What areas need more dungeons?

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Irongron
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What areas need more dungeons?

Post by Irongron » Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:08 pm

Having seen this topic:

viewtopic.php?f=37&t=27820 and another recently regarding levelling in Cordor,I was reminded that with the influx of players, there are some areas that likely need extra dungeons at specific level ranges. While I don't want to take yet more time away from the new city, I'm aware this is a frustrating issue for many players.

In regard to Cordor I greatly increased some spawn rates in some starter dungeons (sewers etc), though adding in more, albeit basic dungeons (as I say the best ones take time) and writ options is probably worthwhile.

Where is overcrowding of dungeons most of an issue, and at what level ranges? With some proper feedback I can likely add in one or two more options of a similar size and reward to those that are too frequently travelled.

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Re: What areas need more dungeons?

Post by Complex » Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:27 pm

It'd be nice to have options that substitute common routes.

Low levels that leave Cordor and want to loop an area only have two reasonable options, the Bramble Woods (with the 3 bosses that are all within 1 transition of each other) or the Darrowdeep Crypts.

I think the areas for pre-teens and early teens on Surface are fine (Crow's Nests has quite some options, even if some nearby places are incredibly popular like the Blood Moons or the Sea Bandits), but... you start to have issues again when Sibayad becomes your best option. Basically, from 12 to 20 the tombs are your the best you can do unless you want to take a gamble to try and find the Sandmasters. I say 20 but a bit earlier on you can go to the Orclands, which will be your best bet for early 20s.

The problem with this is that not only there are just two tombs you can reliably complete, but a lot of people clear them to loot the chests. I have seen a lot of high level people sneaking around or clearing it completely because they were trying to get some pricey jewels or gear to sell, and with that your best teen area is not only crowded by those who want the XP but also by those who want to take all the treasure.

And then... the same happens with the Orclands, but with a minor difference. Instead of being there to take the loot, a lot of people level to 30 there because it's easy, safe and has a lot of density, so you have people looping the Orclands for hours and hours while you may be trying to complete your 3 writs.

I would add more things for Sibayad (as well as for the low levels) or change some numbers around in the Surface to make its dungeons worthwhile. Why would I waste my time with traps and reduced stats and psionics and angry trees and chances to become a werewolf (amongst other things) when there exist options that are not only less complicated but way more productive? I think that's why some places become overcrowded, they are easier, and better and overall more enjoyable.
Last edited by Complex on Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:47 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: What areas need more dungeons?

Post by Drowboy » Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:28 pm

Not Cordor related, but the last half of writs in Andunor are wild. Spriggans, Deep Glen, the Slaver's Tower to an extent, and the Crinti seem to be, incidentally, early-to-mid epic grind-spots, or in the case of Crinti, right next to one. So if you're a level 16 party trying to do those, it's likely to have been farmed out pretty relentlessly by half the server.

So more dungeons in either range (low-to-mid epics and 15-20ish) that aren't necessarily near each other would be nice.
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Re: What areas need more dungeons?

Post by Void » Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:39 pm

Irongron wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:08 pm
Having seen this topic:

viewtopic.php?f=37&t=27820 and another recently regarding levelling in Cordor,I was reminded that with the influx of players, there are some areas that likely need extra dungeons at specific level ranges. While I don't want to take yet more time away from the new city, I'm aware this is a frustrating issue for many players.

In regard to Cordor I greatly increased some spawn rates in some starter dungeons (sewers etc), though adding in more, albeit basic dungeons (as I say the best ones take time) and writ options is probably worthwhile.

Where is overcrowding of dungeons most of an issue, and at what level ranges? With some proper feedback I can likely add in one or two more options of a similar size and reward to those that are too frequently travelled.
Overcrowding is the worst at range 1-4, maybe 1-6. Past that people quickly spread out.

The worst area is cordor sewers, where people routinely interfere with each other's writs, apparently similar issue happens in UD in Bonefields.

Regarding more dungeons, I think it would be great if under cordor sewers there was another area, called, say, "Ancient sewers" which would be a humongous, huge, massive maze filled with traps and enemies, but due to its size it wouldn't be possible to quickly finish it... and at the same time it were aimed at very low level players. This doesn't really need a writ for, it is just at low levels there isn't a huge area to explore, and someone who is poorly suited for combat will end up looting same chests in the same areas again and again. Would be cool to have some sort of ruins to wander in.

Something similar could be done in UD, I guess.

Basically when I was playing nwn2 pws one of my favorite things were slowly working my way through a maze and looting chests in there. There are amazingly well done areas on areliths that fit this kind of description (cordor crypts is very well done), but they're of higher level range and it woudl be be cool if something like that was available early on.
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Re: What areas need more dungeons?

Post by Dragonovith » Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:46 pm

What if instead of only Earthkin, all races could start in the docks of Brogendenstein, like Cordor? Brogendenstein has some low level writs that pay very well, but they are few. There are also some writs in the Grotto, but as far as I know, non-Earthkin can't use the elevator to reach the village. Adding one or two low level dungeons to Brogendenstein could be an interesting idea that maybe would help easing the pressure on the low level dungeons in Cordor. And if you add a source portal to Brogendenstein (the only one in the settlement is locked inside a quarter), low level characters would have an easier time traveling between both settlements to do their writs.

Also, while at it, I'm not sure if it is still an issue, but I've seen someone recently complaining again that the Lake/Littoral Caves in Brog don't spawn any NPCs for level 3 characters.

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Re: What areas need more dungeons?

Post by Wuthering » Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:09 am

I think the server could use a wilderness starting area (in the jungles perhaps?) with dungeons and writs for wild elves, wild dwarves, ghostwise halflings, barbarians, druids and other uncivilized characters who wouldn't start in the big city.

Could also be nice if instead of starting on the dock of Cordor, Sencliff or Skal you had the option for some level 2 and 3 writs on a ship heading to your destination (killing rats of course, fighting off the world's crappiest level 1 pirates or stopping a mutiny, etc.) Make it so once you're off the ship you can never get back on and that could ease crowding a little.

I do agree the Underdark has a grinding problem. Lots of writ areas are overrun with circle-grinding epics who have no sympathy for your level 16 and their quota. It seems like there are at least four dungeons around the Tribal Caves area (including the crystal caves and the spider pit and other things I half remember because nobody goes there) that have no writs and are good for mid-teens.

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Re: What areas need more dungeons?

Post by Dr. B » Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:12 am

In the Underdark, and off the top of my head: Bonefields, Stingers, Crinti, Deep Giants, and the entire route running from the Ice Road portal to the Peninsula Caverns. Pretty much all of them have the advantage of giving a relatively high XP return for little challenge, with high spawn rates, and being pretty easy to circle grind in terms of layout. The Bonefields, additionally, have the distinction of being pretty much the only area with those features within easy walking distance of the city. There's really no other area so readily accessible that gives such nice returns on XP, which explains why it's almost always trafficked. The Derro lair is full of stun traps and also lacks a circular layout, and so gets fewer visitors, and is slightly less rewarding it terms of XP yield.

I'll name others as they pop into my head.

A dungeon expansion would be great, provided they were created so as to be roughly equal in desirability.

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Re: What areas need more dungeons?

Post by Nitro » Thu Apr 02, 2020 2:03 am

Both Cordor and Andunor are in need of either more dungeons, or retooling the less attractive ones to be more attractive. Playing during primetime hours will see all the low level dungeons around Cordor/Andunor completely camped out constantly, the sewer rats boss more or less dies on cooldown and that's when he's lucky enough to even get to spawn without people coming in through either of the dungeon entrances and blocking respawns.

The 12-16 region suffers a similar problem, there's a lot of dungeons around for that level range, but most of them are a pain to go to/through for one or several reasons, which leads to a congestion around the Sibayad dungeons for that level range.

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Re: What areas need more dungeons?

Post by Drogo Gyslain » Thu Apr 02, 2020 3:01 am

Nitro wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 2:03 am
Both Cordor and Andunor are in need of either more dungeons, or retooling the less attractive ones to be more attractive.
I will weigh in on this and I would say that the existing dungeons recieving a facelift similar to how the Crag got and expanded would be the route to go!

Big contenders for this would be:

Cordor Archives
New Sewer Locations
The Bonefields
The Andunor Silver Mines

These are some of the locations with either the shortest, or the most boring landscapes possible, and could easily be made much more interesting, or expanded upon with new caverns, passages, new open doors, and graphical updates that would bring more relevance to existing content in opposition to creating entirely wholy new dungeons.

It can even be fit into the RP with writs to explore new sections of each of the dungeons, adding into the roleplay of exploring new forgotten sewerlines, or a new archive cabinet wing that spans underneath the Supreme Court building of Cordor's Court.

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Re: What areas need more dungeons?

Post by Cybren » Thu Apr 02, 2020 4:56 am

Complex wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:27 pm
It'd be nice to have options that substitute common routes.

Low levels that leave Cordor and want to loop an area only have two reasonable options, the Bramble Woods (with the 3 bosses that are all within 1 transition of each other) or the Darrowdeep Crypts.

I think the areas for pre-teens and early teens on Surface are fine (Crow's Nests has quite some options, even if some nearby places are incredibly popular like the Blood Moons or the Sea Bandits), but... you start to have issues again when Sibayad becomes your best option. Basically, from 12 to 20 the tombs are your the best you can do unless you want to take a gamble to try and find the Sandmasters. I say 20 but a bit earlier on you can go to the Orclands, which will be your best bet for early 20s.

The problem with this is that not only there are just two tombs you can reliably complete, but a lot of people clear them to loot the chests. I have seen a lot of high level people sneaking around or clearing it completely because they were trying to get some pricey jewels or gear to sell, and with that your best teen area is not only crowded by those who want the XP but also by those who want to take all the treasure.

And then... the same happens with the Orclands, but with a minor difference. Instead of being there to take the loot, a lot of people level to 30 there because it's easy, safe and has a lot of density, so you have people looping the Orclands for hours and hours while you may be trying to complete your 3 writs.

I would add more things for Sibayad (as well as for the low levels) or change some numbers around in the Surface to make its dungeons worthwhile. Why would I waste my time with traps and reduced stats and psionics and angry trees and chances to become a werewolf (amongst other things) when there exist options that are not only less complicated but way more productive? I think that's why some places become overcrowded, they are easier, and better and overall more enjoyable.
I want to say I agree with this 100%, but will add that exacerbating this is the mechanics around grinding for materials and cash. The Orclands, for example, are one of the best places above ground to grind to 30, but it's also one of the best places to grind for money, since you can continually loop it, and there's three chests in the cave to loot if you really wanted them. A lot of the best places to get basic crafting comps are also low level writ areas (the iron or coal mines, for example), and certain crafting materials require you to go to a really specific place as they drop extremely infrequently in epic dungeons (blood of a magic creature, for example). This, combined with the rune chest timer mechanic, puts level 30 characters in a really awkward spot when it comes to getting money. People will run a single epic dungeon once, then go to a place they can circle grind efficiently and loop there for money.

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Re: What areas need more dungeons?

Post by Hazard » Thu Apr 02, 2020 4:58 am

"What areas need more dung..."

Love that cut off, disappointed we're not talking about adding more goblin and gibberling dung to places.

Some areas that could use more dungeons, I definitely think Andunor. It is a very popular place, and almost every nearby dungeon at low levels is always occupied. There is a very palpable sense of relief as you get farther and farther away from the city and access to more remote dungeons, where you will be able to do what you came to do. Andunor I think would benefit from 2 extra dungeons for levels 4-8, nearby.

Cordor is much the same with the low level experience, but on the surface the problem is lessened somewhat by there being other settlements to just be in, and areas being so far apart that you end up bumping into less people. For Cordor, I think 1 extra dungeon with decent XP for levels between 4-8.

These levels are really the toughest because you can't handle tougher places, but the places you can handle are always very occupied.

Or rather than adding any new dungeons at all, maybe we could bump up the adventure XP per tick you get from being in taverns!
I think I would much rather that, because I end up with obscene amounts of adventure XP that I can never seem to get rid of. Currently you get what, 50xp or something? Could double it while in places of rest.

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Re: What areas need more dungeons?

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu Apr 02, 2020 5:50 am

Cant really speak for anywhere except surface and skal, and sibayad where I think the dungeon selection is huge and in a good spot. But as I said in the Cordor thread, expanding the cargo ships with the rat tails to relieve the pressure off the sewers will address the problem directly and probably wont take long, with the new city's development in mind. Something as simple as adding another floor to each boat and maybe a boss, then slap a writ label on it and it should do the kick.
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Re: What areas need more dungeons?

Post by JubJub » Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:26 pm

UD could use a couple more, seems like from 17 -20 the writs never change so by the time your're lvl 18 or so you have already done all the writs. So it's basicly just repeating the same writs (usually the three that earn the most coin) over and over until 21.

Maybe remove the derro temple door, and make the derro temple it's own writ. Sort of like the grimlocks where there is one writ for killing grimlocks outside the temple then a writ for inside the grimlock temple.

The under the slime temple area is really underused, it's a fun place but few people see a need to go there. Many in the UD still see RDI and even the orclands as the places to go.

Or a few older dungeons may just need some updating. My minotaur has been rping trying to free the minotaurs from Morghunn. As the minotaur level and then you go down to fight demons always seemed a bit odd. Maybe that could be split in two sort of like the minmir caves and then the gnoll camp was added. Just an example.

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Re: What areas need more dungeons?

Post by Straxus » Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:12 pm

In my honest opinion,and being a relatively new player, it is extreamly hard to gauge how hard a dungeon will be, unless you get a writ, and are given such information (ideal level)

When you first arrive, the sewers and the boats are mentioned. These are perfect for newer characters. But, once you hit 7th to 8th level, they become more a run-through (unless you go deeper) and the next dungeons are extreamly difficult.

Now granted, I have run through everyone of them alone, the ones surrounding and within Coridor. But once I started to venture out, I just get dropped by something epic.

I am now 13th level, and feel kinda stuck doing the same loops over and over again.
It is not always an option to group up, though I am not against it.

I think something as simple as more spawns along the roads could spice up some of the in between levels, the further out you go the harder they get.

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Re: What areas need more dungeons?

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Sun Apr 05, 2020 11:13 pm

I think we need more lower level dungeons in general, yeah. This might just be me, but because epic level dungeons are obviously after the long road of getting to epic... they all still feel pretty special to me.

But the low level stuff is such a drag. Low level exploration in general is fairly weak. I often find the judge of whether a character is successful or not is whether I can get them over the "Cordor hump" and out into the world.

Although, I think there's a large of crisis of identity when it comes to some of Arelith's world design (particularly the surface). Dungeons need to be grounded and centered around areas of safety that can act as "hubs" for players to interact with. I think there needs to be more of a difference between 'overland' stuff (like travelling), and 'dungeons', that are nearby self-contained and layered places to explore.

..that is to say, I want more claustophobic verticality in Arelith's dungeons, and less area bloat.
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Re: What areas need more dungeons?

Post by Aeralad » Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:47 am

I'm a relatively new player still so there is that aspect to my point of view if you like that. I'll use Skal as an example since I know it well.
I feel that the exploration is limited in lower levels and starting levels, and the idea of Arelith being massive isn't felt until a certain level.
That might be like "oh hey yeah that's what we were going for kind of", but I think most of the people replying might've had this idea in mind in their replies.
So in Skal you start out and you can really go to a few areas - north, the cave, the rats, and below the longhouse. Ghost wood is a writ you have access to, but it is often crowded and also includes level drain AND requires +1 eb or attack with some of those guys. The lake and beyond the other directions you can run into units that area stealthy and seem statistically run away from early levels.
So, to me it's just the abstract concept of starting off and saying "hey you know...I've only got a few places I could really go."
If you want to keep it that way fine with me as well, but that's sort of how I feel about this question.
Conceptually, maybe we can think of ways to go against that.
I did notice that sailing with pirates idk how but it feels like a mini infinite dungeon vibe which is cool, it seems like that has variety innately. I wonder if you can have a bunch of people or maybe people in low level ranges everywhere engaging with that system all at once?
You might even be able to say..."hey low levels, this is thoraminds guide to the planes." That way you can bring planar travel and stuff into it which I think would be pretty fantastic.

But yeah I understand if you want to originally restrict people for this or that. Due to me going around in those few places in Skal a BUNCH though, and conceptually with regards to this question, that's my opinion.
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Re: What areas need more dungeons?

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:54 am

Seems like a good thread to again mention again that lowbie quests at the crows nest would not only help with lowbie over crowding, but be a huge boon to people starting in Sencliff.

Some simple ideas:

"Find Joey the sailors missing ship" where you have to catch a boat out to an island to find Jimmy four fingers, the guy who stole Joey's ship (I hate coming up with names). You could even have a story behind why Jimmy took it, like he believes the ship is his, and make him non hostile on approach with a chance to persuade him to give it back and go through the cordorian law with his dispute.

"slaughter the baby panthers" where baby panthers are eating fish and crabs from the coast and shallows that local fishermen rely on profit from.

"get me some quartz!" where a local merchant hired the guild to go to an island near the end of the Archipelago inhabited by a small tribe of natives to get their quartz (or whatever mineral) and since they think its going to get bloody they are pawning the job off on you. Any quartz brought back nets extra gold.

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