Battlefield + Darkness change.

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Void
Posts: 1600
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Re: Battlefield + Darkness change.

Post by Void » Fri Apr 03, 2020 9:11 am

Shrouded Wanderer wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 5:54 am
Trueflames certainly need some other protections. I'm more of a fan of them getting some abjuration necessities over darkness spam any day of the week.
No abjuration or any other school for trueflames. It betrays the idea behind the class.

The reason for complaint is not "We want moar powah!", but that this fix is senseless, does not match lore and feels like a "plug", akin to arrow deflected trolls I mentioned.

-------

I've looked at d20srd and found bunch of spells that have limited defensive capabilities.

Wind Wall:
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/windWall.htm

Tiny Hut:
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/tinyHut.htm

Resilient Sphere:
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resilientSphere.htm

Wall of Force:
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfForce.htm

Force Cage:
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forcecage.htm

Mage's Sword:
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesSword.htm

Telekinetic Sphere:
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/telekineticSphere.htm

Honestly, access to Wind Wall and Wall of Force would likely get rid of the need for Darkness. Mage's sword would also be nice to have, because number of useful evocation spells at 7-9 is low, and a replacement for the dagger would be nice.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

Shadowy Reality
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Re: Battlefield + Darkness change.

Post by Shadowy Reality » Fri Apr 03, 2020 11:11 am

I don't understand why we are looking at pnp when True Flamers are not a pnp concept.

You get infinite boom spells at the cost of your defense. You had a loophole in darkness, now you don't. Darkness trivialized pretty much everything, being able to cast that infinite times only amplified that.

As other people have mentioned, you get someone to party with you and you are still Snuggle a Bugbear amazing. I leveled like this with a friend playing a True Flamer, it was cakewalk all over the server.

Why do we need to make True Flamers able to solo? I cannot easily solo content with a Dex Rogue either. Some classes, builds and paths solo better than others, some don't solo at all, that's just how it is. I understand that this may affect the enjoyment of the class, but that is just the nature of the path.

Void
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Re: Battlefield + Darkness change.

Post by Void » Fri Apr 03, 2020 11:37 am

Shadowy Reality wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 11:11 am
I don't understand why we are looking at pnp when
Did you read the arrow deflecting part of the opening post?

Let's put it this way.
"Starting now all humans get 100% physical damage reduction, SR 50, permanent true seeing, and fast healing 50. At level 1. But it will only affect npcs".
Would you agree to this kind of change? It is roughly the same deal. I mean it's not like it will cause problem to anyone. Especially not those people trying to do sewer gang quest.

Monster abilities are meant to be reasonable and have some backing in the lore and not arbitrarily chosen at random.
Undead are also one of the most common enemy types with truckload of immunities.

This change is senseless. If someone wanted to make this area harder, like I said, mages with ultravision would do the trick. Instead, ALL undead get the new ability ALL over the world.

--------

I will definitely find another area and reenact world war I on it all by my mighty self and murder everything on it. But. This place - the battlefield - was actually fun. Wicked fun. Pure destruction kind of thing. There isn't another area like that on the server. I'd go there and reenact hell on earth even if those everspawning skeletons were giving no gold and no xp. And that got plugged with a widely applied fix that affects ALL undead on the entirety of the server and has far reaching consequences for anyone who ever wanted to use darkness, and not by finely tuning the area challenge (which acted this way for at least 3 years). And that brings bad memories of arrow deflecting trolls with with 30 saves in CR14 zones. Which is I was trying to convey.

And honestly, If I wanted to solo easier, I would've played something else instead.
Last edited by Void on Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Shadowy Reality
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Re: Battlefield + Darkness change.

Post by Shadowy Reality » Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:08 pm

Void wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 11:37 am
Shadowy Reality wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 11:11 am
I don't understand why we are looking at pnp when
Did you read the arrow deflecting part of the opening post?

Let's put it this way.
"Starting now all humans get 100% physical damage reduction, SR 50, permanent true seeing, and fast healing 50. At level 1. But it will only affect npcs".
Would you agree to this kind of change? It is roughly the same deal. I mean it's not like it will cause problem to anyone. Especially not those people trying to do sewer gang quest.

Monster abilities are meant to be reasonable and have some backing in the lore and not arbitrarily chosen at random.
Undead are also one of the most common enemy types with truckload of immunities.

This change is senseless. If someone wanted to make this area harder, like I said, mages with ultravision would do the trick. Instead, ALL undead get the new ability ALL over the world.
Why is it senseless for epic undead to have a means to see in magical darkness? Darkness is a level 2 spell, it is not that exotic. Senseless was what darkness did to monsters before. It is entirely senseless that monsters above CR 15 to be entirely defeated and rendered harmless by a level 2 spell.

Your True Flamer is not obeying pnp rules, why should NPCs? Sometimes these changes (like your deflect arrow example) are the easiest way for the developers to add some challenge. Sure, they do not check out when it comes to pnp, but Arelith is its own setting, with its own balance, it does not follow pnp standards.

Void
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Re: Battlefield + Darkness change.

Post by Void » Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:11 pm

Shadowy Reality wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:08 pm
Why is it senseless for epic undead to have a means to see in magical darkness?
Because those aren't epic undead, and because the change will apply to ALL undead on the entirety of the server, including low level ones. Does it make sense for a level 1 skeleton to see in magical darkness?

The CR of battlefield is in ballpark of level 14-level18. That's when you can get a writ for the place. Battlefield was already spawning necromages with ultravision before, this is nothing new, and a mage using ultravision made sense. However, even necromage is not an epic undead. Their level is below 20.

Reaching epic areas often involves planewalking. Battlefield is not epic.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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Hazard
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Re: Battlefield + Darkness change.

Post by Hazard » Fri Apr 03, 2020 6:08 pm

Void wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:11 pm
Shadowy Reality wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:08 pm
Why is it senseless for epic undead to have a means to see in magical darkness?
Because those aren't epic undead, and because the change will apply to ALL undead on the entirety of the server, including low level ones. Does it make sense for a level 1 skeleton to see in magical darkness?

The CR of battlefield is in ballpark of level 14-level18. That's when you can get a writ for the place. Battlefield was already spawning necromages with ultravision before, this is nothing new, and a mage using ultravision made sense. However, even necromage is not an epic undead. Their level is below 20.

Reaching epic areas often involves planewalking. Battlefield is not epic.
To me it solely about the change not making sense and being inconsistent. Undead cannot see through magical darkness. The change is incorrect and unnecessary. Ultravision is the perfect alternative. If the powers that be really don't want people with darkness farming the battlefield, we can just have the necromages spam ultra vision on themselves and everyone else... Or even spawn in with it, hell at least that makes sense then and isn't messing with ALL the undead (except player ones, weirdly).

Or if undead CAN see through magical darkness, then all undead, including player controlled ones, need to be updated in the same way.

Void
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Re: Battlefield + Darkness change.

Post by Void » Fri Apr 03, 2020 6:31 pm

Hazard wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 6:08 pm
Void wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:11 pm
Shadowy Reality wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:08 pm
Why is it senseless for epic undead to have a means to see in magical darkness?
Because those aren't epic undead, and because the change will apply to ALL undead on the entirety of the server, including low level ones. Does it make sense for a level 1 skeleton to see in magical darkness?

The CR of battlefield is in ballpark of level 14-level18. That's when you can get a writ for the place. Battlefield was already spawning necromages with ultravision before, this is nothing new, and a mage using ultravision made sense. However, even necromage is not an epic undead. Their level is below 20.

Reaching epic areas often involves planewalking. Battlefield is not epic.
To me it solely about the change not making sense and being inconsistent. Undead cannot see through magical darkness. The change is incorrect and unnecessary. Ultravision is the perfect alternative.
I completely agree with all of this.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

Wuthering
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Re: Battlefield + Darkness change.

Post by Wuthering » Fri Apr 03, 2020 7:22 pm

Void wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 11:37 am
And that got plugged with a widely applied fix that affects ALL undead on the entirety of the server and has far reaching consequences for anyone who ever wanted to use darkness, and not by finely tuning the area challenge (which acted this way for at least 3 years).
Like assassins who are rather terrible against undead already and rely on darkness heavily.

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Sockss
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Re: Battlefield + Darkness change.

Post by Sockss » Fri Apr 03, 2020 7:43 pm

Hazard wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 6:08 pm
Void wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:11 pm
Shadowy Reality wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:08 pm
Why is it senseless for epic undead to have a means to see in magical darkness?
Because those aren't epic undead, and because the change will apply to ALL undead on the entirety of the server, including low level ones. Does it make sense for a level 1 skeleton to see in magical darkness?

The CR of battlefield is in ballpark of level 14-level18. That's when you can get a writ for the place. Battlefield was already spawning necromages with ultravision before, this is nothing new, and a mage using ultravision made sense. However, even necromage is not an epic undead. Their level is below 20.

Reaching epic areas often involves planewalking. Battlefield is not epic.
To me it solely about the change not making sense and being inconsistent. Undead cannot see through magical darkness. The change is incorrect and unnecessary. Ultravision is the perfect alternative. If the powers that be really don't want people with darkness farming the battlefield, we can just have the necromages spam ultra vision on themselves and everyone else... Or even spawn in with it, hell at least that makes sense then and isn't messing with ALL the undead (except player ones, weirdly).

Or if undead CAN see through magical darkness, then all undead, including player controlled ones, need to be updated in the same way.
Yes, this is my problem with it. (Similar to why I have a problem with the epic summon -> greater sanctuary & vice-versa interaction. It just doesn't make sense and doesn't fix any problems.)

I think it was probably intended as another shadowmage buff (or a precursor to it, rather).

I wonder if we can get some feedback from the dev behind it?
Thankfully this team is no longer being used.

Sockss#5567 for nwn mechanics questions.

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