Druid Things

[Hazard]

Hello. I'm playing probably my 7th druid and they're about level 30 now, and I've noticed some things and wanted to give my feedback.

Monolith is very powerful yes, but you can't do a lot while in it other than chug potions, it is incredibly tanky but the DPS is quite low which I think is great, because your animal companion is squishy as wet toilet paper but has amazing AB and damage. This leaves a nice vulnerability where you can kill/disable the animal companion. I really enjoy the improved forms, and animal companion and feel like it's a staple of the druid class on Arelith. My first 2 druids were in a time when druid forms were utterly useless beside dragonshape (if you could afford it) and animal companions were horribad, and even elemental swarm was vanilla.

What I AM noticing though, is that elemental swarm is what breaks the game on every single druid I've played since then. The sheer number of NPCs being controlled distracts the AI from focusing 1, increasing their survivability by a lot and each of them get a few attacks per round and it all adds up to insane DPS.

For me, at least in my opinion, druids are not too hard to counter in PvP, but obviously they wouldn't suffer terribly from a nerf there. In PvE is where they are REALLY BROKEN.

I know the suggestion thread is locked right now, but I just really wanted to give my feedback and say that I think elemental swarm is the prime culprit here. I notice a huge difference between having Monolith form+Animal Companion+9th Circle elemental, vs Monolith form+Animal Companion+Elemental Swarm. Elemental swarm beats the absolute pants off of 9th circle elemental in pve every single time.

I think stopping Epic Caster Levels from affecting elemental swarm, or just lowering their HD a bit might bring druid more in line with other classes. A single change that I think would make a lot of difference. With only one elemental out, your animal companion takes a lot more hits in PvE and is much more likely to die, which for end-game places means you will not have the DPS required, leading to your elemental dying very quickly to a moderately sized encounter soon after, forcing a retreat. I think this would be a way to stop druids from being the PvE solo-gods that they are, without having to buff any NPCs (which makes things harder for other classes that aren't gods).

Elemental swarm aside and back to monolith. It becomes very powerful because the druid can switch between being as tanky as a full melee and being a full caster with high DCs at will. This can lead to an almost unavoidable exploit, where if you leave a polymorph and then cast a spell immediately after, you can get the spell off before the anti-spellloss-script kicks in, causing you to NOT lose a prepared spell, effectively giving you infinite spells. This is very hard to avoid because you don't exactly want to stand around flatfooted waiting, in the middle of combat. I limit myself to using spells only the amount of times I prepared them, regardless of if I have more casts or not. A remedy to this AND a fair nerf to druid could be to introduce a cooldown that prevents you from casting spells for a small amount of time after changing back. Maybe 1 to 2 rounds? Also, EDR + Monolith is extra tanky and maybe should not stack anymore.

I know this reads a lot like a suggestion thread, but ... It's feedback >_>
Uuuuh. Totally feedback.

Okay, I've fedback now. Thanks for reading/eatingforward.

P.S .. Haha. Yes. I am advocating for a nerf of my own character.

[Aeralad]

no darkness and umd though right? darkness so op had to be nerfed.

[Hazard]

no darkness and umd though right? darkness so op had to be nerfed.

Druid don't have darkness in their spellbook or access to UMD if they want monolithic forms.

[cowboy]

I think druids are 100% off the mark of what they are PnP wise. Can't cast. Only one animal companion is good.

I think they need to be:

1) Made less weird tanks by end goal. Maybe give them their "beast shape" casting abilities through spontaneous casting with a feat investment. Make the shapes more cushions of HP and less AC bombs.

2) Given more reason to cast. This is done both by giving them spells and probably haste or a native - self targeted haste spell.

3) Totem Animals, Dragon Shape, Elemental Forms need to be taken back to the drawing board.

4) Totem skins need to be 100% aesthetic and there needs to be more of them and it needs to be less permanent. I'd also like to see totem animals which are elementals to have "VFX" which show off what element they are. FIRE RAVENS, MISTY DEER, and so forth.

I know thats vague but druids have been in a weird, bad place for a while now. Changing them is going to make everyone scream who currently having them, but they really do need to change.

in pnp they're just grass and moss clerics who have burst spells and cool shapechange abilities but on Arelith you can barely indulge them as casters due to: lacking spell slots and no native haste.

[xanrael]

Some of the other classes give inspiration on RP concepts while Druid seems to restrict it to a narrow band. I'm hopeful that clue #1 of the "Coming Soon" post is related to that and we could get something based off a portion of the Druid mechanics with more open RP possibilities.

I do think that the druid could use a balance pass, but the other is my own personal hope.

[Wuthering]

I suspect druids could actually be great casters and I think I just may make my next character a casting druid to prove that. They can toss around spells like freeze and burst of glacial wrath, they can have an army of summons, they have a lot of disablers that are never used so people won't expect them and they can heal and regenerate and cast premonition... AND they don't have to use spell components..!

Almost all of build for epic monolith shape because it's very powerful and almost brain-dead to play but maybe a max wisdom conjurer/evoker/transmuter could be perfectly viable for something different and they'd have the freedom to dip ranger or bard for more skills.

That's not to say I wouldn't love to see a casting-based path. Clerics have healers, druids could have elementalists who give up all shapeshifting for some other perks..?

I would just add as a PSA... Druids can use divine darkness wands without UMD (and improved invisibility and haste and others for that matter) and potions are easier than even to come by so darkness is actually a viable tactic, and you could take the minor gift for a darkness spell every 5 minutes.

[Aeralad]

They can use divine wands? They can use summons like other casters so boom, awesome casters right?

[Jagel]

The antimagic field should be enough to stifle elemental swarm as a pvp tool.

I agree that once you get elemental swarm your pve power gets turned up to eleven.

I’d been contemplating making elemental swarm more of a burst thing like the shadows from shadow evocation but as dps/tanks and not diaablers. Druid stands in place and channels, resummoning elementals for as long as they channel. Max number of elementals at one time derinde by class levels, all elementals unsummoning one or two rounds after the channeling is interrupted.

As for the elemental shapes I’d say:
- huge elemental is useless. Weak shape 1/day. Either needs to be more powerful or on cooldown to make it a utility thing (resisting certain elements, sneak attacks etc.)
- greater shape is ok. Slight power spike when you get it, falls off pretty quickly but has some nice utility and coupled with animal companion, buffs and summon it’s fine
- monolith is good.

I’d like the improved animal shapes to be more viable - some sort of progressing AC, dmg, thematic skill or feat bonuses would be nice. Capping at lvl 20 or some such.

And dragon shape.. I weep for you. I still think it’d be fantastic if you could choose between empowering dragon shape or monolith shape at lvl 28. It’s strictly worse than monoliths and only 3/day.

[CptJonas]

My personal words on caster druids...
When you build caster...you want these:
1) High circle damage/kill spells...anything below 7 circle is just too low on DC....Or spells with no save
2) Good dispels and breaches....
3) Survivalibity (be it high AC/HP/Saves or things like hips)

And druid curently....
1)They have curently some actualy good spells on higher tiers but still quite low, and nothing special to make them stand out...And before masiv nerfs they had one actual good no save spell (inferno), but in its current state its not exactly worth even speaking off...

2) They are not exactly super bad...but still....Once again...Good but not best...

3) About this...you can argue that druid have shapes so...But no...in actual human form in which you will be casting from....They are super squshi....like moust paper like caster out there....in all aspects..


So if you are actualy wana play druid as caster...you are not gonna be bad......just worste in comparision to all other casters...
And its shame to me....I wanted to play it aswell...but no...sadly no....

[CookieMonster]

It is sad, but, whenever I see a Druid, I automatically assume they are grinding to 26, because this is what the class has become 8/10 times.

They just thrive in solo PvE. With near to no fallback.

[Wuthering]

My personal words on caster druids...
When you build caster...you want these:
1) High circle damage/kill spells...anything below 7 circle is just too low on DC....Or spells with no save
2) Good dispels and breaches....
3) Survivalibity (be it high AC/HP/Saves or things like hips)

And druid curently....
1)They have curently some actualy good spells on higher tiers but still quite low, and nothing special to make them stand out...And before masiv nerfs they had one actual good no save spell (inferno), but in its current state its not exactly worth even speaking off...

2) They are not exactly super bad...but still....Once again...Good but not best...

3) About this...you can argue that druid have shapes so...But no...in actual human form in which you will be casting from....They are super squshi....like moust paper like caster out there....in all aspects..


So if you are actualy wana play druid as caster...you are not gonna be bad......just worste in comparision to all other casters...
And its shame to me....I wanted to play it aswell...but no...sadly no....

I'd say you're right for the most part. But they're not that squishy- you could take heavy armor, or a caster could dip ranger for their fantastic armors or monk for wis-based AC and their gear too. Plus +5 barkskin and premo and greater stoneskin backed up by heal and regeneration.. They're much less squishy than wizards and healers.

Maybe epic lore focus could make up for the lack of dispel and breaches?

I'm not saying they're great but it could be an interesting challenge.

[Kuma]

i'd like to see elemental swarm retooled, or maybe even just summoning 2 and then popping the other two in as the others are killed/dismissed. it's kind of boggling to me how being able to have a pack of 4 level 8 elementals at once was considered balanced, though it does only work because sheer numbers breaks summon AI.

They can use divine wands? They can use summons like other casters so boom, awesome casters right?

i hope that we haven't come to the decision that literally just summons and access (somehow) to darkness makes you an "awesome caster"

they're never quite going to be a sorc/wiz when it comes to damage spikes, or sheer numbers of spells, especially as long as it's able to move more or less at will between caster form and unkillable monoform. i'm all for cowboy's suggestions, and op's. also, note to self, play a druid, they're dope

[Aeralad]

They can use divine wands? They can use summons like other casters so boom, awesome casters right?

i hope that we haven't come to the decision that literally just summons and access (somehow) to darkness makes you an "awesome caster"

people have told me that though lol

[CptJonas]

I'd say you're right for the most part. But they're not that squishy- you could take heavy armor, or a caster could dip ranger for their fantastic armors or monk for wis-based AC and their gear too. Plus +5 barkskin and premo and greater stoneskin backed up by heal and regeneration.. They're much less squishy than wizards and healers.

Maybe epic lore focus could make up for the lack of dispel and breaches?

I'm not saying they're great but it could be an interesting challenge.

They are....compare it to even wizard who can cast premo and stoneskin also...barksin you can get from potion or scroll/want on every char....and wizards have EMA....and you have protection from spells for extra saves...and best spellbook out there...

Clerics have magic vestment, shield of faith etc....which is close to divine EMA....and they can dip pala/monk for AC, saves...
and they also have regenerations etc....

And sorc have same as wizard...EMA etc...and as bonus they can dip pala for insane saves and AC....

So in the end as I said....druid does have some same things as others...just less....and if you dip into anything you lose acces monolith...and if you would want to dip even more you lose acces to dragon shape...
You simply allways ends up with worste saves/AC/protections then any other caster...

I tryed them all...and I spend hours building it...They are weakest caster out there....definetly in squishy part....only thing what you get what cleric or Arcane casters get is your polymorphs and summons....Which is shame bcs it forces every druid to be just polymorphed tanky summoner....which is in my oppinion boring playstyle...and only one actualy viable for druid...which is bad in its own right...

[Baseili]

I've attempted to play a caster druid in the underdark and they can be quite fun, their offensive spells are typically AoE along with some really great buffs, I've only managed to break lvl 10 so far but that is due to not being able to find a purpose down there.
However caster druids seem to sit in the awkward middle of not being as flexibile as a mage or as useful as a cleric, in a party my druid just sat at the back after buffing not being able to do much aside from use call lightning a few times.

What I would love to see is an elementalist/shaman option, one that forgoes totems, animal shapes, companion and summoning power in favour of spells. For example instead of getting wild shape you get a lesser form of elemental shape but each shape offers unique bonuses to their respective spells, things like wall of fire X times per level for the fire elemental or boosted greater stoneskin for earth etc. The druid would only be able to cast spells limited by the elemental form and the polymorph timer would make the choice a meaningful one.

[Jagel]

Druids have an amazing array of cc spells but not enough reliable damage to do the killy-spammy caster thing.

Let’s face it though, most casters rely on their summons most of the time for dps only chucking out damage spells when faced with dangerous threats to conserve spells.

Paths are off the table atm it seems but a spirit shaman type class might be a fun nature themed divine sorcerer-type character.

[Ork]

If some of the Druid spell kit was made to target enemies only, I think we’d see more disables. Stone hold chief among them.

[Jagel]

Mind immunity blocks stonehold though, so that’s fairly easy to work around.

[AstralUniverse]

If some of the Druid spell kit was made to target enemies only, I think we’d see more disables. Stone hold chief among them.

100% this.

I've never played a druid and I dont personally, for my own enjoyment, find this class any appealing. Personal taste. However, I've recently traveled with a caster druid and it felt like a flawed mage that does pretty much similar things but with friendly fire on many spells. Felt a bit like the druid spells were left behind in that regard. Then again, druids are a force of nature so maybe leaving them friendly fire is an intentional part of the class design. I wont judge because it's a class I dont play.

[Sockss]

Druids can immunise themselves or their summons/ani comp from their disables. Once pray is used, getting disabled by a druid is a quick death. Their kit is pretty strong as is. For PvP and PvE.

I don't think swarm is OP at all, the elementals lose important traits like blind fight at that level, not to mention the AB and survivability loss. There are many situations you're better off using the ancient summon.

I would say that totem-shape has become a trap path for most viable druid builds with the removal of the free-use shapechange.

Dragonshape is also terrible, even more so with the KD-immunity update, KD was the only thing that gave it any relevance. It would be worth upping the damage on those, or making them smaller, or granting the shape infinite uses per day.

[CptJonas]

Druids can immunise themselves or their summons/ani comp from their disables. Once pray is used, getting disabled by a druid is a quick death. Their kit is pretty strong as is. For PvP and PvE.

I don't think swarm is OP at all, the elementals lose important traits like blind fight at that level, not to mention the AB and survivability loss. There are many situations you're better off using the ancient summon.

I would say that totem-shape has become a trap path for most viable druid builds with the removal of the free-use shapechange.

Dragonshape is also terrible, even more so with the KD-immunity update, KD was the only thing that gave it any relevance. It would be worth upping the damage on those, or making them smaller, or granting the shape infinite uses per day.

My personal problem with dragon shape, and well...any high level shape...is that you are pumpkin masiv/huge as kityflower...How in the seven hells are ya able to play when you have hard time to move and cant even click on enemies thro your masiv but....
I gameplay pespective its smaller you are...better...

I would love to get some epic shape that isnt huge as house....like shifter have...sadly shifter is still vanila so ehhh...
Like imagine if monolit elemental shapes were changed to incarnation of that element...like you dont need to be masiv to be powerfull...Imagine just your character model just made out off Fire/air/earth/water....

Or you can remade it completely so you would would not gain such AB/damage etc....and loss some power maybe....and add some ificasting abilities or maybe allow normal casting with bonuses to those elements...
I never grasped idea why would for example water elemental beat your head with some stick and not freze you to death or cast some tidal wave or drow you in buble of water...allways fellt weird...

[chris a gogo]

Pretty much what sockss said.

Plus the swarm is good for keeping agro off the druid more so if played as a caster.

If your playing as the tank using monolith single ancient is better, also you can still cast summons from the summon monster theme as they have it as spontaneous casting if it dies.
It is surprising how many don't seem to know this.

[Aeralad]

Oh I forgot stone hold default was allies too. That should probably be enemies only.