Alternative Methods for Access to Award Races

[Ork]

Well...as was stated before...sometimes it does...dont state as fact it doesnt....
And dont automaticly put all people who want to play reward race into "special snowflake" box...

I don't believe the "more access to subrace" group have done a convincing job of proving that race makes roleplay. Race is one of the shallowest metrics for roleplay.

[CptJonas]

Well...as was stated before...sometimes it does...dont state as fact it doesnt....
And dont automaticly put all people who want to play reward race into "special snowflake" box...

I don't believe the "more access to subrace" group have done a convincing job of proving that race makes roleplay. Race is one of the shallowest metrics for roleplay.

You can say same about class...basicly same with race...

So...why do we even roleplay our races and classes? Lets stop doing that...its all shallow anyway...

Just deal with that...Who is your character, how they were raised, and what they do in life....that all makes what your character is...

And I can aggre in some extend....base race RP is kinda shallow...bcs those races have xy movies and books about them....we saw basicly every race RP of elves and dwarfs thats nearly posible....
Thats why specificly this part of RP (race RP) is way more interesting for those unique races (some of them unique to FR, others just not totaly overused in all media over the years)

[The GrumpyCat]

The award system does need looking at, and we are doing so. But it may take some time.

Ultimatly what I want is it to do the following

*Favour good roleplay
*Also have enough mechanical possiblity that those who slip beneath the net can get a chance at things.
*Keep certain races relitivly rare
*Encourage people to continue rolling characters when their story is done.

Because it'll do all these things, it will probably also do something you don't like.

This is a shame, but frankly any system that relies to hard on any one of the above things, or expunges any one of the above things, would be worse imo.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Everyone needs to reread everything Kuma has written in this thread.

The greatest folly of Arelithian playerbase is the belief that to tell a certain story necessitates a certain playable race. But, this isn't just a problem of Arelith, this is a larger problem of Dungeons & Dragons as a whole.

But go reread everything Kuma has said. If you're offended by anything he's written, I'd encourage introspection.

[Xerah]

Everyone needs to reread everything Kuma has written in this thread.

The greatest folly of Arelithian playerbase is the belief that to tell a certain story necessitates a certain playable race. But, this isn't just a problem of Arelith, this is a larger problem of Dungeons & Dragons as a whole.

But go reread everything Kuma has said. If you're offended by anything he's written, I'd encourage introspection.

Agreed completely. I've been playing NWN for 15 years and still have so many basic race character ideas that I'm probably never going to run out.

[Interium]

Great point honestly. Right now those who grind level 26s to roll are rewarded, no matter what anyone says.
And of course you can make interesting characters without playing rare races too, I don't think that was the OP's point at all with the thread and I honestly don't see why it's discussed so heavily.

Right now, like OP brought up, there is a system in place that rewards heavy xp grinding over RP, at least when it comes to wanting to play a specific race, be it for a grand character concept or purely for build mechanics, the latter likely being a reason for many who heavily grind level 26s. Responding to that with an argument that you can tell a great story no matter the race is strange to me, it's a different topic completely. I know one thing though and that is that the character fodder that exists for the sole reason of a 5% rewards likely won't tell many great stories.

Not sure what should be done instead but I really approve the OP bringing life to this discussion, and given Grumpcat's response it seems the concerns are shared by the Arelith Team! I'm really looking forward to what comes out of this!

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Here's what I would propose if I were part of the conversation on how best to alter this as a baseline for a debate:

For starters, I would keep the roll aspect for ECL and the races that should be kept uncommon but not rare, like Hobgoblins and Derros and whatever else fits. I would cut it down to three tiers instead of four, put each in the proper power level and make the highest tier easier to get then it is currently.

Ok, now that the easy part is out of the way, here comes the tricky part. A player instead of using their reward on the common stuff can apply to get something better. The things they can get are also tiered (rare races for tier one, extremely rare races for tier two, and a super perk for tier three) and based on the roll, but the application would be involved to show that they understand the basics of said race or they have a idea worthy of said super perk. What I mean by super perk is something along the lines of starting with a boat, a home base, or something in game that reflects their concept (yeah I can hear the groans already).

The people that should be applying should meet one of two criteria's: One, they had a character that had an obvious impact on the server. Someone everyone knew about their exploits, ect., and got people involved in their story. Two, characters that are either builds that are no longer allowed (weavemasters, kensai) or are so old they have 3 major gifts instead of 2. I would even auto bump two up a tier from what they roll to further incentivize people to do this, and eventually get to the point where people are forced to.

Now I know some things would have to change for a system like this to work. One, players would just have to have faith that the dm team while still human and therefore flawed had the best intentions for the server in mind when deciding on these things. Two, the dm team themselves would have to get better at giving feedback on rejection when it comes to apps, something I found to be lacking quite a bit when I last sent in something for a harper about a year ago. I know its a thin line between giving good feedback on what people can be doing better and flat out influencing them so much that of course they get it right by the time you are done, you gave them the keys to the kingdom. But it can be walked.

I actually think a system like this could work once the kinks are ironed out for Arelith, since it provides something for people that don't want to be bothered with the application process similar to whats in place now while also going above and beyond for players giving up something major or doing something great in game. It also has incentives for people to roll their long standing characters as opposed to just spending a few weeks at a time grinding for rewards while keeping their long standing character along the way, and gives you a perfectly acceptable out to taking away some of the broken stuff still floating about.

If you like the idea, tweak it to fit as you will. I came up with it as I was typing, so its far from a finished product

[NauVaseline]

I don't believe the "more access to subrace" group have done a convincing job of proving that race makes roleplay. Race is one of the shallowest metrics for roleplay.

+1

[Void]

Well, there you go, that's what this whole thing is about. There are different ways to enjoy Arelith, some are conductive to awards, some aren't. If sticking to a single character and heavily RPing is a valid way of experiencing Arelith, why isn't it being rewarded?

Isn't thsi what RPR rating is for?

You can't really make a script to evaluate RP quality, becuase script has no brain.
Hence we have current gacha system.

The greatest folly of Arelithian playerbase is the belief that to tell a certain story necessitates a certain playable race.

That belief is one hundred percent correct.
There are stories where you HAVE to be a member of a certain race or you won't be able to tell them.

Among the characteristics of your character race (or species) probably has most long term impact, as it defines the foundation of your character to extreme degree. Society, upbringing, outside influences, tendencies, etc.

[Wuthering]

I think the notion that players play a character for say a year then delete what would be a “bored epic” solely because they have the chance to play a special race does not take into account the reality of the server.

There are players who are still on characters created a decade ago and who are still active, whether they are “elders” in a community or holding on to positions of power indefinitely or just showing up every now and then to either give advice or throw their weight around. Some of these are great and some should probably go away but I don’t see any of them rolling because they have a 5% shot at some special race.

There are players who are heavy RP, rarely grind or do writs solo and take forever to level but are undeniably great RPers even though they never get to level 30. These players are pretty much out of the “epic sacrifice” system completely and will probably never have access to “special races" even though some of them would probably be ideal candidates to play them.

There are players who really want that Tiefling and will churn through one disposable character after the next until they get it. Maybe the Tiefling’s RP will be great but the disposable characters will likely be bare minimum RP at best. This is who the current system rewards the most and it’s such common behavior people speak of it like it’s perfectly acceptable and just what you have to do. I think it’s a detriment, maybe you don’t agree.

Then there are players who get to epic and play their characters until the story is up. Here is where the “bored epic” syndrome might come in because these are the players who can be encouraged to delete instead of hanging around past their sell-by date. I really believe that in the past on Arelith and on other servers these players are reluctant to give their characters up because they don’t want to start at zero again and have to spend many months getting back to a position of (perceived) power and relevance and being able to hang with the movers and shakers. It’s the writ system more than anything that encourages them to cycle through characters, because that allows you to get back to a comfortable position where you can take part in the big stories going on rather quickly.

Yes, some of these players will play a special race once they delete. But how many are playing a special race because they have the award and nothing else to spend it on and how many are playing a special race because they’re so inspired to be an Imaskari they’ll delete an existing character to get it? I don’t think people playing unusual races for no other reason than because they have an award and it's a novelty is that great of a situation either, and I am just not convinced that the special races are such a draw to delete a “bored epic” especially now that unique 5% requests are no longer available.

I am 100% for the sacrifice system and character deletion but I think the rewards you get should be catered towards creating new characters that are standard races with special perks instead of using a random smattering of special races as the dangling carrot. I think many of the “special” races like troglodyte, derro, wild dwarf etc should just be by application and only available to the players who have a really good idea for what to do with them instead of reserving them for players who have a reward and nothing else to spend it on.

[One-Eyed Doll]

If we're talking about races, it should likely be more about 'how many exist' than 'what can we gate' Ogres, Fey, are many for example. So, maybe something like this. (This list takes into account innate racial/abilities and potential builds, for proper sorting.)

Minor:
Derro, Troglodyte, Gold Dwarf, Hobgoblin

Normal:
Drow, Duergar, Wild Elf, Gnoll, Minotaur

Greater:
Ogre, Fey, Imp, Genasi

Major:
Yuan-ti Pureblood, Deep Imaskari, Firbolg, Rakshasa, Vampire, Aasimar


Decided to post my 2 cents since I forgot to log out *waves*

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

I think the notion that players play a character for say a year then delete what would be a “bored epic” solely because they have the chance to play a special race does not take into account the reality of the server.

There are players who are still on characters created a decade ago and who are still active, whether they are “elders” in a community or holding on to positions of power indefinitely or just showing up every now and then to either give advice or throw their weight around. Some of these are great and some should probably go away but I don’t see any of them rolling because they have a 5% shot at some special race.

There are players who are heavy RP, rarely grind or do writs solo and take forever to level but are undeniably great RPers even though they never get to level 30. These players are pretty much out of the “epic sacrifice” system completely and will probably never have access to “special races" even though some of them would probably be ideal candidates to play them.

There are players who really want that Tiefling and will churn through one disposable character after the next until they get it. Maybe the Tiefling’s RP will be great but the disposable characters will likely be bare minimum RP at best. This is who the current system rewards the most and it’s such common behavior people speak of it like it’s perfectly acceptable and just what you have to do. I think it’s a detriment, maybe you don’t agree.

Then there are players who get to epic and play their characters until the story is up. Here is where the “bored epic” syndrome might come in because these are the players who can be encouraged to delete instead of hanging around past their sell-by date. I really believe that in the past on Arelith and on other servers these players are reluctant to give their characters up because they don’t want to start at zero again and have to spend many months getting back to a position of (perceived) power and relevance and being able to hang with the movers and shakers. It’s the writ system more than anything that encourages them to cycle through characters, because that allows you to get back to a comfortable position where you can take part in the big stories going on rather quickly.

Yes, some of these players will play a special race once they delete. But how many are playing a special race because they have the award and nothing else to spend it on and how many are playing a special race because they’re so inspired to be an Imaskari they’ll delete an existing character to get it? I don’t think people playing unusual races for no other reason than because they have an award and it's a novelty is that great of a situation either, and I am just not convinced that the special races are such a draw to delete a “bored epic” especially now that unique 5% requests are no longer available.

I am 100% for the sacrifice system and character deletion but I think the rewards you get should be catered towards creating new characters that are standard races with special perks instead of using a random smattering of special races as the dangling carrot. I think many of the “special” races like troglodyte, derro, wild dwarf etc should just be by application and only available to the players who have a really good idea for what to do with them instead of reserving them for players who have a reward and nothing else to spend it on.

I agree with everything you said here, with the exception of the bit at the end about special races requiring applications. On one hand, I do agree with you that things like say, Rakshasa, Cambion, Dragon/Halves, etc, would probably benefit in their rare occurrences from some kind of DM oversight- but I am absolutely unwilling to get on board with it because I'm unwilling to subject the DM's to the hundreds if not thousands of applications and mountains of salt that will inevitably follow for the no's they feel they must give to maintain server setting integrity.

In regards to race not equaling RP- I agree, but there is a middle ground here. To say that Race does not equal RP is 100% accurate, but I believe such a statement sidesteps the intended point of a misstatement- your race will never equal RP, but it can, and most likely will and should, heavily influence and shape it, when it comes to rare races.

As a tangible example, if you see someone turn into a dragon, and realize that they are, in fact, a dragon, and not some sort of caster or shapeshifter, that influences the RP in a unique way - or at the least, has the opportunity to. As a more specific example, when you see a tiefling or other plane-touched being, the world's lore informs you immediately that said character carries a very real taint of evil in their blood- from the perspective of the characters observing the tiefling, they may be less inclined to be trusting, more inclined to be initially hostile, etc. The tiefling character may have a chip on their shoulder.

Sure, a shield dwarf could also have a chip on their shoulder about being short, and yes, that can be character defining, but saying it has the same impact or influence, much less narrative opportunity for the story, as a character who is distrusted at birth for circumstances of their birth by (almost) everyone they encounter throughout their life is not a statement I can take seriously, either.

I will grant you that this mentality is not necessarily what everyone who goes for these races approaches it with- and that's why I can agree that such things would benefit from some form of oversight - but I don't believe the cost for that (inevitable DM souring and burnout) is worth it at all, when we already have players in certain time-zones not getting enough DM coverage to the point that the administration specifically has to recruit for that region of the player-base.

[gordan]

Arelith as a server want People to play It, the award sistem Is made exactly for force People spending months on killing stuff and avoid any kind of RP

Ask the standard Cordorian/skal player... He do not care abaut interation lore or Simply good RP... Just go kill stuff for writ and crafting...

Some times sems are a server of Minecraft rather than DnD

[CptJonas]

Yes, some of these players will play a special race once they delete. But how many are playing a special race because they have the award and nothing else to spend it on and how many are playing a special race because they’re so inspired to be an Imaskari they’ll delete an existing character to get it? I don’t think people playing unusual races for no other reason than because they have an award and it's a novelty is that great of a situation either, and I am just not convinced that the special races are such a draw to delete a “bored epic” especially now that unique 5% requests are no longer available.

I will respond just to this bcs with rest of your post I moustly aggre...good ideas even thro it would be sadly unduable thx DM overload...

Just want to say that I am exact oposite...
When I started to play I locked myself on one thing...I want to play undead or demon or as close as posible...I do it all the time, and enjoy it...Once I looked at rewards I basickly knew that I would never get that (I started in time when writs dont existed) so I looked at closes options...Palemaster(at that time RPR 20) and imp (in that time normal or minor reward...dont remember corectly)...I was totaly destroyed by idea that I couldnt play that...but I worked for it...I tryed my best in that hard time....worked on my RP, and level alt characters until I got them on 16 and deleted them for reward...sadly at moment when I got that reward imp was allready moved to major...like 1 week before I got my reward...

I literaly stopped playing for like few months....after that I started again....and worked on my RP with alts...and once again tryed to level up them into high enough levels to get them into level 21 to get chance to play on next close thing...Tiefling (in that time Greater reward).....And once again....it was moved to Major before I could get my hands on that reward...

Then after years of play...I got my my RPR to 20...I imidietly started new character as PM.....get it to epics enjoyed it..(few weeks after that PMs were enabled to all RPR...yeah...I am realy lucky boy ).....but at that time PMs were still had problems with with spell rezists and it kind destryed my experience...But anyway I enojyed plaing it even tho it wasnt perfect...later...once story of that character was finished I sac it and get Greater reward....At first look there was nothing so much interesting...
But after weeks I setled on Immaskari which I started to like after reading all lore accesable....

I played my Immaskari and it was great experience...it was actualy my first character which I got on lvl 30....Ive played all story aspects I wanted when I started that character, and few super nice stories I never expected...got best gear....explored all endgame...and at that time...story of that character ended...But I loved it...and let it live when I got on my vacation from arelith for few months...after I returned I saw that changes to Wild mage destroyed that character concept (he was chaos mage who used -chaos allways) so I decided to roll it....got normal reward out of that...I was pissed...sure....but played anyways....

From that day I continue to create alts to play...and hope to one day get my goal of Undead/Demon...Dont get me wrong...I am not humility druid grinding my way there...I play normal characters with normal builds and try to enjoy my RP and play....even tho its allways not perfect....I miss my old Wild mage....I look at Major rewards with tear in my eyes...
Reason why I call them alts is bcs I know...That once I hit level 26 I cant stop myself from roling them...bcs lure of that chance is too much (I kinda cant rezist gambling but thats different isue)....and bcs I still want my final and first goal...

So yeah....there are some player who are actualy set to play certain race RP, and cant get over it...and who actualy works for it all time....I did it all my time on arelith (over 4 years and just on E edition over 1300 hours...and gods only know how many thousands of ours on base game)....So yeah...I hate reward system...I hate that Race lock....and I hate that %chance which is basicly gambling...and I hate that super high chance to get just normal reward out off level 30 character...or minor from 21 level...And or geting same chance on characters with no RP and time spend as on max level characters when I spend so much work, time, on RP and play and which I loved...It kinda intesifies to not even try to play past level 26 bcs all time beyond that doesnt matter...

[Kuma]

If Dragon PC showed us anything...it was that in current system....(especialy old one where you could get rewards on any RPR)....that people who get chance to play are often not up par with RP of that race

if i recall correctly dragons were still on an application basis. so woops.

[CptJonas]

If Dragon PC showed us anything...it was that in current system....(especialy old one where you could get rewards on any RPR)....that people who get chance to play are often not up par with RP of that race

if i recall correctly dragons were still on an application basis. so woops.

Well....from my point of wiew...what actualy showed us Dragons was huch much people are siting on Major rewards.....One day noone...other day like 20+ dragons or what?

[Void]

If Dragon PC showed us anything...it was that in current system....(especialy old one where you could get rewards on any RPR)....that people who get chance to play are often not up par with RP of that race

if i recall correctly dragons were still on an application basis. so woops.

Well....from my point of wiew...what actualy showed us Dragons was huch much people are siting on Major rewards.....One day noone...other day like 20+ dragons or what?

Given that major rewards are rare, people are going to hoard them. And then they'll spend it the moment thing they wanted becomes available. That's a side-effect of current system, and that's why we got sudden influx of firbolgs.

In my experience, dragons are something that players shouldn't normally be allowed to play, because being a dragon really get into some people's heads for some reason. That's based on experience on Sigil(nwn2)

[The GrumpyCat]

Hello.

Points of information

Minor: -1 ECL applied to your character OR one of the following:

Access to the Forest Gnome subrace.
Access to the Hobgoblin subrace.
Access to the Wild Dwarf subrace.
Access to the Noble Award. This award currently grants Silver Palm as well as certain NPCs will recognize your nobility, sometimes granting you access to noble only perks.

Normal: -2 ECL applied to your character OR one of the following:

Access to the Troglodyte race.
Access to the Derro race.
Good alignment for an innately-evil race (as kobolds or drow), and viceversa. Note this does not make a surface monster, solely a good monster, and vice-versa.
Non-Evil Pale Master

Greater: -3 ECL applied to your character, OR one of the following:

Access to the Imp race.
Access to the Yuan-ti Pureblood race.
Access to the Deep Imaskari Subrace.
Access to the Genasi Subraces.
Access to the Firbolg race.
Allow Gnoll, Duergar and Goblin characters to attain pirate tattoos and start in Sencliff, this reward requires an APPROVED application made to the DM team prior to taking the award.

Major:

Access to the Ogre race.
Access to the Fey race.
Access to the Vampire race, with a very strong application submitted to the DM team.
Access to the Tiefling race.
Access to the Aasimar race.
Access to the Minotaur race.
Access to the Rakshasa race, with a very strong application submitted to the DM team.
RDD PrC Token

This covers what is avaiable at the moment.

Vampire and Rackshasa require an application. Nothing else does.

We do not, and likely will never, have Dragons as an option on 5% again.

At the moment the dev team is working hard on other projects (like an overhall of how the system works) but I do intend to add some more application based 5% creatures.

[CptJonas]

At the moment the dev team is working hard on other projects (like an overhall of how the system works) but I do intend to add some more application based 5% creatures.

At same time...you said what for example I personaly want and what I hate and dont want...

-"other projects (like an overhall of how the system works)" - Thats what I like to see...

-"add some more application based 5% creatures" - Thats exactly what I dont like......It only increse intesity of spite in people agains 5%....and whats more...why add into something what allready have moust number of options?
You allready have same number of options in 5% roll then in both minor and normal awards combined....in those moust common in which would moust people benefit from....In my humble oppinion it should be total oposite...like 5/3/2/1 in distribution of number of rewards...Why work on something which only like 5% of people will have when you can add something that 70% of people could get?

We are allways happy to see new updates...dont take me wrong...but I am personaly allways just pissed when I see that notification of new update...then look into it...and there is just new option for 5% stuff....

[Kuma]

-"add some more application based 5% creatures" - Thats exactly what I dont like......It only increse intesity of spite in people agains 5%....and whats more...why add into something what allready have moust number of options?
You allready have same number of options in 5% roll then in both minor and normal awards combined....in those moust common in which would moust people benefit from....In my humble oppinion it should be total oposite...like 5/3/2/1 in distribution of number of rewards...Why work on something which only like 5% of people will have when you can add something that 70% of people could get?

We are allways happy to see new updates...dont take me wrong...but I am personaly allways just pissed when I see that notification of new update...then look into it...and there is just new option for 5% stuff....

i mean, the alternative is to make those options more common (bad), or just not include the option at all and keep the pool of available 5% options smaller and less attractive. also, arelith development has never operated on a principle of maximising inclusion as a number one priority, many of these races and even subclasses/new classes are just one dev being inspired.

[The GrumpyCat]

I would also like to increase possiblities for lower tiered rewards too, yes.
But given we no longer do the 'something special' for 5%, I want to keep a very large vareity to keep them super 'special'. Also to help keep things rarer, oddly enough. If for a 5% all we had was, for example, Tiefling. Then you'd end up with lots and lots of tieflings around.

What I'm getting from this thread , and those like it, is that

a) People want a system that allows for more people to play special races
b) People want a system that allows for fewer people to play special races
c) People want a system that is much more based on roleplay - which will mean DMs fiat (as DMs judge good rp)
d) People want a system that does not rely too much on DMs judging good rp
e) People want a system that has more applications
f) People are concerned about a system that may require too many applications.
g) People want more powerful and exotic options for 5%
h) People want fewer powerful and exotic options for 5%
i) People want more automation
j) People wnat less automoation.

I think we have to settle here that, whatever is implemented, people will not be happy.

[Kuma]

I think we have to settle here that, whatever is implemented, people will not be happy.

this is precisely why i advocate for the current system: it at least provides an equal opportunity for everyone

[Void]

I think we have to settle here that, whatever is implemented, people will not be happy.

this is precisely why i advocate for the current system: it at least provides an equal opportunity for everyone

It does not. It heavily favors people with more playtime available.

[The GrumpyCat]

I think we have to settle here that, whatever is implemented, people will not be happy.

this is precisely why i advocate for the current system: it at least provides an equal opportunity for everyone

It does not. It heavily favors people with more playtime available.

I can't imagine a system in (short of opening everything up to everyone) where that won't be the case to an extent.

[Void]

this is precisely why i advocate for the current system: it at least provides an equal opportunity for everyone

It does not. It heavily favors people with more playtime available.

I can't imagine a system in (short of opening everything up to everyone) where that won't be the case to an extent.

Applications as a reserve option for people with 20 RPR or more. To prevent abuse it is possible to limit number of applications per months or number of applicaitons per year. For example, one application per 3 months.

Basically, if somebody is playing 3 hours per week on weekends but is amazing at it, they probably should have a chance to play restricted race. Currently this person will be at a huge disadvantage compared to someone who can clock 20..40 hours per week on arelith. After a year on the server the "limited time player" will have clocked 52 hours, while "a lot of free time" player will have clocked up to 2080 hours. At the same time number of hours clocked does not mean the person has bigger impact, but it does mean that limited time player likely will never have a major award.