Shrines and Worship

[Emotionaloverload]

Hi!

So I have been mulling this over lately since it has become a problem and I would love to hear from others. Maybe I'm the only one with this issue.

Lets say you have a character that due to IG constraints cannot worship their god for Reasons (TM). On top of that, the society the character is in won't have the priests of said god (and adjacent societies find those priests in very short supply or none at all). That said, the character wants a small secret space for worship.

Now, under the current system, to worship you need a consecrated altar of your deity which -requires- a priest. You don't have the option, as a mundane, to 'tribute' that altar with offerings or do anything to assign that altar. Any evil priest can roll up and consecrate it - which permanently makes that altar for said evil god- Unlike desecrating an altar which can be repaired.

I do appreciate that having a priest work on your altar or with your character makes worship more optimal (in terms of piety) however I do think there needs to be some leeway for mundanes or faiths that have very few worshipers to be able to make better use of the system.

Perhaps altars that are offered enough tribute can be assigned to a specific god (the nature of the tribute might depend on the god?). Not only does that give the character something to work on/is actionable to the act of worship but it also safeguards the altar from being unusable should someone come by an consecrate it.

Thoughts?

-S

[Void]

Now, under the current system, to worship you need a consecrated altar of your deity which -requires- a priest.

This is incorrect.

You need a priest OR a character with "gift of the unholy".

In the past when I was trying to build a hidden shrine of queen of erinyes in totally secret location, I simply made a character with that gift.

That's the route I'd take when trying to work with rare faiths. Because there isn't going to be a priest, you need an ability to consecrate the thing yourself.

If you cannot create such character, you'd need to cooperate with another PLAYER (not character), to create the consecrator for this very purpose. This is not perfect ,as you need to OOC cooperate, but I don't htink there's another way. Well, you also could petition DM team for a possible solution, but simply spawning a consecrator would take less time.

The additional advantage of making a character with "gift of the unholy" is that you'll be able to hold mass prayers, like a priest.

[NMan7496]

I'm inclined to agree with this, even amongst gods whose faiths can be worshipped openly without IG persecution (e.g. Tyr and Selûne) don't have many people who can consecrate altars (either through the Gift of Holiness or being a Cleric) and other deities (like Mystra or the nature deities) have a lot of worshippers, but no one who can consecrate shrines (because their worshippers are all Mages and Druids/Rangers, respectively). With this much issue with good gods, I can't imagine the lengths that worshipers of evil gods must go through just to find a single person to consecrate a shrine for them.

A system to allow for others to consecrate altars, even if they have to go through great lengths to do it, would be extremely helpful.

[Void]

Perhaps altars that are offered enough tribute can be assigned to a specific god (the nature of the tribute might depend on the god?). Not only does that give the character something to work on/is actionable to the act of worship but it also safeguards the altar from being unusable should someone come by an consecrate it.

Thoughts?

-S

Additional: Making unique tribute for each deity is a TON of work. There seems to be at least 160 gods on Arelith. Looking up lore for each one, picking item from the module that fits as tribute, making sure it is actually available somewhere... this is going to be incredibly time consuming to implement.

[Emotionaloverload]

The deities are already separated into groups that can inform their tribute on a larger scale instead of each one specifically.

Also to the point of having to OoC organize a priest or gift character just to support your non gift or non priest character illustrates my point. You shouldn't have to do this to be included in the worship mechanic.

Currently the rule for fixtures (and most things ig) is WYSIWYG. If your evil priest walks up to a secret goodly altar that isn't consecrated, they can see that. That is actionable information. Even if there is a description that suggests that offerings have been left or there is accompanying fixture. That doesn't cover the mechanic. WYSIWYG and so the altar is unconsecrated leaving it open to be permanently unusable which in turn makes it largely pointless to include that altar on an unsupported mundane character shrine.


-S

[Archnon]

From the gifts page of the wiki:

It is also recommended that you have a reason behind each of your choices. Players are discouraged from taking things for purely mechanical or power gaming reasons.

If you are going to play a devout character, you should probably take the gift of (un)holy. If you're RP is so devoted that you need a specific altar to worship, then make your gifts match your character. This may mean sacrificing gift of craftsmanship or even perhaps a stat gift (which seems to be just mandatory these days).

If you are not that devout, then you should RP your worship as you see fit. You can worship your god at another altar or even the generic in game altars that pop up. If it is a public prayer thing, you can use the -pray emote on anything...... If you worship the hin god of garbage and opportunity, you can regularly walk up to trash bins and hit -pray and make a big deal of it for RP. If it is for the purposes of increasing your piety, i suggest you take an aspect of someone else. That has solved much of the piety building problem.

[Void]

Also to the point of having to OoC organize a priest or gift character just to support your non gift or non priest character illustrates my point. You shouldn't have to do this to be included in the worship mechanic.

Well, then your choice is to pray to your deity through altar of another god, until a preist arrives.

This is allowed. Existing altar should be sufficiently compatible.

--------

Basically, by picking rare faith, you put yourself at mercy of the world. There may be no priest for you. So, if you do not want to start the cult yourself, your only option is only to wait.

[The GrumpyCat]

Perhaps we could allow mundane characters to consecrate altars, but at a huge peity cost? Maybe even an XP cost? And/or lower the peity cost of consecrating for priests?
Also - I think an altar desarcrated cannot be re-consecrated. This always seemed odd to me. It'd be good if that were not so.

Would... these ideas help at all?

[Void]

Perhaps we could allow mundane characters to consecrate altars, but at a huge peity cost? Maybe even an XP cost? And/or lower the peity cost of consecrating for priests?
Also - I think an altar desarcrated cannot be re-consecrated. This always seemed odd to me. It'd be good if that were not so.

Would... these ideas help at all?

At huge piety and gold cost. Otherwise it will render priests useless.
For example, 100%-200% piety, 100k..200k gold.

[Complex]

it's a bit much to say that priests will be rendered useless just because others can consecrate. 100 to 200k is an outrageous price and i think that getting 100% or 200% of your piety drained is payment enough when you will also lower what it takes for a priest to do it. why be so restrictive about altar consecration? it doesn't give you a huge mechanical advantage and you can be happy with your ceremonies and the fact that you'll finally be able to raise your piety at a decent rate. worshipping an obscure or unpopular deity should not get you punished.

[Void]

it's a bit much to say that priests will be rendered useless just because others can consecrate. 100 to 200k is an outrageous price and i think that getting 100% or 200% of your piety drained is payment enough when you will also lower what it takes for a priest to do it. why be so restrictive about altar consecration? it doesn't give you a huge mechanical advantage and you can be happy with your ceremonies and the fact that you'll finally be able to raise your piety at a decent rate. worshipping an obscure or unpopular deity should not get you punished.

The suggested price is high, because this requires a priest. A priest has direct line to the deity. A non-priest doesn't.

You also aren't punished. You can pray on other altars, and deity mechanics work regardless.

Main source of raising piety is not praying either way.

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My past character consecrated altars for desert temples. Need of consecration was generating RP, because you need to find someone who can consecrate. If consecration is available to everybody at small price, this kind of RP will die out.

So the prices should be very high. 100k,,200k is in range of what a normal player can possibly afford, and 100..200% deity drain is reasonable compared to normal consecration price an actual cleric pays.

[The GrumpyCat]

Another suggestion that popped up on Discord thanks to Xarah -

An item (Holy Symbol) craftable only by clerics, and using valuble materials, that any class can use to consecrate an altar to their god.

[Rigela]

Something would be nice as are often many larger faiths people might worship yet are simply no clerics of, so often renders them with no altar and not like these faiths are of demigod/cult level either but big ones with sizeable followings in the world. While one can worship to others, it is nice in character to have a place dedicated to your characters own god. Plus, less time spent afking at an altar the better.

Placing the craftable in the hands of cleric could work, as long as meant any cleric could do it and then still involves needing someone else - just any cleric, rather than a specific one of your faith.

[Void]

Another suggestion that popped up on Discord thanks to Xarah -

An item (Holy Symbol) craftable only by clerics, and using valuble materials, that any class can use to consecrate an altar to their god.

This idea is good. Although it is possible to end up in situation where a cleric of Tyr end up indirectly creating a holy symbol for an altar of Gargauth. Then again, that's not necessarily a bad thing.

[Complex]

a craftable could work, yeah. i just think that paying 100-200k each time you need an altar consecrated but can't find a priest of your faith is a bit too much and would be a rather dissatisfying fix. when systems like this are failing i find it best to just make it easier for people instead of trying to predict how it will be abused or not (basing myself on the fact that consecrating doesnt give a huge mechanical advantage).

[CNS]

There is a gift to do this. If religion is important to your concept take the gift.

A low or easy to obtain way of doing it renders the gift obsolete. Especially characters that have given something up in order to take it.

[Void]

a craftable could work, yeah. i just think that paying 100-200k each time you need an altar consecrated but can't find a priest of your faith is a bit too much and would be a rather dissatisfying fix. when systems like this are failing i find it best to just make it easier for people instead of trying to predict how it will be abused or not (basing myself on the fact that consecrating doesnt give a huge mechanical advantage).

The way I see it, when somebody starts worrying about building altars for their gods, it is the time to start taking cleric levels. it fits. Level 3 dip will fix the lack of priests.

The large fee I proposed is for situation when your character wants an altar, but is feeling shy to become a priest.

[Ork]

Another suggestion that popped up on Discord thanks to Xarah -

An item (Holy Symbol) craftable only by clerics, and using valuble materials, that any class can use to consecrate an altar to their god.

I love both your suggestions!

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Reads like I am just piling on to the majority here, but I think removing that gift and making anyone able to do it for a cost is a great idea. Yes, you are taking away from the "find the priest to consecrate my altar" RP, but lets be serious here for a moment and ask if that really matters that much or if its just a cliché anyways at this point.

[Aeralad]

Why do you need altars of your deity again? Most piety is gained outside of praying afaik.
Like I seriously think you can just use as generic altar.

[Void]

but lets be serious here for a moment and

If we are to be serious, then you absolutely don't need an altar for your deity to gain piety. And if the gift is to be removed, then people who took it get the short end of the stick.

Grumpy's idea with craftable symbol is good. The idea of letting anyone easily consecrate is not.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

but lets be serious here for a moment and

If we are to be serious, then you absolutely don't need an altar for your deity to gain piety. And if the gift is to be removed, then people who took it get the short end of the stick.

Grumpy's idea with craftable symbol is good. The idea of letting anyone easily consecrate is not.

Nothing you said is wrong, but you are looking at it from a different angle then I am. To use an easy example, a group of drow stumble upon a shrine to Eilistraee in the underdark, and now they are looking for what's likely a traitor in their midst. That creates fun, rp, intrigue, ect. That never happens if the 1-3 good drow at any given time (an assumption on the number, I have no idea) are any class but clerics as it stands now. Compare that to the benefit of having to hunt for a cleric of most gods, who probably already have prominent shrines throughout the 4 servers, to make a shrine that's missing, which adds almost nothing save some "oh you like lurue too, are you a cleric?" RP that seems forced to begin with. Sure you can take the gift, but that's a half a ecl and something that's not a boost to spot, stealth, how much you can craft ect (most of which don't involve a ecl at all) and I can see why no one would want to do it.

So while I get from a purist point of view making anyone able to make a shrine and consecrate it to their god sounds bad, its way better for potential game play. And if we are going to start going down the purist rabbit hole, we should start with way more important stuff like dracoliches that are incredibly difficult to create being gifted to PMs just because, or Elven paladins, or....well, I could go on for days

[Void]

Nothing you said is wrong, but you are looking at it from a different angle then I am. To use an easy example, a group of drow stumble upon a shrine to Eilistraee in the underdark, and now they are looking for what's likely a traitor in their midst.

I'm not seeing a connection there. Most of the time you also do not know whose altar that is, unless it is explicitly written on it. Even with a gift of (un)holy. You only see that "it is consecrated to a different god", and it does not say to which one. Otherwise you'd get pointless desecration wars.

Sure you can take the gift, but that's a half a ecl

Arelith is a RP server. Why is 0.5 ECL supposed to matter?

its way better for potential game play.

I"m not seeing any "better" here, it just flat out removes a lot of interactions from the game and brings nothing. Like I said, anyone can take the gift or take cleric levels, and when everyone can easily consecrate that removes a lot of interactions from the game.

Grumpy's idea is also good, like I said.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I mean, if someone takes the time to make an altar to their god their is likely going to be some sort of description on it that gives clues as to who its to. Since, to repeat your point, there are better ways to get piety then praying for 16 minutes alone or whatever. Sorry you don't see the connection. Your point about ECL and the rp server is a cop out too, since if ECL doesn't matter why have it at all?

Clearly you are going to have your view, and clearly I am going to have mine. Clearly we are at a crossroads where neither of us is going to budge. Lets just move on and let others have a say, yeah?

[Void]

I mean, if someone takes the time to make an altar to their god their is likely going to be some sort of description on it that gives clues as to who its to.

No. If you're making a secret place of worship for your infernal patron, you'll leave bare minimum of clues there. Because of desecrators, because of "righteous" types, and so on.

It will definitely be a slab of rock with minimal number of clues. Now, if you become STRONG and influental, then you can afford a full blown temple with statues and elaborate ornaments. Until you're there, the places of worship are going to be secluded, simple, and ambiguous.

Same deal for the elistraean altar in underdark.

People will still steal, destroy or desecrate the altar anyway. Just in case.

since if ECL doesn't matter why have it at all?

Because actions should have a consequences and choices should matter. Ability to consecrate altars is something only priests normally do. You pay for being special. If having a bonus to spot is more important for your character than ability to consecrate altars, why should your character be allowed to consecrate altars?