AA Love

[Zavandar]

Hey.

AA could use a little love imo. I think it would help with their build variety if they could get craft ammo at lvl 1, like the archer path for rangers. Even make it scale at the same rate, with 10 levels allowing the crafting of mdam arrows.

Would that be hard to implement? I am so ignorant of coding.

[Shaeris]

I wholeheartedly endorse this. It makes no sense whatsoever that any character truly committed to archery would be incapable of fashioning together their own ammunition, nor is it at all practical to play such a character and find yourself dependent on a particular ranger or their shop.

[Drowboy]

Be cool if imbue arrow applied to assembly templates, too.

[the grim yeeter]

Also, it's a bit strange to think that, on Arelith, ranger archers are superior to AAs in most ways.

[three wolf moon]

I play a ranger archer, and I've pretty much had to put non-archer rangers on what I've come to call Arrow Welfare, which is just me continuously making arrows and distributing them to people who aren't an epic ranger archer because crafting them the normal way is so painful.

I feel like the "craft ammo" feature was added in the first place to alleviate some of the pain that comes with playing an archer character, so I don't see why other archery-based classes don't get this feature. It's kind of sad to watch other people struggle for no real reason, more than one person I knew was playing a non-archer ranger rolled their character because of the ammunition struggle.

Please fix this. Just give craft ammo to people who have weapon focus in a ranged weapon, period. It's such a small advantage for a huge QoL improvement for anyone playing a ranged character.

[Ork]

Please fix this. Just give craft ammo to people who have weapon focus in a ranged weapon, period. It's such a small advantage for a huge QoL improvement for anyone playing a ranged character.

Love it.

[cowboy]

Please fix this. Just give craft ammo to people who have weapon focus in a ranged weapon, period. It's such a small advantage for a huge QoL improvement for anyone playing a ranged character.

Love it.

[Imperatrix]

Please fix this. Just give craft ammo to people who have weapon focus in a ranged weapon, period. It's such a small advantage for a huge QoL improvement for anyone playing a ranged character.

Love it.

Agreed. Also giving AA's some kind of unique interaction with imbue arrow and assembly templates would be neat.

[AstralUniverse]

Please fix this. Just give craft ammo to people who have weapon focus in a ranged weapon, period. It's such a small advantage for a huge QoL improvement for anyone playing a ranged character.

Amen to that.

Or, if ammo crafting really must stay unique for archer path, then at least remove most of the coal, iron and silver from those recipes.

I also like the idea of having imbue arrow interact with templates somehow. In my opinion it would be cool if it worked identical to flame arrow allowing up to 1d10 elemental damage at AA lvl... 15 or something. Stream applicable.

[Aeralad]

Contrary opinion warning.

Range is the most superior strategy ever devised for dnd. Every time somebody makes a suggestion other people go "this class so op it needs a nerf."
I would say in this case, it IS the proper way of starting to think about it. That is, that range users are so op lol.
People have been so concerned with balance among a variety of threads so I just really thought this should be addressed here.
I was thinking maybe remove the craft arrow option from archer path and increase the costs for ammunition lol. There's too many arrows!

Ranged users can literally damage enemies while the enemy can't do anything about it.
I'm relatively new to the server so there might have been this massive conclave discussion I don't know about where it was decided once and for all why people should go strength instead of dexterity, but I'd like to know and see that argument presented again.
What advantages specifically do strength characters have over dex characters? Can anyone share a link?

Range as a strategy is SO OP if any thread needs to have the "this type is so op lol" statement, it should be here.
Yes, I have crafted ranged on the server. I didn't find it constricting enough. Less arrows not more lol.

[godhand-]

maybe i'm on the inverse of this equation, but i played a shuriken monk for a while, and i had to manually create all my ammunitions.
From memory, the material requirement is the same/similiar - Less the wood.

It honestly wasn't that hard, i still managed to have an inventory page full of a mix of steel/damask munitions. - This was a Dex character with 10 strength, yes it sucked, but it took 10 minutes out of my play time /day to craft a set of munitions to last me most of the day, and i can guarantee you a shuriken monk goes through ammo quicker than an archer does.

if your character can't produce its own ammunitions by the time your level 7 or higher to hit AA - you made poor trade skill choices.

[Zavandar]

I'm not a fan of tedium, which is why I made this suggestion. The ability to play a character with a bow being locked behind tedium is annoying. Craft ammo and templates were a huge step in the right direction. You still have to do work with them, but it lets you have different/better arrows at certain levels of investment. But adding crafting the ammunition on top of that is very tedious. Compare that to spell components, and arcanists have it WAY easier.

There is another thread already discussing the potency of archers and talk pertaining to that should go there. This proposal is QoL. It doesn't make archers any stronger.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

FWIW, I play my archer with regular arrows, or iron/ice/fire arrows I find, and a healthy percentage of rogue levels. Ask me how far thirty feet is in game on my screen- I can draw you a radius, and I promise I'm just inside it unloading obscene amounts of damage on anything except a pale master.

I occasionally buy "nice" ammunition with two or three damage types on it. Those one or two stacks will last me months. I'm stingy with them. I don't need them- except when the pale masters, undead, or elementals show up. No one uses golems, so constructs aren't really an issue.

I feel like "good" ammunition should probably be a little bit rarer than it is- but I'm not at all against the suggestion that wf: ranged should at least offer some kind of ammo crafting options, either.

[Aeralad]

I'm not a fan of tedium, which is why I made this suggestion. The ability to play a character with a bow being locked behind tedium is annoying. Craft ammo and templates were a huge step in the right direction. You still have to do work with them, but it lets you have different/better arrows at certain levels of investment. But adding crafting the ammunition on top of that is very tedious. Compare that to spell components, and arcanists have it WAY easier.

There is another thread already discussing the potency of archers and talk pertaining to that should go there. This proposal is QoL. It doesn't make archers any stronger.

Actually, I can agree with that. Balance another way besides tedium. Agreed.

[Wuthering]

I've said it before.. I wish merchants would just sell bronze arrow bundles.

You can limit damask arrows to the archer path, sure, whatever, but bronze arrow bundles really ought to be available to everyone without having to craft them.

[RogueUnicorn]

Also unpopular opinion?:

I play an AA and they're already pretty OP. AB easily 62 with plenty of epic feats to spare on skill focuses or just making your AB higher. The damage is nutty as well and the +10 arrows pierce any DR. It's like a ranged weapon master. You def don't want my AA chasing you down on her horse!

Ranged probably needs a nerf more than anything.

If you're struggling to play an AA you're probably making a couple of mistakes like:
-not riding a horse
-allowing potential opponents to come within 100 feet of you
-not running away in order to come back 5 minutes later and snipe at a distance
-not stocked up on absolutely nasty complex template arrows
-thinking stealth is useful for an archer

[Zavandar]

yeah i just want them to be able to make arrows once per rest man

[Archnon]

I mean, I sort of agree that bronze ammo could be sold at a select few merchants, but why not take the ranger three level dip. It nets you all the feats that you want for the class plus the devs in an obvious nod to the synergy made it count towards the arcane part.

Dipping is a big part of the game and you need to choose your classes wisely. There are going to be trade offs. This is one of those tradeoffs.

[Zavandar]

there's dipping for mechanical reasons then there's dipping for convenience/avoiding tedium. and to get mdam arrows, that means 10 ranger. i'm not saying those 10 ranger levels are useless or bad. this proposal is specifically to expand build variety. you're already tied to ranger, bard, and (lol) sorc.

[Sockss]

Also unpopular opinion?:

I play an AA and they're already pretty OP. AB easily 62 with plenty of epic feats to spare on skill focuses or just making your AB higher. The damage is nutty as well and the +10 arrows pierce any DR. It's like a ranged weapon master. You def don't want my AA chasing you down on her horse!

Ranged probably needs a nerf more than anything.

If you're struggling to play an AA you're probably making a couple of mistakes like:
-not riding a horse
-allowing potential opponents to come within 100 feet of you
-not running away in order to come back 5 minutes later and snipe at a distance
-not stocked up on absolutely nasty complex template arrows
-thinking stealth is useful for an archer

Objective facts. rather than unpopular opinions:

AA's are worse than other ranged options (clerics/ranger archer) for damage in the average AC band.
AA's are also worse than other ranged options (clerics/ranger archer) for damage in every band when you account for HIPS / domains/tempbuffs.
Being on a horse is detrimental to an archer.
Stealth is excellent for an archer, even better than it is for a melee.

But we're not talking about that!

AA's could stand to gain some QoL and have the tedium of constant arrow crafting removed from them. Hell, all ranged builds should be able to craft ammunition for free.

[cowboy]

hard agree

nothing evil would come from

IF = has missle, thrown

GET = 1/day create ammo at same scaling as a ranger archer.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

I've said it before.. I wish merchants would just sell bronze arrow bundles.

You can limit damask arrows to the archer path, sure, whatever, but bronze arrow bundles really ought to be available to everyone without having to craft them.

I think this is a solid middle ground solution.

[RogueUnicorn]

Also unpopular opinion?:

I play an AA and they're already pretty OP. AB easily 62 with plenty of epic feats to spare on skill focuses or just making your AB higher. The damage is nutty as well and the +10 arrows pierce any DR. It's like a ranged weapon master. You def don't want my AA chasing you down on her horse!

Ranged probably needs a nerf more than anything.

If you're struggling to play an AA you're probably making a couple of mistakes like:
-not riding a horse
-allowing potential opponents to come within 100 feet of you
-not running away in order to come back 5 minutes later and snipe at a distance
-not stocked up on absolutely nasty complex template arrows
-thinking stealth is useful for an archer

Objective facts. rather than unpopular opinions:

AA's are worse than other ranged options (clerics/ranger archer) for damage in the average AC band.
AA's are also worse than other ranged options (clerics/ranger archer) for damage in every band when you account for HIPS / domains/tempbuffs.
Being on a horse is detrimental to an archer.
Stealth is excellent for an archer, even better than it is for a melee.

But we're not talking about that!

AA's could stand to gain some QoL and have the tedium of constant arrow crafting removed from them. Hell, all ranged builds should be able to craft ammunition for free.

1) AA's likely get a higher damage output in DPR due to significantly higher AB
2) See 1, and also, the damage output between a Ranger archer and an AA archer is at most 4 damage per arrow vs certain specified favored enemies.
3) No, if you have Mounted Archery and ride a horse you actually get +2 AB, this is a well known mechanic
4) I disagree. A well played archer in PVP should be extremely mobile. If you're relying on stealth that means you're slow and will be in the range of anyone with high detection or True Seeing.

Secondly, MOST AA builds at least dip into Ranger and can produce their own Bronze or Steel arrows anyway. Not sure what sort of wonky build y'all are playing...

[Sockss]

1) AA's likely get a higher damage output in DPR due to significantly higher AB
2) See 1, and also, the damage output between a Ranger archer and an AA archer is at most 4 damage per arrow vs certain specified favored enemies.
3) No, if you have Mounted Archery and ride a horse you actually get +2 AB, this is a well known mechanic
4) I disagree. A well played archer in PVP should be extremely mobile. If you're relying on stealth that means you're slow and will be in the range of anyone with high detection or True Seeing.

Secondly, MOST AA builds at least dip into Ranger and can produce their own Bronze or Steel arrows anyway. Not sure what sort of wonky build y'all are playing...

Wew.

1) I'm aware of the AB increase. They are better vs very high AC things that aren't common on arelith (pre-nerf PM's would have been a candidate but that's about it). They don't get a higher damage. Plot it on a graph. In the average AC range.

Even in the upper echelons they output more damage with hips if you consider an average FF reduction of ~12 for the opening flurry. More if you consider high AC builds make heavy use of dodge from divine shield.

2) A maxed out AA receives 10 damage. A ranger receives an average of 18 (6 archer, 5 favoured, 7 bane) damage. That's 8 more damage.
3) https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Mounted_archery (There might be a bug with mounted combat that gives you 1 ab when you're ranged, when it shouldn't, which even so puts you at -1.)
30% max movement speed still necessitates the use of haste in combat. It's a bit of an advantage, I admit, but given the larger hitbox and requirement to haste anyway it amounts to a complete detriment.
4) Stealth doesn't necessitate immobility, or being in anyones range.

Very wonky.

[RogueUnicorn]

1) AA's likely get a higher damage output in DPR due to significantly higher AB
2) See 1, and also, the damage output between a Ranger archer and an AA archer is at most 4 damage per arrow vs certain specified favored enemies.
3) No, if you have Mounted Archery and ride a horse you actually get +2 AB, this is a well known mechanic
4) I disagree. A well played archer in PVP should be extremely mobile. If you're relying on stealth that means you're slow and will be in the range of anyone with high detection or True Seeing.

Secondly, MOST AA builds at least dip into Ranger and can produce their own Bronze or Steel arrows anyway. Not sure what sort of wonky build y'all are playing...

Wew.

1) I'm aware of the AB increase. They are better vs very high AC things that aren't common on arelith (pre-nerf PM's would have been a candidate but that's about it). They don't get a higher damage. Plot it on a graph. In the average AC range.

Even in the upper echelons they output more damage with hips if you consider an average FF reduction of ~12 for the opening flurry. More if you consider high AC builds make heavy use of dodge from divine shield.

2) A maxed out AA receives 10 damage. A ranger receives an average of 18 (6 archer, 5 favoured, 7 bane) damage. That's 8 more damage.
3) https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Mounted_archery (There might be a bug with mounted combat that gives you 1 ab when you're ranged, when it shouldn't, which even so puts you at -1.)
30% max movement speed still necessitates the use of haste in combat. It's a bit of an advantage, I admit, but given the larger hitbox and requirement to haste anyway it amounts to a complete detriment.
4) Stealth doesn't necessitate immobility, or being in anyones range.

Very wonky.

1) Sounds like you're considering low AC PvE targets and not PvP. In PvP, higher AB is always king. PvE is negligible.
2) If you're going by 21 Ranger, yes, like I said, you have slightly more damage vs CERTAIN enemies, not all enemies. I consider the damage bonus to be less, because most AA builds will take at least 5 Ranger levels, giving them at least +2 damage from Archer. Secondly, is your ranger dipped into Fighter? Because most AA builds dip fighter for Epic Weapon Focus. Having +2 or +4 more damage on average vs specified races is negligible. The AB bonus from AA is far superior in killing power.
3) Arelith has disabled the -4 AB penalty that one gets for using ranged weapons on horses. Mounted Archery brings the AB penalty for ranged weapons on horses from -4 to -2 (AKA a +2 bonus). If the AB penalty for ranged weapons on horses is 0, it simply gives you +2. Go ahead at test it, I use it every day! That's why most really powerful archery builds ride horses. Such as the Horse-Riding-Shuriken-Throwing-Paladin build.
3.5)Certain Horses are way faster than +30%, especially if you have maxed out ride (which you should). I am unsure whether the horse speed is capped, but I always ride as fast as hasted individuals. I believe I actually go a bit faster than them.
4) Depends on how good of a player you are in the physical NWN engine, but for most people, they end up relying on stealth to win and it ends poorly. A better, more reliable strategy is to simply run and gun on horseback with high ride skill.