Alternative Methods for Access to Award Races

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Void
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Re: Alternative Methods for Access to Award Races

Post by Void » Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:25 am

Quidix wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:43 am
  • Make sacrifice rewards based time 'ticks' rather than level - this means no points for grinding and rushing passed others in pursuit of the roll
Encourages idling. Also it would be possible to multibox your way to the victory.

I think any time-based solutions are a downgrade from what we have now. Application based rewrds > Rpr based rewards > Level based rewards > No rewards > Time-based rewards.
Huschpfusch wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:14 am
functionalities traditionally assumed with the role of DM.
I think the player should never assume role of DM, simply because DM is omnipotent, and the player is not. It is overstepping bounds and can lead to very disastrous and OOC behavior.

I recall an accident on another server where a player had a habit of trolling others by spawning level 20 vampires in low level areas, talking through them to travelers, then narrating the thing from the bushes while invisible. It was complete OOC behavior, plus it turned out the guy was necromancer druid to the boot (lore breach).

Better to stick with acting out the role you picked and let storytelling emerge. When the role involves creating mass events, sure, go for it. But if you want to be a DM, you should send an application to DM team.

At least that's how I see it.
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The GrumpyCat
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Re: Alternative Methods for Access to Award Races

Post by The GrumpyCat » Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:32 am

Ultimatly when we look at the system my aim is this

- Major awards won't be any more gated behind RPR than they are already. A 20 rpr can still get a major award just fine with enough time/effort/ect.
- But awards will be easier and quicker to get if you have a high rpr, and are a good roleplayer.

Let's cut the mess guys.

RPR is not a perfect system. It never has been, it never will be. People slip beneath the cracks. People perhaps get it who shouldn't sometimes. People who are great rpers just don't get noticed, and it is, ultimatly, subjective.

But what it is, over all, is a way of encouraging people to act a certain way, to roleplay a certain way which we believe is healthy and fun for the server as a whole. And it does that well in my opinion.

And if we want to keep 'encouraging' that behavior, - and we do - Then we have two choices. Carrot or Stick. The more we take away the carrot, the more we have to apply the stick.

I don't want to run a server with a lot of 'stick' to it. I find that, for the most part, rather un-fun and miserable.

So RPR, and other judgements of rolepaly, will continue to be awarded. If anything, whilst I don't want it to gate off awards, I would like it to have a little more weight.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

Aeralad
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Re: Alternative Methods for Access to Award Races

Post by Aeralad » Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:53 pm

Void wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:25 am

I think the player should never assume role of DM, simply because DM is omnipotent, and the player is not. It is overstepping bounds and can lead to very disastrous and OOC behavior.

I recall an accident on another server where a player had a habit of trolling others by spawning level 20 vampires in low level areas, talking through them to travelers, then narrating the thing from the bushes while invisible. It was complete OOC behavior, plus it turned out the guy was necromancer druid to the boot (lore breach).

Better to stick with acting out the role you picked and let storytelling emerge. When the role involves creating mass events, sure, go for it. But if you want to be a DM, you should send an application to DM team.

At least that's how I see it.
Just because someone was bad doesn't mean someone else can't be good.
I am the champion
When they write my story they're gonna say that I did it for the glory
But don't think that I did it for the fame I did it for the love of the game

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Huschpfusch
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Re: Alternative Methods for Access to Award Races

Post by Huschpfusch » Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:06 pm

Void wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:25 am
Huschpfusch wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:14 am
functionalities traditionally assumed with the role of DM.
I think the player should never assume role of DM, simply because DM is omnipotent, and the player is not. It is overstepping bounds and can lead to very disastrous and OOC behavior.

I recall an accident on another server where a player had a habit of trolling others by spawning level 20 vampires in low level areas, talking through them to travelers, then narrating the thing from the bushes while invisible. It was complete OOC behavior, plus it turned out the guy was necromancer druid to the boot (lore breach).

Better to stick with acting out the role you picked and let storytelling emerge. When the role involves creating mass events, sure, go for it. But if you want to be a DM, you should send an application to DM team.

At least that's how I see it.
If you wanted to maintain the traditional cut between player and DM responsiblities on a large-scale persistant world,
you would have to hire a lot of DMs to maintain that tabletop ratio of supervised storytelling quality. Which is unrealistic.
There's already an underlying unspoken social agreement in the traditional DD sessions be it at a table or through online means.
So for a DD-based persistant world that finds itself unable to upscale staff numbers to catch up to rising player numbers,
the next reasonable thing to do would be to draw upon that unspoken underlying social agreement and significantly upscale
player responsibility in regards to DM-unsupervised pc interactions. (means making the RPR Gygax quote the default mindset)
As for the sample you provided - that sort of lowbie trolling is precisely the crappy player behavior that a scenic mind set focused on overall enjoyment - as described in the Gygax quote - guards against.
And as an anecdote: I heard a pretty similar story happened on Arelith, where a higher lvl spellcaster repeatedly trolled lowbies
shamelessly claiming he was providing RP-opportunities. Needless to say that deluded player got permabanned eventually.
"Oh look, an unidentified magical wand - let`s just see what it does by randomly using it in battle!"

Void
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Re: Alternative Methods for Access to Award Races

Post by Void » Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:32 pm

Huschpfusch wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:06 pm
If you wanted to maintain the traditional cut between player and DM responsiblities on a large-scale persistant world,
you ....
I believe that arelith works fine most of the time as self-regulating server, when people stick to the roles. There are folks going about their business, merchants, guards, actual settlement heads going about their business, and it works as is, without anyone trying to pretend being a DM.

When a player starts pushing boundaries and attempts to be something they're not, that's introducing chaos into already working sandbox.

Organize events, sure, lectures, tourneys and so on. But for the love of cthulhu... you are not a DM, so do it within confines of your character's role. And if you want to be a DM, you can apply for a DM role.
viewtopic.php?f=23&p=220151#p220151
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Aeralad
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Re: Alternative Methods for Access to Award Races

Post by Aeralad » Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:38 pm

Void wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:32 pm

I believe that arelith works fine most of the time as self-regulating server, when people stick to the roles. There are folks going about their business, merchants, guards, actual settlement heads going about their business, and it works as is, without anyone trying to pretend being a DM.

When a player starts pushing boundaries and attempts to be something they're not, that's introducing chaos into already working sandbox.

Organize events, sure, lectures, tourneys and so on. But for the love of cthulhu... you are not a DM, so do it within confines of your character's role. And if you want to be a DM, you can apply for a DM role.
viewtopic.php?f=23&p=220151#p220151
wait wait wait why aren't you encouraging innovation?
I am the champion
When they write my story they're gonna say that I did it for the glory
But don't think that I did it for the fame I did it for the love of the game

Seven Sons of Sin
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Re: Alternative Methods for Access to Award Races

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:23 pm

Void wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:15 pm
fading wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:43 am
Well, there you go, that's what this whole thing is about. There are different ways to enjoy Arelith, some are conductive to awards, some aren't. If sticking to a single character and heavily RPing is a valid way of experiencing Arelith, why isn't it being rewarded?
Isn't thsi what RPR rating is for?

You can't really make a script to evaluate RP quality, becuase script has no brain.
Hence we have current gacha system.
Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:49 pm
The greatest folly of Arelithian playerbase is the belief that to tell a certain story necessitates a certain playable race.
That belief is one hundred percent correct.
There are stories where you HAVE to be a member of a certain race or you won't be able to tell them.

Among the characteristics of your character race (or species) probably has most long term impact, as it defines the foundation of your character to extreme degree. Society, upbringing, outside influences, tendencies, etc.

Tell me a story that depends on race.

I will tell you the same story that is not of that race.
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Void
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Re: Alternative Methods for Access to Award Races

Post by Void » Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:53 pm

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:23 pm
Tell me a story that depends on race.
You're a drow priestess of Lolth, vying for power....

----------

Races come with their specific lore, hurdles, perks, disadvantages, culture and acquaintances. And there are stories where elements provided by the race became important to a degree where removing the race removes foundation of the story entirely.

You can't pretend that "race never matters". It is simply untrue. Experiences specific to one race are very often forever locked from members of another race, so the choice of the race matters.
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TimeAdept
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Re: Alternative Methods for Access to Award Races

Post by TimeAdept » Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:37 pm

You are a human priestess of Gargauth, vying for power. The church of Gargauth is treacherous, and self serving. It encourages betrayal and backstabbing, and rewards those who do so without being caught. The Church is often organized into small sects and cells throughout society, and these sects and cells compete both externally and internally, leading to a web to intrigue and deceit that just as often entangles those who create them as those they seek to catch.

You are a human priestess of Asmodeus, vying for power. The church of Asmodeus is labyrinthine, rigid in structure but rife with ways for the clever to outwit the dim. The Church is large, and well organized, but ultimately the fashion of the Church is to wear whatever trappings are necessary for you to please your superiors, while plotting their downfall with hidden allies - who may be attempting to do the same to you.

I'm being a little facetious here - race can matter, but its importance is very often overstated by those who want it as a reason for the exotic or 'special' races to be more freely available. I think everyone would agree there are concepts that are *best* represented by certain races, such as Drow, Dwarves, Orcs. But for ones that are "dragons" "vampires" "rakshasa" "half fiends", these are where people tend to balk.

Void
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Re: Alternative Methods for Access to Award Races

Post by Void » Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:59 pm

TimeAdept wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:37 pm
You are a human priestess of Gargauth, vying for power. The
Not even close. Details matter.

Grab "Drow of the Underdark", read it, and now remember that ALL of it is part of the story I mentioned. There's also matter of tests of Lolth, possibility of being turned into drider upon failure, and the nature of the mad goddess herself, which is drow exclusive. Don't forget about setting itself, which is Underdark, things like Faerzress, unique drow crafts, long lifespan, and so on.

ALL of this is missing from your examples, completely, not to mention that deities do not even have matching alignment.

As a result, they do not work as a replacement of original story, but only bear a superficial similarity to it in some minor details. Your examples tell entirely different stories.
TimeAdept wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:37 pm
I'm being a little facetious here - race can matter, but its importance
Please don't be facetious, then. You're also sound as if you're implying that people who state that races come with unique experience are insincere and bring up examples only to have the races unlocked.

The situation remains the same - races come with unique baggage, and that baggage cannot be replaced through roleplay. You have to be the member of the race. If you're human, you'll never be a halfling, a gnome, a tiefling, an imp, an ogre, a pixie or a dwarf.
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TimeAdept
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Re: Alternative Methods for Access to Award Races

Post by TimeAdept » Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:25 pm

ok

Seven Sons of Sin
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Re: Alternative Methods for Access to Award Races

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:12 am

Void wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:59 pm
TimeAdept wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:37 pm
You are a human priestess of Gargauth, vying for power. The
Not even close. Details matter.

Grab "Drow of the Underdark", read it, and now remember that ALL of it is part of the story I mentioned. There's also matter of tests of Lolth, possibility of being turned into drider upon failure, and the nature of the mad goddess herself, which is drow exclusive. Don't forget about setting itself, which is Underdark, things like Faerzress, unique drow crafts, long lifespan, and so on.

ALL of this is missing from your examples, completely, not to mention that deities do not even have matching alignment.

As a result, they do not work as a replacement of original story, but only bear a superficial similarity to it in some minor details. Your examples tell entirely different stories.
TimeAdept wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:37 pm
I'm being a little facetious here - race can matter, but its importance
Please don't be facetious, then. You're also sound as if you're implying that people who state that races come with unique experience are insincere and bring up examples only to have the races unlocked.

The situation remains the same - races come with unique baggage, and that baggage cannot be replaced through roleplay. You have to be the member of the race. If you're human, you'll never be a halfling, a gnome, a tiefling, an imp, an ogre, a pixie or a dwarf.
I agree with what Time Adept proposes.

We can agree to disagree, Void. You seem to be hung up on all these details that I don't think really make a significant impact on the narrative arc you're trying to articulate.

Not to pull a "there's only 7 types of stories known to man" on this idea of character and race - but really, the story of the priestess of Gargauth and the priestess of Lloth hit the same story beats. The emotion of each narrative is going to hit on the same themes. I'll never be able to convince you otherwise by saying that tests of Lloth, threat of drider, elvish lore, Underdark setting, etc., is all window dressing. It's niceties.

Each priestess will have the same "narrative" house, in my opinion, just with different coats of paint. You think paint makes a difference. I'm saying it doesn't really. It's the same house.
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