commoner being mandatory for slaves is needed. Not only does that narrow concepts and uses but it suggests that the psychology around being oppressed is strictly based on strength/physical power which is untrue.

To the point of needing space for slave stories, I would love to see more than just the option for Runaways. Yes, they can have hideouts in the sewers (Cordor and UD both, maybe) but I would like to see space for those that have accepted their position and corresponding boons (Maybe city storage?). This will also help separate spy/infiltrator slaves and 'good' slaves prompting a few more steps in rp to gain trust above or below.


I do a lot of prep beforehand when rolling a slave character to ensure that there is a Master lined up and we both understand the general direction we are going in. It is a big responsibility on both sides so I am always pro more restrictions on slavers so that it isn't taken as a hobby. I haven't seen a lot of hobbyist slaves however if this is a problem perhaps we might consider restriction there as well (rpr or reward?)

I like reading everyone's thoughts on this. Thank you!

-S
Formerly; Echo Hemlocke-Ralkai, Joshua Colt, Namil Evanara, Elanor Shortwick, Sawyer Brook, Kaylessa Dree, Sines Oliver Selakiir, Birgitta Birdie Swordhill, Bella Weartherbee, Arael Laceflower, Corbin, Rupert Silveroak, Hadi the Slave and others.

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The GrumpyCat
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Re: Slavery System Feedback

Post by The GrumpyCat » Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:40 pm

My concern about bank accounts is several fold

Firstly very much constrains the slave and is possibly a HUGE negative, but possibly not one of any impact dependent on your master. I mean this sort of thing is nice in theory, but only if used. I'll expand on that if asked.

Secondly I worry it would encourage IG slavery actions (by which I mean attempts to colar pcs) for the wrong reasons. Which is to say, people would go slaving and try to take pc slaves not because they want the rp, but because they want access to their bank accounts.

Thirdly (and this isn't a huge deal but it is a thing) it would be a massive dissincentive to existing players to take the collar. (Yup not only is your charcter subservient to mine, AND they loose all their IG property. They also loose their bank account!)
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

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Re: Slavery System Feedback

Post by Drowboy » Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:48 pm

If being a slave takes out your bank account you would 100% have to remove current pc slaves from the mix and ONLY allow prisoner collars.

In fact, the easier alternative to it would be to just delete the option to be a slave at all.
Archnon wrote: I like the idea of slaves and slavery.

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Re: Slavery System Feedback

Post by xanrael » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:44 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong on this portion of factions, but I think you can assign dues for members? If so and the owner/slave wanted to simulate financial control the master could make a faction with high dues and the slaves could join it. I don't know if it auto boots broke members which could throw a wrench in that idea.

As a third party I don't really care what the bank account of another PC is and a lot of it is RP based. For example you can make clothing look like a gold lined and glittering arch-mage robe or a bunch of rags without modifying the mechanical effects. Likewise the wording used changes the impression of whether a slave is purchasing something using their own funds or their owner ordered them to buy something and gave them funds for it.

Overall I think slaves (regardless of race) can provide a useful lower class for the UD. Sometimes too many want to be the star of the show instead of a more supportive role, especially when you mix in some evil themes.

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DM Rex
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Re: Slavery System Feedback

Post by DM Rex » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:29 pm

Right now dues and payments for factions aren't working as intended.

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Re: Slavery System Feedback

Post by Emotionaloverload » Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:14 am

After multiple PMs over this, I will concede that the bank accounts situation shouldn't be direct access/no personal account because this is too exploit-y and messes with the Epic Sacrifice considerations that I didn't think of before. Masters will just have to make slaves accountable for income through rp.


After today's discussions, I do think that a good change should be to slavers and buying slaves, not so much the slaves themselves. Perhaps slavers need to registrar with the guild to be able to own slaves which comes with a tax that increases with slave level (perhaps because Runaways would have a chance of spawning slave catcher NPCs that are from the guild) and amount of slaves. But maybe slaves that have been owned by the same Master for long enough see a small decrease to give a boon to good Master's.

Maybe also increase the cost of slaves. Nothing crazy, just enough that slaving is given more thought. I would like to see a negative placed on slavers for owning slaves but today's debates had plenty that didn't like an alignment restriction. Thoughts?

-S
Formerly; Echo Hemlocke-Ralkai, Joshua Colt, Namil Evanara, Elanor Shortwick, Sawyer Brook, Kaylessa Dree, Sines Oliver Selakiir, Birgitta Birdie Swordhill, Bella Weartherbee, Arael Laceflower, Corbin, Rupert Silveroak, Hadi the Slave and others.

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The GrumpyCat
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Re: Slavery System Feedback

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:26 am

Random Thought-
Maybe slave collar locks could, in part, act a little like quarter locks? Slavers would have to pay to keep a high dc on them? The more slaves you own, (and the more securty you want on those slaves) the more you have to pay and/or the more a slave has to 'earn' their keep?

Not sure about alignment restrictions, but maybe a PC somewhere that lists (current active) slavers and (current active) slaves. (If a pc doesn't log on for two weeks their name vanishes until they log on again.) This would allow the 'good guys' I suppose to know who is enslaved and who owns who? Maybe again - an added tax could be paid to the Slave Master to hide certain names? Maybe the npc is only avaiable to surfacers if they pay a bribe? (1000 gold to see a list of names. 100 gold per IG month to have a slave's name hidden on that list ect).

Just throwing out some ideas.

ADDENDUM:
With the collar lock - possibly it can be picked by other people, but only with the slaves (players) permission.
This too shall pass.

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Izaich
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Re: Slavery System Feedback

Post by Izaich » Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:09 am

One idea I had was that collars could have a ridiculously high Open Lock DC, like 200. Over time, that DC slowly decreases. A slave owner could invest gold to refresh the DC. This has the added benefit of giving slaves a way out of ownership from inactive masters.

Exordius
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Re: Slavery System Feedback

Post by Exordius » Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:36 am

Basically, you've met an IG equivalent of a cultist, sect member or a flat earther. Feel free to react accordingly. It could be fun.
I agree on the flat earth'ers and cultists but not all religious sects are dumb or illogical.

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Re: Slavery System Feedback

Post by CptJonas » Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:40 am

Izaich wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:09 am
One idea I had was that collars could have a ridiculously high Open Lock DC, like 200. Over time, that DC slowly decreases. A slave owner could invest gold to refresh the DC. This has the added benefit of giving slaves a way out of ownership from inactive masters.
This would be nice...but ultra hard to implement so neither of sides can cheese it out...

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Re: Slavery System Feedback

Post by Ork » Sat Mar 28, 2020 3:02 am

Izaich wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:09 am
One idea I had was that collars could have a ridiculously high Open Lock DC, like 200. Over time, that DC slowly decreases. A slave owner could invest gold to refresh the DC. This has the added benefit of giving slaves a way out of ownership from inactive masters.
EDIT: this was a mispost but, I do love Izaich's idea.
Last edited by Ork on Sat Mar 28, 2020 3:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

Chosen Son
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Re: Slavery System Feedback

Post by Chosen Son » Sat Mar 28, 2020 3:17 am

Currently if an assassin kills a settlement leader, completing a contract and using a guild knife, it triggers elections and all exiles are cleared. I’d like a similar system where good aligned characters can use a very expensive item (250k+) to break all the chains associated with that specific slaver pc.

At the moment dealing with slavery is beyond frustrating. You cannot stage slave liberation raids, like good aligned PCs normally do, or anything similar, but are left rather impotent in a situation where you are often expected ic to free characters that chose ooc to become slaves, and often have a storyline in mind they want to experience as slaves before freeing themselves. I’d personally never accept a slave collar on any of my PCs without first verifying with my characters allies ooc if they are willing to deal with a storyline like that or if it would be plain unfun for them.

Yes, slavery should be significant, but it needs more ways to interact with it meaningfully. And while from an ig perspective slavery should be an hellish ordeal, being traumatic for those it effects, on an ooc level it should not be frustrating, unfun, or cripplingly penalizing for those involved.

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Re: Slavery System Feedback

Post by Void » Sat Mar 28, 2020 4:20 am

Chosen Son wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 3:17 am
At the moment dealing with slavery is beyond frustrating. You cannot stage slave liberation raids, like good aligned PCs normally do, or anything similar, but are left rather impotent in a situation where you are often expected ic to free characters that chose ooc to become slaves, and often have a storyline in mind they want to experience as slaves before freeing themselves.
Because PCs are way too powerful, allowing slave raids would mean the end of slavery system in two days. They'll simply liberate the hell out of everybody. That's why the collar is nearly impossible to break.

Same goes for lockpicking the collar. There will be a character functionally equivalent to a walking lockpick who will be go to solution to deal with slave collars. Which does not make a very good story.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

Exordius
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Re: Slavery System Feedback

Post by Exordius » Sat Mar 28, 2020 4:40 am

Slave liberation rp and or raids should be allowed but with restrictions and with dm presence as is the case for normal raids.

Chosen Son
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Re: Slavery System Feedback

Post by Chosen Son » Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:45 am

Void wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 4:20 am
Chosen Son wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 3:17 am
At the moment dealing with slavery is beyond frustrating. You cannot stage slave liberation raids, like good aligned PCs normally do, or anything similar, but are left rather impotent in a situation where you are often expected ic to free characters that chose ooc to become slaves, and often have a storyline in mind they want to experience as slaves before freeing themselves.
Because PCs are way too powerful, allowing slave raids would mean the end of slavery system in two days. They'll simply liberate the hell out of everybody. That's why the collar is nearly impossible to break.

Same goes for lockpicking the collar. There will be a character functionally equivalent to a walking lockpick who will be go to solution to deal with slave collars. Which does not make a very good story.
Slave raids already happen, and are allowed. Thats how most slaves are obtained. I am advocating the opposite.

If you read my post fully before replying, you would have read that I was not advocating a blanket "pvp someone and free their slaves." system. That would indeed trivialize the slavery system.

What I suggested was adding an item that costs as much to buy, as slaves buying freedom costs normally which I think was 250k, but might have been 500k. In doing so it would add another tool, however expensive, to the arsenal of players who interact with slavery, and look to free slaves.

There should be a way for characters to directly fight slavery. At the moment there is not, short of kill bashing the slaver, and enough of their allies, enough times that its not worth their time or effort to keep the slave. And at a cost of 250-500k per liberated slave, and actually having to track down and kill the owner, there would be real cost and effort attached to it.

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Re: Slavery System Feedback

Post by Chosen Son » Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:08 am

There need to be meaningful ways to interact with slavery. In the same way that there need to be meaningful ways to interact with other server features. A good story in my mind, is one where all involved are able to make meaningful decisions, and take meaningful action. The slavery system as is, fails on that part.

I also dont have a problem with "someone tracked down in 15 minutes and killed." Enslaving allies of powerful characters should be very dangerous. One should be forced to take very serious precautions to avoid retaliation if someone with allies like that is enslaved. Life should not be able to continue on as normal if they make enemies of that sort.

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Re: Slavery System Feedback

Post by Void » Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:29 am

Chosen Son wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:08 am
There need to be meaningful ways to interact with slavery. In the same way that there need to be meaningful ways to interact with other server features. A good story in my mind, is one where all involved are able to make meaningful decisions, and take meaningful action. The slavery system as is, fails on that part.

I also dont have a problem with "someone tracked down in 15 minutes and killed." Enslaving allies of powerful characters should be very dangerous. One should be forced to take very serious precautions to avoid retaliation if someone with allies like that is enslaved. Life should not be able to continue on as normal if they make enemies of that sort.
The issue is not "powerful allies", but a random player turning into a nearly instant OOC-solution for all things slavery. That's the likely outcome of slavery being gated by a script. People will find a way, and this will become a non-obstacle.

Additionally, slavery is a system and by default it would be bigger than something a single player character can possibly hope to topple. Having ton of cash and high level alone does not make you powerful to the point where you're invulnerable and can't be touched ("Do you have friends and loved ones? It would be a shame if something happened to them").

An interesting twist to the idea would be to have people who save slaves targeted by slaver's guild assassins. Very very powerful ones, the kind you likely won't defeat.

But once again... without DM supervision that will likely to degrade into some nonsense as well.

So the best bet would be to probably poke DM team in individual cases. I'm not sure how arelith deals with player requests though. Haven't ever submitted one myself...
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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Re: Slavery System Feedback

Post by Chosen Son » Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:41 am

Agreed, I fully think freeing slaves should be dangerous. In the way that entering into conflict with dangerous people should always be dangerous. But that does not address the need for there to be meaningful ways to interact with the slavery mechanic.

And if the mechanic governing slavery is ooc (a script and consent of the slave), it is not wrong to tie the mechanic governing liberation of that slave to something ooc as well(A script, and consent of the slave, for example). And so long as slavery is tied to, and governed by mechanics, and not simply roleplay, it is important that characters have meaningful ways to interact with that mechanic.

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Re: Slavery System Feedback

Post by Void » Sat Mar 28, 2020 7:38 am

Chosen Son wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:41 am
Agreed, I fully think freeing slaves should be dangerous. In the way that entering into conflict with dangerous people should always be dangerous. But that does not address the need for there to be meaningful ways to interact with the slavery mechanic.

And if the mechanic governing slavery is ooc (a script and consent of the slave), it is not wrong to tie the mechanic governing liberation of that slave to something ooc as well(A script, and consent of the slave, for example). And so long as slavery is tied to, and governed by mechanics, and not simply roleplay, it is important that characters have meaningful ways to interact with that mechanic.
I'm pretty sure mechanic governing slavery is not OOC. It is just there to save you from hassle of sending a request to DM team and catching someone online to have this applied.

Scripted release beyohd whatever already exists on the server has higher potential for disastrous consequences than scripted collaring. The reason for that is that release requires a STORY and a script cannot provide it, so it requires DM supervision. A script will be act mechanically every time and people will simply exploit it.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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Hazard
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Re: Slavery System Feedback

Post by Hazard » Sat Mar 28, 2020 8:16 am

My best experience with being a slave was one in which I didn't even wear the 'permanent' collar and just the prisoner one. I stayed a couple months and it was great RP and very immersive for me and traumatizing for my elf. I loved every second of it and it was magical beyond description!

It wasn't until I got back to the surface that the RP started to sour, when people started saying things like "She can just take it off anytime she wants, she's a willing slave." and so on. I saw this as metagaming and pretty poor sportsmanship. Never once did anyone in the Underdark dismiss our roleplay in that manner, in fact the opposite I got many compliments both IC and OOC on how my slave was being played! The Drow loved to have an elf act like a real elf would in that situation and the secret mechanics behind the collar didn't need to be brought into the story at all and shouldn't have mattered.

I think you should not be able to tell the difference between the collars to avoid situations like this. All slaves should be met with the same suspicions and pity.

I also think there should be a third option on the other end of the spectrum. Sometimes there are characters who want to enslave someone, but they want to have complete power over that person .. So the best method? Don't enslave them. Because once you slap a collar on that person, anyone can start summoning them (which is a great mechanic for a slave class of people!) but not so great for a villain that wants to totally own someone for themselves. Maybe an even more permanent collar could be introduced that is private and responds only to one master, but there is no 'quest' to have it removed. The privately owned collar can only be removed by the master or if the master is inactive for an appropriate amount of time.

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Re: Slavery System Feedback

Post by Kuma » Sat Mar 28, 2020 9:46 am

Hazard wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 8:16 am
the secret mechanics behind the collar didn't need to be brought into the story at all and shouldn't have mattered.
they are visually distinct collars from an IC perspective, but it's very weird for characters to spout off with absolute 100% authoritativeness that "a prisoner collar can be broken". one's just meant for long term enslavement, one for imprisonment, transport, or something else. the only real difference is a lack of a named owner. sure, 100% of prisoners who tried to break their collar succeeded, and you could collate that data authoritatively in an IC manner but;

1: that would be very boring and disingenuous
and
2: i will bet you my shoes that nobody who's claimed "prisoners can break their collars" has presented it in any way that didnt look like a wiki quote

i'm very sorry you had to experience that, people need to learn what bending rp for story is again it seems

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The GrumpyCat
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Re: Slavery System Feedback

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:51 pm

Chosen Son wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 3:17 am
Currently if an assassin kills a settlement leader, completing a contract and using a guild knife, it triggers elections and all exiles are cleared. I’d like a similar system where good aligned characters can use a very expensive item (250k+) to break all the chains associated with that specific slaver pc.

At the moment dealing with slavery is beyond frustrating. You cannot stage slave liberation raids, like good aligned PCs normally do, or anything similar, but are left rather impotent in a situation where you are often expected ic to free characters that chose ooc to become slaves, and often have a storyline in mind they want to experience as slaves before freeing themselves. I’d personally never accept a slave collar on any of my PCs without first verifying with my characters allies ooc if they are willing to deal with a storyline like that or if it would be plain unfun for them.

Yes, slavery should be significant, but it needs more ways to interact with it meaningfully. And while from an ig perspective slavery should be an hellish ordeal, being traumatic for those it effects, on an ooc level it should not be frustrating, unfun, or cripplingly penalizing for those involved.
A few things on this

You can stage slave liberation raids. Send us a PM with your quest idea, and hopefully someone will pick it up! And you can rescue some NPC slaves! Not a problem!

I think trying to ooc 'force' your enjoyment of rp on anyone is always a little dangerous. This is like saying 'I'd never play a Paladin without checking with all my friends first. I think we should have a power for Blackguards to enable them to -force- Paladins to fall.' I'm sorry you arn't enjoying the rp someone else has entered into but ultimatly that's the way it goes. You can't 'win' every fight you want to.
Your dagger idea is interesting - but ultimatly I forsee it leading to a scnario where Bob (slave) and Joe are having fun with the system, enjoying the story.
Well Meaning Henry kills Joe, and forcibly freed Bob
Bob is annoyed because he was really enjoying the rp and now has had that snatched from him
Joe Respawns, talks to Bob on discord, they arrange for bob to be 'captured' again, and trhe collar to be put back on.
Nothing much changes except you're annoyed you have to spend the gold, Bob is annoyed he got his rp forced on him, Joe is annoyed he got killed.

I do understand the frustration, I do. But this is like, let's say... lets say you had a concept to play a... monk of the drunken master style. A monk who was traumatized by... IDK... the death of his pet hamster, and dealt with that by drink, but this also made him a cool fighter, if a b it morose. That's a cool concept right? Yeah. So what right do I, as another player, have the right to wave a magic wand in front of your face and go 'OK NOW U ARE FIXED ALL YOUR TRAUMA IS GONE YOU WILL NOW BE HAPPY ALL THE TIME!'

Or if I played a blind character, should another character be able to go to you and enforce 'No! I make you see now!'

Ultimatly the story of the player, both to become a slave and, at least to a degree, to leave slavery should be at least a little in their hands. Not neccesarly 100%, but they need to have some power over it.

I mean I do agree that it'd be nice to give allies more ways of helping slaves, sure. But I'm not sure that is the way to go.
This too shall pass.

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Re: Slavery System Feedback

Post by Mythic » Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:41 pm

Coming from somebody who has mostly worked "vs" the slavery system, And having played a few Underdark characters in close proximity to slave characters, I dont personally believe that the mechanical slavery system is neccesary or needed to facilitate the RP that is going on. At least not with the current methods of "freeing slaves" or "capturing" them.

The collars themselves cost gold right? And the cost to remove a collar from a player is HALF A MILLION GOLD - 500,000
Which is a ludicrous amount. For one person, It doesent scale for level, or for how long somebody has been a slave, And thats literally as soon as the collar is on, its 500,000 to remove it. I cant tell you how much gold Myself and others have spent, because of this ridiculous cost.

The actual RP can be done without a Collar which means that RP your taking elsewhere can instantly be interrupted by -Anyone- Who knows your characters name, and that they have a collar. ^ The Slave calling system needs to be changed to only be useable by the master of said slave, and/or people who are Tagged with it. AKA, set permissions ala Factions.

I've seen "Spy" slaves, on the surface, Pretending and "begging for help" then backstabbing people, And there's also been slaves/people getting collared, to Spy in the Underdark.

The Slavery system, should not be used for Spying, It's for Slaves. There's nothing saying a Slave shouldent or couldent be coerced or persuaded into selling information, But purposefully twisting the mechanics of the collar for spying purposes, It negating the impact and lessening the RP that can be had around actual Slave characters.

But, Mostly those are my gripes, the actual RP is fun and props to people who are using it and enjoying it responsibly

And these are what I would change, to improse the system.

Drop the price of Freeing people from collars, but also make it a -willing- system, So you cant just poke somebody and get their collar removed. There should be RP around it
^
With this, A quest chain for "good characters" to be able to help or negate the cost would be beneficial, making it somewhat of a secret, Possibly tied in with the current FOIG method of freeing people.

Make it so that prisoner collars do not automatically get turned into slave collars if people talk to the wrong NPC (Slavemaster NPCs)

Give Slave characters a way to stop themselves being pulled away, even if it's like a consumable item with a cooldown on how long it lasts. (Even "safe" zones, so if they are trying to hide/run, they can use those)

A few more quarters for Slave-characters, this in general, there's not many, for Sibiyad and sencliff too.

ADD NPC SLAVES - This is probably the biggest part I could suggest, Make them an associate so you can talk through them, Equip them with CLOTH, not armour, for Visual reasons. And so that there is a way to have "Slave/Master" RP, Without having to convince your friend, Or capture players and hope they will accept a collar.

This would have more benefits as well, As different systems can be put in place, such as "re-capture runaways", heck add two guilds, a Slaver and a Chainbreaker guild, one for Evil and one for Goodies, PC slaves would then be a much rarer commodity and valuable, But also stop or at least reduce the amount of PvP for slaves there would be.

NPC servants as a whole, hireable like Henchman, Would be interesting for RP. But for Sibiyad/Sencliff/Underdark, Making them into slaves (Even tying it into the lasso system) will make for an additional source of interest, and keep player retention.
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Re: Slavery System Feedback

Post by Algol » Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:46 pm

Mythic wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:41 pm

Give Slave characters a way to stop themselves being pulled away, even if it's like a consumable item with a cooldown on how long it lasts. (Even "safe" zones, so if they are trying to hide/run, they can use those)
A place like that already exists. Although I'm not sure if it's possible for non-slave good charaters to reach it.
Last edited by Algol on Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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